Babylon, the Harlot and the Seven Headed Beast Explained.

[Revelation Man]

5 hours ago, douggg said:

Well, being the King of Israel is separate from being king 7 of the 7 kings, and then later as king 8.    The King of Israel is not any of the 7 kings in Revelation 17.    Those 7 kings are kings of the Roman Empire.

 

Not the point, you say the accept him as their Messiah, which makes him their King of Kings, because that's what Jesus is.......Now revert back to my original point.

Instead of having this IDEA, try making everything FIT, that is how I do it. Is there any way that Israel can accept the Man of Sin/Little Horn as their "King/Messiah" before they flee to the Wilderness for 1260 Days ? NO....A covenant is not a HOLY COVENANT per se just because its called a Covenant, but its just an Agreement. IF........This Anti-Christ was "ISRAELS KING/Messiah" by Acceptance, WHY WOULD HE HAVE TO INVADE THEM ? And conquer them ? After all, he was already seen by Israel (according to you all) as THEIR KING/Messiah, so why conquer Israel ? Why Invade them ? They are already calling him the Messiah so WHY ARE THEY IN SHOCK (Abomination means Shocked) ? 

Because they DON'T ACCEPT HIM AS THE MESSIAH.......It is the only answer brother. This is how I figure stuff out. You have to reason everything out. YOU SEE, IMHO, the fact that you think this Anti-Christ is going to be Israels King, takes such precedence with you, that everything else has to fit accordingly. Walk it through, clear your mind, and walk it through. 

 

[douggg]

2 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

 

2 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

Not the point, you say the accept him as their Messiah, which makes him their King of Kings, because that's what Jesus is.......Now revert back to my original point.

Where you getting these crazy ideas that the Jews are looking for someone with the title King of Kings?    The Jews are not trying to make their messiah fit Jesus.  

Go to any Jewish (Judaism) site, to them, "the" messiah is the promised great king descended from king David who will lead the Jews Israel and the world into the messianic age of peace, safety, harmony.   To them, the messiah does not have anything to do with salvation from sins.    To them, the messiah is to teach them how to keep the Torah, which to them is instructions on how to live one's live.   You keep arguing with me without doing your research on what the Jews believe about the messiah.

Go to Judaism 101.com and read about the mashiach (messiah).  http://www.jewfaq.org/mashiach.htm

I have made over 4000 posts at Judaism sites learning their beliefs over a 12 year period.     I am not trying to be disrespectful, but you don't know anything it appears in this area.     Go talk to the Jews at their sites, or watch some of You Tube videos on the messiah by Judaism speakers,and learn what they believe about the messiah.    

2 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

Instead of having this IDEA, try making everything FIT, that is how I do it. Is there any way that Israel can accept the Man of Sin/Little Horn as their "King/Messiah" before they flee to the Wilderness for 1260 Days ? NO....A covenant is not a HOLY COVENANT per se just because its called a Covenant, but its just an Agreement. IF........This Anti-Christ was "ISRAELS KING/Messiah" by Acceptance, WHY WOULD HE HAVE TO INVADE THEM ? And conquer them ? After all, he was already seen by Israel (according to you all) as THEIR KING/Messiah, so why conquer Israel ? Why Invade them ? They are already calling him the Messiah so WHY ARE THEY IN SHOCK (Abomination means Shocked) ? 

Are you even reading what I write?     The person does not become the man of sin, until after he is their King of Israel for 3 years 3 months, the first half of the seven years.      When the person reveals himself as the man of sin, the Jews quit him as being their king of Israel.     He will no longer be the Antichrist then.

The Jews will not see the person as being the little horn in Daniel 7 and 8.    They will see him, being leader of the EU, as a great politician who comes to their aid to deter Gog/Magog.     From the Judaism 101.com link -  " The mashiach will be a great political leader descended from King David (Jeremiah 23:5). "

The person does not take over the temple mount until the second half of the 7 years, the 42 months, as it says in Revelation 11:2.      He is no longer the Antichrist when that happens, but the beast in Revelation 13, that 42 months in Revelation 13:5.

Quote

Because they DON'T ACCEPT HIM AS THE MESSIAH.......It is the only answer brother. This is how I figure stuff out. You have to reason everything out. YOU SEE, YOU SEE, IMHO, the fact that you think this Anti-Christ is going to be Israels King, takes such precedence with you, that everything else has to fit accordingly. Walk it through, clear your mind, and walk it through.

 

You are not figuring anything out - because you don't have the necessary knowledge about what the Jews (Judaism) believes regarding the messiah to figure it out.    You can't, until you make an effort to educate yourself.    Go to the Judaism 101.com link I provided and read on the mashiach.

"Because they DON'T ACCEPT HIM AS THE MESSIAH.......It is the only answer brother."

What you are not getting is that they reject him as continuing as their messiah King of Israel - when he reveals himself as the man of sin.

 

 

 

 

 

[Daniel 11:36]

My comment

It is true that reformation theology falls far short of being accurate

MBG, the "woman", and the "great city" of Revelation 14:8; 17:16-18; 18 are not a picture of the RCC or any other false religion 

.... or Jerusalem

MBG is the entire world unfaithful to the Lord at the time of the end

There are two "great cities" note in Revelation's unfolding

The one described above is the core of the unbelieving world possessing dominance over the other cities of the nations

 Jerusalem is noted in Revelation 11 as the Lord's city

[Salty]

20 hours ago, douggg said:

   i hear what you are saying, Salty.    He says Rome, the EU, but for all the wrong reasons.    And Revelation Man does not believe that the person who becomes the beast is ever the King of Israel at some point - whereas I do.

What I am most objective to is his interpretation of the seven kings - as being kingdoms, and beasts.    And his claims that the mountains - represented by the seven heads - that those mountains represent kings.     It is really convoluted - which he does it to work Assyria and Egypt into the picture.    Which I say to him that Assyria and Egypt have nothing to do with Daniel 7 or the Revelation Beast.     In Revelation, it is about the fourth emprie that the little horn person comes out of.

 

Yes, I believe that the Jews will soon build another temple.     They will be probably have a interim downsized structure to get the animal sacrifices going as quickly as possible.    But I don't expect anything until after Gog/Magog.     We'll see.

 

Salty, certainly Jerusalem is a central element.   But Jerusalem is not the fourth empire which the little horn person will come out of.        

Well, I am in total agreement that the Antichrist cannot be anything else but a Jew.      For that reason the little horn person must be a Jew.    A Jew in Judaism is someone who's mother is a Jew.        The little horn will be a jew .... but will also be descended from the Julio-Claudian line of Caesars.        Although that information may never surface.    

We have to look at is where the person starts out - which is the leader EU.     After Gog/Magog, it is then that the Jews will think that he is their messiah and will be instrumental in either building a temple of sorts or completing it, so the animal sacrifices can begin again.

The EU is not in the ten leader form yet.    But that will come shortly.     That's one of the things to watch for.

The Pope is certainly not qualified to become the Antichrist.     So we can scratch the historist view.

The other issue we have is what about the person who is currently in the bottomless pit in Revelation 17:8a.    Who is that person?    That is where I think the passages referring to the "Assyrian" indicate who.      It is a good chance that the person was when he was alive - Nimrod.      Of course, that would necessitate that Nimrod have some Nephilim gene in him.     Currently in unclean spirit form, disembodied; Nimrod the Assyrian will enter the person once the person comes back alive from being mortally wounded in Revelation 13.... that is possess him.

Here is a copy and paste of a post I made at another site that pretty much explains why I think the little horn will be the Antichrist, then the revealed man of sin, then the beast.....

It is the same person because of the time frames and characteristics in the end times bible passages are consistent as the person progresses between the different roles found in the different passages.

1. the prince who shall come confirms the covenant for seven years. Daniel 9:26-27.

2. the leader(s) of Israel are responsible to confirm the covenant per Deuteronomy 31:9-13 for seven years.

3. the human leader of Israel is the man-King of Israel, 1Samuel10:19

the prince who shall come is anointed the King of Israel, and is given a crown, the rider on the white horse, Revelation 6:2, Jesus the true King of Israel riding a white horse in Revelation 19:11

4. in the middle of the seven years, the person violates the covenant. Daniel 9:27, stopping the daily sacrifice.

5. the little horn in Daniel 8 violates the covenant by committing the transgression desolation. Daniel 8:12-13. stopping the daily sacrifice.

6. the revealed man of sin in sits in the temple of God claiming to be God - the transgression of desolation. 2Thessalonians2:4

7. the little horn in Daniel 8:25 magnifies himself in his heart

8. the prince of Tyre (code name for the person) magnifies himself in his heart, Ezekiel 28:6, sits in the seat of God, Ezekiel 28:2, claiming to be God. God has him killed. Brings him, the terrible of the nations, down to the pit, Ezekiel 28:7, Isaiah 14:16. The little horn person is killed, for the transgression of desolation act. The head on the beast in Revelation 13:3 is mortally wounded.

9. once in hell, and taunted, the person is cast out of the grave, Isaiah 14:19-20 because he destroys his people and his land, likened as the abominable branch - Jesus the righteous branch, the person is a Jew and the Antichrist gone bad. God, in disdain for the person, kicks the person out of the grave bringing him back to life. The recovered head on the beast in Revelation 13:3. He rules the world for 42 months, the second half of the seven years. Revelation 13:5

10. satan is cast down to earth with a time, times, half times left. Revelation 12:14.

11. satan gives his power to the beast, Revelation 13:2

12. the little horn persecutes the saints for a time, times, half times Daniel 7:25 - possessed by the unclean spirit ascending out of the bottomless pit - as the eighth king of the fourth kingdom.

13. until God passes judgement on the possessed little horn person in Daniel 7:26-28 and Revelation 19:20

 

Pretty much agree with most of that.

Where I differ from most is on that is I believe strongly that the coming Antichrist/pseudo-Christ, and king, will be Satan himself, de facto in person right here on earth in our dimension.

I do not believe any flesh born man is coming to work those great signs, wonders, and miracles we're told about concerning the coming Antichrist. I believe only Satan will be able to do that here on earth and deceive the whole world into worshipping him as God.

I beleive when Rev.12 says there is no more place in Heaven for Satan when he is booted down to this earth that means he is coming here in our dimension, literally, with his angels, just like in the days of Noah with how the "sons of God" came to earth.

[Salty]

18 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

This is unbelievable.....You really can't grasp that a catching away, snatching away means the Rapture ? What it is, it destroys the 1830's hogwash, and so it is just pushed to the side and we are supposed to pretend that the Rapture doesn't mean a SNATCHING AWAY, even though it does. 

So now you're trying to put words in my mouth, inferring things I NEVER said nor intimated. Instead, I told you just of the opposite of that, but with the Truth of how you people (pre-tribbers) abuse the word 'rapture' with the unlearned by NOT including the idea of Pre-tribulational event with it!

Your bad intent has thus confirmed your propensity towards bearing false witness.

 

[Revelation Man]

On 1/9/2017 at 6:55 PM, douggg said:

On 1/9/2017 at 6:32 PM, Revelation Man said:

So all I have to do is work on the Seven Kings portion to get you to see my point hey ?

It would be a tremedous help, imo.

Here you go, take your time here, I took a while putting this together.

Revelation 17:10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space. 

Greek word used here is EISI, meaning third person plural present indicative of G1510 THEY ARE.......

Third person plural present indicative of G1510; they are:—agree, are, be, dure, X is, were.

#1526. ει᾿σι´, eisi; third pers. pl. pres. ind. of 1510, q.v.

Now allow me to walk you through the chapter in a methodical manner. There is no use in us repeating our same entrenched understandings without at least trying to come to an understanding.

Revelation 17 Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)

The Woman and the Scarlet Beast

17 Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls came and spoke with me: “Come, I will show you the judgment of the notorious prostitute[a] who sits on many waters. 2 The kings of the earth committed sexual immorality with her, and those who live on the earth became drunk on the wine of her sexual immorality.” 3 So he carried me away in the Spirit[c] to a desert. I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast that was covered[d] with blasphemous names and had seven heads and 10 horns. 4 The woman was dressed in purple and scarlet, adorned with gold, precious stones, and pearls. She had a gold cup in her hand filled with everything vile and with the impurities of her[e] prostitution. 5 On her forehead a cryptic name was written:

BABYLON THE GREAT

THE MOTHER OF PROSTITUTES

AND OF THE VILE THINGS OF THE EARTH.

6 Then I saw that the woman was drunk on the blood of the saints and on the blood of the witnesses to Jesus. When I saw her, I was greatly astonished.

{{{ John sees a vision of this prostitute being Judged and she is on many waters (peoples/nations/tongues) The kings have committed fornication with her and drank of her immoral wine (EVIL WAYS). John also saw her sitting on (intermingled with) a scarlet colored beast with seven heads AND 10 horns. The prostitute was also dressed in scarlet and adorned with lavish decorations, the colors represent royalty and religious sects, the golden cup of abominations is basically a picture of Daniel chapter 5. God was angry with Belshazzar for drinking from His Holy chalices, and took his kingdom away.  

There was a Mysterious/Secret name on her head, Mystery....................Babylon the Great, Mother of Prostitutes, And Abominations of the Earth. Then John SAW the woman drunk with the blood of Christians and saints, and a was greatly amazed astonished. 

This is the VISION JOHN SAW............Nothing else.

 

The Meaning of the Woman and of the Beast

7 Then the angel said to me, “Why are you astonished? I will tell you the secret meaning of the woman and of the beast, with the seven heads and the 10 horns, that carries her. 8 The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to come up from the abyss and go to destruction.Those who live on the earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world will be astonished when they see the beast that was, and is not, and will be present again.

9 “Here is the mind with wisdom:[f] The seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman is seated. 10 They are also seven kings:[g] Five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come, and when he comes, he must remain for a little while. 11 The beast that was and is not, is himself an eighth king, yet he belongs to the seven and is going to destruction. 12 The 10 horns you saw are 10 kings who have not yet received a kingdom, but they will receive authority as kings with the beast for one hour. 13 These have one purpose, and they give their power and authority to the beast. 14 These will make war against the Lamb, but the Lamb will conquer them because He is Lord of lords and King of kings. Those with Him are called, chosen, and faithful.”

15 He also said to me, “The waters you saw, where the prostitute was seated, are peoples, multitudes, nations, and languages. 16 The 10 horns you saw, and the beast, will hate the prostitute. They will make her desolate and naked, devour her flesh, and burn her up with fire. 17 For God has put it into their hearts to carry out His plan by having one purpose and to give their kingdom[h] to the beast until God’s words are accomplished. 18 And the woman you saw is the great city that has an empire over the kings of the earth.”

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Now lets walk our way through the 7 Kings. The Woman is sitting on a Seven headed beast with 10 Horns. Now here is proof the Seven heads are the Beast Kingdoms. Why is there only 10 Horns ? In Daniel there is 11 Horns, because another Little Horn arises with the 10 Horns, so where is the missing horn ? He is ONE OF THE HEADS of course, because the heads represent the Seven Beast Kingdoms, the 10 horns are sitting on HIS HEAD. But in Daniel, the Little Horn and the 10 horns are shown coming up from the fourth beasts head, hence the Little Horn is of course a Beast himself, he just arises out of the fourth beasts territory. 

Now as to who the Seven Kings are, John is saying that the Seven Mountains are the Seven Kings..........9 “Here is the mind with wisdom:[f] The seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman is seated. 10 They are also seven kings:[g] Five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come, and when he comes, he must remain for a little while.

The SEVEN HEADS are SEVEN MOUNTAINS and THEY ARE SEVEN KINGS.

Satan is the 8th King and is over the Seven Kings. 

The Seven Kings are the Seven Heads on the Beast, Revelation 17 clearly says so. 

 

[douggg]

1 hour ago, Revelation Man said:

Now lets walk our way through the 7 Kings. The Woman is sitting on a Seven headed beast with 10 Horns. Now here is proof the Seven heads are the Beast Kingdoms. Why is there only 10 Horns ? In Daniel there is 11 Horns, because another Little Horn arises with the 10 Horns, so where is the missing horn ? He is ONE OF THE HEADS of course, because the heads represent the Seven Beast Kingdoms, the 10 horns are sitting on HIS HEAD. But in Daniel, the Little Horn and the 10 horns are shown coming up from the fourth beasts head, hence the Little Horn is of course a Beast himself, he just arises out of the fourth beasts territory. 

The ten horns in Daniel 7 and Revelation 17 are kings, right?    I think you will agree.

The little horn in Revelation is one of the heads.    Why a head and not a horn?    Because the little horn in Daniel 7:24 it says is different than the other ten.    Because he is descended from the Julio-Claudians; the other ten kings are not.     The 7 heads are 7 Julio-Claudian kings of the Roman Empire.      The ten kings we don't know about their nationality nor their ancestor's.

24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.

 

[douggg]

1 hour ago, Revelation Man said:

Satan is the 8th King and is over the Seven Kings. 

Satan is not the 8th king.    The 8th king will be the 7th king come back to life and possessed by the unclean spirit currently in the bottomless pit called the beast.

[Revelation Man]

2 hours ago, douggg said:

The ten horns in Daniel 7 and Revelation 17 are kings, right?    I think you will agree.

 

Exactly.............

2 hours ago, douggg said:

The little horn in Revelation is one of the heads.    Why a head and not a horn? 

Because he is a BEAST.........Just like the Beasts of Daniel, except God wanted us to know this last Beast, is a mere man, thus God changed the Beast Kingdoms to mere Kings ON PURPOSE, to let us know what to look for. We are wise enough brother, because of God, to not look for a Kingdom per se, but for a man who is a dictator of a 10 Nation Confederation.....We know this man is going to rule violently, but he will have no successor to pass his Kingdom to, because when he is overthrown by Jesus Christ and his Army/and Us Saints, the Anti-Christs Kingdom will be no more. 

 

2 hours ago, douggg said:

Because the little horn in Daniel 7:24 it says is different than the other ten.    Because he is descended from the Julio-Claudians; the other ten kings are not.     The 7 heads are 7 Julio-Claudian kings of the Roman Empire.      The ten kings we don't know about their nationality nor their ancestor's.

24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.

The different than the others is speaking about the Fourth Beast being different from the other three. Type in Pax-Romanus and read why Rome was so different than the other 3. It has been said that without Pax-Romanus, the Gospel would not have had a chance getting off the ground (God uses whom He will) because all Roads lead to Rome, so all me in all Countries could travel freely. And they used a COMMON LANGUAGE, Greek Koine, thus the Greek Bible, thus it was SPREAD throughout the Region. This all happened because of Pax=Romanus.  Thus my point to you many times, there is a Fourth Beast and a Fifth Beast in Daniel 7. There are two more Beasts that Conquered Israel also. 

The Bible is about Israel, NOT ROME..............Those Roman Kings mean nothing to God. As per the verse 24, let me delve into this again, carefully, with four verses.

Daniel 7:7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, (Rome) dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it;....................................and it had ten horns.

8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.

Daniel 7:23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.

24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.

In verse 23, we Rome via the Pax-Romanus, it of course was the King/Beast and Johns time in Rev. 17. Then we see the Anti-Chrit arises amongst 10 Kings, which arise from the Fourth Beasts Heads or out of the Fourth Beasts Territory. This Little Horn/Anti-Christ will be DIFFERENT FROM THE FIRST.........................From the first what Douggg ?  From the First Beast that arose from Rome/Europe, which was the Fourth Beast. 

This is so clear brother, I just learned something big time, this is why I love the back and forth of harmonious discussion.....Notice Douggg, Daniel 8 and Daniel 24 tell us 100 percent that these are TWO BEASTS.........Verse 8 says that the Fourth Beast was different from ALL THE BEASTS that were before it............BOOM........Verse 24 tells us that the Little Horn/Anti-Christ will be different from the FIRST BEAST....................Not ALL THE BEASTS. It is two different Beasts, arising 2000 years apart, and the Little Horn/A.C. will be different from the FIRST BEAST [of Rome]. Its very clear brother. 

This is why there are only 10 Horns with the Seven Heads. We have the the Heads figured out, and then we have the 10 Horns. The Anti-Christ is the Seventh Head. 

 

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2 hours ago, douggg said:

Satan is not the 8th king.    The 8th king will be the 7th king come back to life and possessed by the unclean spirit currently in the bottomless pit called the beast.

Satan is LORD over all Dark forces, so he is the ultimate King.  There is no 8th King only a 7th King. The Man of Sin is killed by Jesus. The fact that it tells us the 8th King was of the 7 is a major clue, he is Demonic in Nature, and has Ruled all 7 Kings that conquered Israel. This is usually not that big a deal to me, if its Satan, Apollyon, etc. etc, it doesn't matter, it is only a Demonic dark force. It is what it is, but it basically will have no effect on me, seeing as I will be in Heaven at the time, marrying Jesus.

AMEN...........

[douggg]

2 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

..Verse 24 tells us that the Little Horn/Anti-Christ will be different from the FIRST BEAST..

No, it is telling us that the little horn is different from the ten horns that arise before it.    The ten horns are the ten kings.

24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another [king - the little horn] shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first [ten kings - horns], and he shall subdue three kings.

The little horn is different because he is a Julio-Claudian.     There are no 7 heads on the Daniel 7 beast.    The 7 heads on the Revelation beast are there to show that the little horn in Daniel 7 is a head in the Revelation beast.... and why the little horn is different from the ten horns.      He is different because he is the 7th Julio Claudian Caesar to rule the Roman Empire.

The ten kings are not Julio-Claudian Caesar descendants.