Jesus only “knows” believers who are obedient

[Guest Thallasa]

12 hours ago, Willa said:

The teachings of Christ are clear.  We are to Love God with all our hearts, souls, strength and minds.  We should love one another.  They shall know that we are His disciples if we love one another.  

God has given us new hearts that have these things written on them.  When we walk after the Spirit we walk in godly love and compassion and are not under the law.  

2Co 13:5  AMP Examine and test and evaluate your own selves to see whether you are holding to your faith and showing the proper fruits of it. Test and prove yourselves [not Christ and not each other]. Do you not yourselves realize and know [thoroughly by an ever-increasing experience] that Jesus Christ is in you—unless you are [counterfeits] disapproved on trial and rejected?

I added the and not each other.  We seem often to be trying to dislodge the speck from our brothers eyes  while trying to see through the logs in our own.

As always Willa , so clear ,and to the 'heart'  of the matter .

[Guest Thallasa]

8 hours ago, Cletus said:

We could speak about legalism. However i would much rather speak on attitude of the heart.  Here is a good scripture.  For a just man falleth seven times, and riseth up again: but the wicked shall fall into mischief.
When we fall do we kick our conscious to the curb or do we have remorse?  Or do we wallow in guilt doubt and self loathing pity? 

There is a difference between trying to be good and doing what is right in our own eyes. 

Obedience is important yes, but it comes from walking with God when He shows us something we are doing He disapproves of.  We dont obey so God approves of us.  Once someone is saved when The Father looks at us, all He sees is Jesus. 

in fact there is nothing good in the flesh.  The only reason we would even want to obey is because He makes us want to, He gives us that desire.

Just-if-ied (never sinned)

 hankyou Cletus ,could you give verse and chapter for the quote ,"For a just man falleth 7 times ,and riseth up again  : but the wicked shall fall into mischief "? 

[ZacharyB]

15 hours ago, Yowm said:

For as by one man's disobedience (Adam) many were made sinners (us),

so by the obedience of one (Jesus) shall many be made righteous (us). (Rom 5:19)

Yes of course, Jesus obeyed the Father's ultimatum and did what He agreed to do.

Through His obedience, words, actions, death, etc., Jesus saved many!

It's all in how Scripture is viewed ... correctly or incorrectly.

With openness being led by the Spirit, or with horrible destructive biases.

 

[ZacharyB]

15 hours ago, Willa said:

   We seem often to be trying to dislodge the speck from our brothers eyes, while trying to see through the logs in our own.

We often to be trying to teach others spiritual Truth, while trying to save them from Hell.

[ZacharyB]

14 hours ago, OneLight said:

How does Ephesians 2:8-10 fit into your above declaration?

For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

Saved by grace through faith, IF that faith continues.

But, how does true saving belief-faith reveal (prove) itself.

The NT says, "through obedience" and enduring in faith until the end of life.

The easiest example for me now is: disobedience proves unbelief (Hebrews 3).

Edited February 8, 2017 by ZacharyB

[ZacharyB]

12 hours ago, Blessed_Monk said:

This opening post is very disconcerting. It makes out that God's love is conditional. And I didn't see in John 3:16 that part where it says, that whosoever is obedient to him shall not perish but have everlasting life.

Yes, the whole Truth is very disconcerting indeed.

WHOEVER believes has been enabled to believe when God gave him/her a little seed of faith to believe.

How can I help the Laodicean church (Rev 3) to see and understand ...

how it has been so deceived by Satan and its' deceived and/or selfish and greedy leaders?

 

Edited February 8, 2017 by ZacharyB

[Blessed_Monk]

12 hours ago, missmuffet said:

Jesus knows everyone on earth. He knows their heart. He knows every detail about them. If a person genuinely asks Jesus Christ into their life they have a one way ticket to heaven and are saved.They are a born again believer. No one can fool God He knows it all

Wise words.

[OneLight]

1 hour ago, ZacharyB said:

Saved by grace through faith, IF that faith continues.

But, how does true saving belief-faith reveal (prove) itself.

The NT says, "through obedience" and enduring in faith until the end of life.

The easiest example for me now is: disobedience proves unbelief (Hebrews 3).

There has been nobody outside of Jesus that is perfect in all their ways.  Even you disobey from time to time as you are not Christ Jesus, so your legalistic ways are self-defeating.

Jesus tells us we will be known by our fruit.  If we do the works that He sets before us, we will good fruit.  If not, we will have bad fruit.  As for proving someone is saved, again, we will know as we see Christ in them, forever changing from the old man to the new man.

Please show me where in scripture it tells us that it is our obedience that salvation is obtained!  I gave you proof that scripture tells us that by grace through faith.  Tell me, do you ignore Ephesians 2:8-10 or are you saying it is not true?

Please show me where in Hebrews 3 we are told that if we disobey we no longer believe.  Let me make it easier for you.

Hebrews 3New King James Version (NKJV)

3 Therefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our confession, Christ Jesus, 2 who was faithful to Him who appointed Him, as Moses also was faithful in all His house. 3 For this One has been counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as He who built the house has more honor than the house. 4 For every house is built by someone, but He who built all things is God. 5 And Moses indeed was faithful in all His house as a servant, for a testimony of those things which would be spoken afterward, 6 but Christ as a Son over His own house, whose house we are if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm to the end.[a]

7 Therefore, as the Holy Spirit says:

“Today, if you will hear His voice,
8 Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion,
In the day of trial in the wilderness,
9 Where your fathers tested Me, tried Me,
And saw My works forty years.
10 Therefore I was angry with that generation,
And said, ‘They always go astray in their heart,
And they have not known My ways.’
11 So I swore in My wrath,
‘They shall not enter My rest.’”

12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; 13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, 15 while it is said:

“Today, if you will hear His voice,
Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion.”[c]

16 For who, having heard, rebelled? Indeed, was it not all who came out of Egypt, led by Moses? 17 Now with whom was He angry forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose corpses fell in the wilderness? 18 And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who did not obey? 19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

Footnotes:

Hebrews 3:6 NU-Text omits firm to the end.

Hebrews 3:11 Psalm 95:7–11

Hebrews 3:15 Psalm 95:7, 8

[Willa]

I  am wary of fruit inspectors.  We are told to examine ourselves.  Even 1 John is written to help us to know if WE are believers, not you.  It tells us to test the spirits to see if they are of God.  And the Word tells us how to recognize false teachers.  It is true that if we see a brother fall into blatant sin such as fornication or adultery, or extortion or false testimony, we are to go to him personally and plead with him, reason with him in spirit of compassion--not judgement.  And then bring someone with us, and finally a pastor.  

I don't see that making blanket accusation accomplishes this.  It comes off as a condemning spirit whether it was meant that way or not.  When taken in context most of these texts are done in hopes of bringing people to salvation such as the Pharasees who were trying to trip up Jesus, or of restoration of an individual, such as when Paul upbraided the Corinthian church for being so "liberal and inclusive" in not kicking out the guy who was sleeping with his fathers wife.  

But when the bulk of Worthy is upbraided in general with no one in mind, I see no purpose in this.  Jimmy Swaggart used to preach that way while hiding his sin.  This type of preaching always sailed over my head and landed on the sinner in back of me.  Never me.  So it taught me self righteousness, but the Holy Spirit was not using it to convict me.  It only made me defensive.  Eventually God broke down my defenses by humor when I learned to laugh at how ridiculous some attitudes were, and the Holy Spirit stuck His bony finger in my ribs while I was laughing at someone else and said "that's you!".  So each of us is different in how God deals with us.  Perhaps there are  people who need to be upbraided like in the OP, but I have never met anyone in whom it was effective.  One just said that if he was going to hell anyway, he might as well do it in a big way.  He has never returned to church in 30 years.  So sad, the damage done by a condemning spirit.  The Holy Spirit must empower such words to bring people to repentance.  If He has used a rant like this in someone's life here, I would like to hear them confess it so they can be restored and forgiven.  I would hope that such people would come to repentance as well.  Otherwise it is vain accusations.

 Again, Satan is the accuser of the Brethren.  We want to be sure we are speaking God's loving accepting words and not being used by the enemy.  Many people fool themselves into thinking that telling people off and pointing out all the shortcomings they see (and we all have them), that this is love and doing God's work.  It only serves to wound them and I have yet to see the fruit of Godly love in it all.  Some people feel betrayed.  Most just feel condemned and ostracized.  

We are all God's work in progress.  We should speak words that edify one another and build them up in the faith, encouraging them for the things they are doing right like praying, reading God's Word, drawing close with Him and walking after the Holy Spirit as He leads us and works through us.

Blessings,

Willa

[OneLight]

29 minutes ago, Willa said:

I  am wary of fruit inspectors.  We are told to examine ourselves.  Even 1 John is written to help us to know if WE are believers, not you.  It tells us to test the spirits to see if they are of God.  And the Word tells us how to recognize false teachers.  It is true that if we see a brother fall into blatant sin such as fornication or adultery, or extortion or false testimony, we are to go to him personally and plead with him, reason with him in spirit of compassion--not judgement.  And then bring someone with us, and finally a pastor.  

I don't see that making blanket accusation accomplishes this.  It comes off as a condemning spirit whether it was meant that way or not.  When taken in context most of these texts are done in hopes of bringing people to salvation such as the Pharasees who were trying to trip up Jesus, or of restoration of an individual, such as when Paul upbraided the Corinthian church for being so "liberal and inclusive" in not kicking out the guy who was sleeping with his fathers wife.  

But when the bulk of Worthy is upbraided in general with no one in mind, I see no purpose in this.  Jimmy Swaggart used to preach that way while hiding his sin.  This type of preaching always sailed over my head and landed on the sinner in back of me.  Never me.  So it taught me self righteousness, but the Holy Spirit was not using it to convict me.  It only made me defensive.  Eventually God broke down my defenses by humor when I learned to laugh at how ridiculous some attitudes were, and the Holy Spirit stuck His bony finger in my ribs while I was laughing at someone else and said "that's you!".  So each of us is different in how God deals with us.  Perhaps there are  people who need to be upbraided like in the OP, but I have never met anyone in whom it was effective.  One just said that if he was going to hell anyway, he might as well do it in a big way.  He has never returned to church in 30 years.  So sad, the damage done by a condemning spirit.  The Holy Spirit must empower such words to bring people to repentance.  If He has used a rant like this in someone's life here, I would like to hear them confess it so they can be restored and forgiven.  I would hope that such people would come to repentance as well.  Otherwise it is vain accusations.

 Again, Satan is the accuser of the Brethren.  We want to be sure we are speaking God's loving accepting words and not being used by the enemy.  Many people fool themselves into thinking that telling people off and pointing out all the shortcomings they see (and we all have them), that this is love and doing God's work.  It only serves to wound them and I have yet to see the fruit of Godly love in it all.  Some people feel betrayed.  Most just feel condemned and ostracized.  

We are all God's work in progress.  We should speak words that edify one another and build them up in the faith, encouraging them for the things they are doing right like praying, reading God's Word, drawing close with Him and walking after the Holy Spirit as He leads us and works through us.

Blessings,

Willa

Fruit inspectors ... first time I heard it put that way.  Why do you think knowing people by their fruits is considered judgmental?  Didn't Jesus tell his followers ...

Matthew 7:15-20

Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Therefore by their fruits you will know them.

Seems to me this is an observation, not a judgment.