Why I am a Post-Millennialist

[Marcus O'Reillius]

1 hour ago, seeking the lost said:

No doubt the Greek is correct.  It is the order that is important.  Tares are collected and  burned first.  After this the wheat is gathered. 

Reading skill?  To be burned.  The tares are collected to be burned in the field of this world.  The tares start and end in the world.

The wheat is gathered unto the barn (of Heaven - not of this world). 

The tares could not be individually picked out from the wheat without harming the wheat - fact.

SO: the tares cannot be burned wholesale in the field where the wheat remains -in your reading- without again harming the wheat.

Since the wheat is harvested, no harm should come to the crop.  We are not to suffer God's Wrath as Paul says in 1Th 1:10:

...and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, that is Jesus, who rescues us from the wrath to come.

1. The midpoint of the one 'seven' abomination spoken of by Daniel happens.
2. Then there is the Great Tribulation.
3. Which is shortened by the sun/moon/star event heralding the Day of the Lord - (tie in to the sixth Seal).
4. The Resurrection of the Dead in Christ comes about with the Last Trumpet (a named Trumpet blown by God).
5. Jesus comes on the clouds with those Resurrected from Paradise.
6. Jesus with those Saints harvests the wheat: the Rapture of the Elect who remain and are left after the shortened Great Tribulation.
7. Then the Wrath of God comes on the second half of the Day of the Lord with the first Trumpet (a numbered Trumpet blown by an Angel).
8. And the subsequent Wrath of God happens until the final battle of the one 'seven' at Armageddon.

I can provide references for each event from the Olivet Discourse, the broad overview of the Seals and the Scroll in Revelation in Rev 4-11 (exclusive), Paul's explanation in 1st Thessalonians, and the detailed parallel account of just the one 'seven' in Rev 13-16 (inclusive).

[seeking the lost]

46 minutes ago, Marcus O'Reillius said:

Reading skill?  To be burned.  The tares are collected to be burned in the field of this world.  The tares start and end in the world.

The wheat is gathered unto the barn (of Heaven - not of this world). 

Yes reading skills. 

The Parable of the Weeds

24 Jesus told them another parable: “The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field. 25 But while everyone was sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat, and went away. 26 When the wheat sprouted and formed heads, then the weeds also appeared.

27 “The owner’s servants came to him and said, ‘Sir, didn’t you sow good seed in your field? Where then did the weeds come from?’

28 “‘An enemy did this,’ he replied.

“The servants asked him, ‘Do you want us to go and pull them up?’

29 “‘No,’ he answered, ‘because while you are pulling the weeds, you may uproot the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn.’”

The fullness of this is Revelation 14.  

Harvesting the Earth and Trampling the Winepress

14 I looked, and there before me was a white cloud, and seated on the cloud was one like a son of man with a crown of gold on his head and a sharp sickle in his hand. 15 Then another angel came out of the temple and called in a loud voice to him who was sitting on the cloud, “Take your sickle and reap, because the time to reap has come, for the harvest of the earth is ripe.” 16 So he who was seated on the cloud swung his sickle over the earth, and the earth was harvested.

17 Another angel came out of the temple in heaven, and he too had a sharp sickle. 18 Still another angel, who had charge of the fire, came from the altar and called in a loud voice to him who had the sharp sickle, “Take your sharp sickle and gather the clusters of grapes from the earth’s vine, because its grapes are ripe.” 19 The angel swung his sickle on the earth, gathered its grapes and threw them into the great wine press of God’s wrath. 20 They were trampled in the wine press outside the city, and blood flowed out of the press, rising as high as the horses’ bridles for a distance of 1,600 stadia.[c]

The tare are dealt with first.  The wheat is not lifted up for the burning to occur.

[Marcus O'Reillius]

2 hours ago, seeking the lost said:

The tare are dealt with first.  The wheat is not lifted up for the burning to occur.

Yes! I absolutely question your reading skills!

Jesus "reaping" the earth - LIFTS up those who are alive and remain (after the Great Tribulation begun in Rev 13:15) to join those He brings with them from the grave ON THE CLOUDS!  That is what Paul explains.  And those who do so are the second to be with Jesus: the Dead in Christ precede them, and come with Jesus when He arrives - on the clouds!

Rapture: Harvest of the Wheat:
Then I looked, and behold, a white cloud, and sitting on the cloud was one like a son of man, having a golden crown on His head and a sharp sickle in His hand. And another angel came out of the temple, crying out with a loud voice to Him who sat on the cloud, Put in your sickle and reap, for the hour to reap has come, because the harvest of the earth is ripe. Then He who sat on the cloud swung His sickle over the earth, and the earth was reaped.

The Harvest from the cloud is exactly what Jesus said in the Olivet Discourse, and what Paul taught the Thessalonians.
THEN:

Wrath - burning the tares, literally - in the field of this world!
And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, and he also had a sharp sickle. Then another angel, the one who has power over fire, came out from the altar; and he called with a loud voice to him who had the sharp sickle, saying, Put in your sharp sickle and gather the clusters from the vine of the earth, because her grapes are ripe. So the angel swung his sickle to the earth and gathered the clusters from the vine of the earth, and threw them into the great wine press of the wrath of God. And the wine press was trodden outside the city, and blood came out from the wine press, up to the horses bridles, for a distance of two hundred miles.

This marries with Mt 13 where the tares are collected - to be burned - and the wheat is taken to the barn (of Heaven) just as the Great Multitude show up IN HEAVEN before the first Trumpet of God's Wrath - which includes fire as the first element - goes forth to bring desolation upon the earth where the arrogant and proud defy God.

Blood, another element of the Day of the Lord is revealed here to in conjunction with the fire as is expressed in Rev chapter 8 with the first Trumpet as well.

Pre-Wrath gets the order right, and it is the only eschatological system of thought which is in harmony with Scripture holistically, and does not rely on a single passage or verse, or even a word. (i.e., like those who just shout "Last means last", and then proceed to think they know when the Day of the Lord will come - on the "last" day of the one 'seven'.)

[seeking the lost]

1 hour ago, Marcus O'Reillius said:

Yes! I absolutely question your reading skills!

Jesus "reaping" the earth - LIFTS up those who are alive and remain (after the Great Tribulation begun in Rev 13:15) to join those He brings with them from the grave ON THE CLOUDS!  That is what Paul explains.  And those who do so are the second to be with Jesus: the Dead in Christ precede them, and come with Jesus when He arrives - on the clouds!

Rapture: Harvest of the Wheat:
Then I looked, and behold, a white cloud, and sitting on the cloud was one like a son of man, having a golden crown on His head and a sharp sickle in His hand. And another angel came out of the temple, crying out with a loud voice to Him who sat on the cloud, Put in your sickle and reap, for the hour to reap has come, because the harvest of the earth is ripe. Then He who sat on the cloud swung His sickle over the earth, and the earth was reaped.

The Harvest from the cloud is exactly what Jesus said in the Olivet Discourse, and what Paul taught the Thessalonians.
THEN:

Wrath - burning the tares, literally - in the field of this world!
And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, and he also had a sharp sickle. Then another angel, the one who has power over fire, came out from the altar; and he called with a loud voice to him who had the sharp sickle, saying, Put in your sharp sickle and gather the clusters from the vine of the earth, because her grapes are ripe. So the angel swung his sickle to the earth and gathered the clusters from the vine of the earth, and threw them into the great wine press of the wrath of God. And the wine press was trodden outside the city, and blood came out from the wine press, up to the horses bridles, for a distance of two hundred miles.

This marries with Mt 13 where the tares are collected - to be burned - and the wheat is taken to the barn (of Heaven) just as the Great Multitude show up IN HEAVEN before the first Trumpet of God's Wrath - which includes fire as the first element - goes forth to bring desolation upon the earth where the arrogant and proud defy God.

Blood, another element of the Day of the Lord is revealed here to in conjunction with the fire as is expressed in Rev chapter 8 with the first Trumpet as well.

Pre-Wrath gets the order right, and it is the only eschatological system of thought which is in harmony with Scripture holistically, and does not rely on a single passage or verse, or even a word. (i.e., like those who just shout "Last means last", and then proceed to think they know when the Day of the Lord will come - on the "last" day of the one 'seven'.)

Do not worry about your reading skills.  Your lack of ability is made up for by your ability to read things that are not there.  If you can show me a specific test that expressly identifies a resurrection (like the sea giving up its dead)then I will not say that you are in danger.    If you are reading into the text because you do not want to suffer a greater suffering awaits you.  It was the foolish virgins that were not ready for the delayed coming.  They did not prepare with or for patient endurance.

[Marcus O'Reillius]

4 hours ago, seeking the lost said:

Do not worry about your reading skills...  ...They did not prepare with or for patient endurance.

Nothing specific on Scripture? 

My lack of ability?

Reading into the text because I don't want to suffer?

Do you understand anything I said?

Do you even understand what Pre-Wrath is about?

Do you understand that patient endurance will be required during the Great Tribulation?

Seriously... seeking the lost - you're really not going to be able to help them.

[seeking the lost]

12 hours ago, Marcus O'Reillius said:

Nothing specific on Scripture? 

My lack of ability?

Reading into the text because I don't want to suffer?

Do you understand anything I said?

Do you even understand what Pre-Wrath is about?

Do you understand that patient endurance will be required during the Great Tribulation?

Seriously... seeking the lost - you're really not going to be able to help them.

Your arguments are clear but the premise I do not think is in line with scripture.  Your tone causes me to not want to listen to you even if I thought you have something legitimate to say.  There is not a pre-wrath rapture  because there is not a pre-wrath resurrection. 

How does your pre-wrath doctrine preach in Iraq where Christians are already being killed for their faith.  Go preach it to Egypt, India, or the Philippines.  It surly will be an encouragement to them that they will miss the tribulation. 

[Daniel 11:36]

The next event on the Lord's schedule is to raise the dead and change the living of all who are associated with Him

We are currently living in 2000 years of the Lord's offering to save those of primarily the Gentiles

Once He has taken His own out of the world in a flash, He will then bring His wrath and judgment upon an unbelieving world .... today's Israel in the Middle East will also be subjected to this encounter since the nation has not yet received Him

The beginning of His judgment will encompass the 70th week of the 490 weeks of years foretold by Daniel the prophet .... 483 of them terminated and the Lord was crucified at the ending of the 69th week

The 70th week of 2520 days is still pending .... the first part of the "day of the Lord" [Revelation 6:12-17]

This time frame will lead to His millennial kingdom upon the earth .... 30 days for Armageddon and 45 days to gather those of Israel and of the Gentiles who survive .... then He will rule the earth for 1000 years

.... and then He will judge all of the dead and send them to His lake of fire [Revelation 20:11-15]

Next He will bring His eternal kingdom in a renovated universe .... new heavens and a new earth forever

Simple to understand .... hope you will be there  

 

 

[JohnD]

Since I am not in a ministry responsible for what I would otherwise teach, I will only offer my opinion.

1. Two Armageddon-type endings in Revelation does not make sense to me. (again, this is ONLY my opinion).

Rather, the same ending mentioned twice does make more sense. The literary manner of the Bible repeating things

in this fashion occurs often throughout scripture.

So IF what I suspect is true then the millennial reign of Christ is in heaven and has been occurring since his ascension. 

The Greek for "thousand" years (as I recall) is plural lit. thousands meaning it could be 1,001 years or 10,000 years.

2. The first resurrection (IMHO) is the actual resurrection of Jesus Christ himself. He is the first and only resurrected human being.

We live in the era of the first resurrection (meaning his resurrection) or "the Church Age" or "the Age of the Gentiles" saved by our faith

in Jesus and his resurrection. This is not an actual resurrection of believers (which will come when the general resurrection takes place

in the end when the dead in Christ will rise first and the few living will be changed and the rest are raised to bow to Christ and then are cast into the lake 

of fire. Technically the second resurrection (of billions).

3. The "little while" Satan is unleashed is the 70th Week of Daniel which is purposed to bring Israel back into the Messianic fold.

Whatever label and sub category that fits into, that's how I see it.

 

[Daniel 11:36]

Jesus Christ has been raised and is living in eternity .... no one else has

However, He is aware of people and the earth and is waiting for His next intervention

When He is ready He will call those of His own of both the dead and the living and these will be instantly made immortal [Revelation 3:10; 18:4]

Then He will bring judgment to the earth and the inhabitants .... 2550 days of His doing [Revelation 6:12-17]

The next humans to be resurrected will be those that turn to Him and are killed during the tribulation including His two prophets of Israel [Revelation 11]

And then He will gather the living survivors of the tribulation and separate them .... His millennial reign will then begin for 1000 years and Israel will be His abode [Revelation 20:1-4]

Satan will be imprisoned in the abyss during the period [Revelation 20:1-3]

Then Satan will be released to cause another human rebellion and the Lord will end this attempt and Satan will be destroyed in His lake if fire [Revelation 20:7-10]

Then the Lord will judge and destroy all humans who have resisted Him and send them to His lake of fire

.... and then His eternal kingdom will come for all who belong to Him

It is just that simple

 

 

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

2 hours ago, seeking the lost said:

Your arguments are clear but the premise I do not think is in line with scripture.  Your tone causes me to not want to listen to you even if I thought you have something legitimate to say.  There is not a pre-wrath rapture  because there is not a pre-wrath resurrection. 

There is nothing that will so insure a man to remain in ignorance than contempt prior to investigation.

This is a modern version of the British philosopher, William Paley, whose book Evidences of Christianity contains the following sentence: “Contempt prior to examination is an intellectual vice, from which the greatest faculties of mind are not free.” Paley was writing about Romans who scoffed at early Christianity.

Actually, Pre-Wrath derives from the sequence of events laid out in linear, prophetic narratives. 

Now I do read what you write, but so far, I can't say I agree with any of it.  Your doctrine seems very strange to me.  I see where you start, and how you compile it, and I am amazed at how you gloss over errors and read Scripture as only you can so as to get the conclusions you draw from it. 

So your opinion of my eschatology matters little to me because you can't even take the time to examine it so as to lend a constructive critique.

As I have done with the parable of the wheat and tares, showing how my interpretation meets with the wording and is buttressed by prophecy in Revelation.