Is Maryology Idolatry?

[BobRyan]

2 hours ago, inchrist said:

Then you believe in soul sleep? If your answer is no...then clearly you get this doctrine of immortal souls in scripture from some where. So now you just picking and choosing when to use this doctrine

My best advice which I gave to David, your remedy is to challenge the dead cant hear you.....on biblical legal ground you have no case. On the doctrine of immortal souls, where you protestants exclude the dead from the living church and where the catholics include the dead in the living church, thats between you guys because its simply a matter of persp

ective.

[/quote]

This Bible detail seems to argue against your suggestions above.

 

  Quote

 I can provide no scripture on the subject of "immortal souls" because there is not one. The term "immortal soul" is not in the Bible.

So also this detail 

1 Thess 4

¹³ But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. ¹⁴ For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

¹⁵ For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. ¹⁶ For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. ¹⁷ Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. ¹⁸ Therefore comfort one another with these words.

 

So also this detail 

John 11

 ¹¹ These things He said, and after that He said to them, “Our friend Lazarus sleeps, but I go that I may wake him up.” ¹² Then His disciples said, “Lord, if he sleeps he will get well.” ¹³ However, Jesus spoke of his death, but they thought that He was speaking about taking rest in sleep. ¹⁴ Then Jesus said to them plainly, “Lazarus is dead. ¹⁵ And I am glad for your sakes that I was not there, that you may believe. Nevertheless let us go to him.”

 

 

[BobRyan]

2 hours ago, inchrist said:

Sorry the law makes that difference, seeking advice. Period. 

[/quote]

The Bible says not to seek out the dead in Isaiah 8:19 as NKJV/KJV and many others remind us. Consulting the dead is one form of that.

 

You bring up the term necromancy (not me) then ask me why I bring up the term necromancy - I then remind you that I am not the one that brings up that term -- you are.

2 hours ago, inchrist said:

Of cause you are, by your very example you keep using:

 

Here

One may consult a friend or family member of pastor

 

And here

 

 Regardless - they are living. And people consult family, friends, co-workers.

Well - that is you not quoting me using the term. again.

 

2 hours ago, inchrist said:

Necromance is one who consults the dead.  What other term would you imply?

I keep saying that Isaiah 8:19 says not to "seek out the dead on behalf of the living" and you keep insisting that seeking out the dead is fine but consulting the dead is not (A distinction without a difference). These are your terms.

I then point out that I have a large inventory of official Catholic sources seeking out the dead - asking for favors of them asking for help. under the term 'communion with the Dead"

 

2 hours ago, inchrist said:

Sorry but there is only one case, there is no other case of anyone praying to a dead saint for intercession in scripture

 

Certainly it is true that Bible saints were not praying to the dead.

[BobRyan]

2 hours ago, inchrist said:

So you believe in soul sleep?

I believe the Bible just as it reads - as noted in the Bible quotes I gave - and that you quoted.

 

 I can provide no scripture on the subject of "immortal souls" because there is not one. The term "immortal soul" is not in the Bible.

So also this detail 

1 Thess 4

¹³ But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. ¹⁴ For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

¹⁵ For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. ¹⁶ For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. ¹⁷ Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. ¹⁸ Therefore comfort one another with these words.

 

So also this detail 

John 11

 ¹¹ These things He said, and after that He said to them, “Our friend Lazarus sleeps, but I go that I may wake him up.” ¹² Then His disciples said, “Lord, if he sleeps he will get well.” ¹³ However, Jesus spoke of his death, but they thought that He was speaking about taking rest in sleep. ¹⁴ Then Jesus said to them plainly, “Lazarus is dead. ¹⁵ And I am glad for your sakes that I was not there, that you may believe. Nevertheless let us go to him.”

 

Scripture vs tradition... I choose scripture where they differ with each other. 

 

Why do you find this surprising given that I am not Catholic??

Edited May 11, 2017 by BobRyan

[Guest Judas Machabeus]

Something just occurred to me. Jesus never sinned. I'm pretty sure we all agree with that, yet he spoke to Moses and Elijah at the garden and Peter not only saw them but wanted to build them huts. 

So why did Jesus speak with the dead. He was fully human, although he was fully God he was still human and subject to duet and exodus.

also they were visible to Peter, James and John. Wouldn't that cause them to stumble? Why would Jesus cause Peter to stumble? Peter had some level of interaction, he wanted to build huts for them. He could see them and hear them, so if one way communication is considered talk to the dead than Jesus caused Peter to sin, Jesus's human nature sinned. 

 

[Guest shiloh357]

1 hour ago, Judas Machabeus said:

Something just occurred to me. Jesus never sinned. I'm pretty sure we all agree with that, yet he spoke to Moses and Elijah at the garden and Peter not only saw them but wanted to build them huts. 

So why did Jesus speak with the dead. He was fully human, although he was fully God he was still human and subject to duet and exodus.

also they were visible to Peter, James and John. Wouldn't that cause them to stumble? Why would Jesus cause Peter to stumble? Peter had some level of interaction, he wanted to build huts for them. He could see them and hear them, so if one way communication is considered talk to the dead than Jesus caused Peter to sin, Jesus's human nature sinned. 

 

No, that isn't the same thing.  What the Bible prohibits is praying to the dead and asking them for their help, guidance, etc.,  like the Catholics do with Mary and dead saints.

In the Transfiguration, Moses and Elijah appear with Jesus and they speak to Jesus about his upcoming death on the cross (Luke 9:31).   Moses represented the Law and Elijah represented the prophets, and both the law and the prophets point to Jesus final sin offering on the cross for all mankind.  

Jesus was not consulting them, praying to them, or seeking their guidance/help.   So this event is not a violation of Deut. 18:11.

What's more, the problem with the Catholic heresy of praying to dead people is that it violates the eternal truth that God alone is the object of our faith and our prayers.    He is the one to whom we pray to directly.

To pray to dead saints for help, protection, guidance, prosperity, peace and so on is an insult to God who our source for those things. 

Roman Catholics are very dishonest about the nature of their prayers to saints.  When speaking to authentic followers of Jesus about what they do, they compare it asking for friends to pray for us.   But that it isn't like that at all.   When one actually takes the time to read their "prayers" one finds the substance of them to be about prayers for things that only God can give.  God does not delegate others to dispense redemptive blessings.  We go to Him alone for those things, as God does not share His glory with anyone.  

So really, one cannot trust what the Catholics say.   It's like any other cult.  Their public face doesn't really represent what they truly teach and believe.

[Fidei Defensor]

What I find puzzling, and I've been educated very-rudimentarily on Catholic Catechism, is how the Mother of God ideology entered into the Church of Rome. There is no clause or statement in Scriptures that calls Mary "mother of God" or any such titles as "Queen of Heaven," (Artemis/Ashtoreth/Ishtar/Venus/Isis title see Jeremiah 44), nor is there any mention of theotokios or redeematrix. Where did these ideas come from? They are plainly absent from Scripture. Mary only refers to herself as "Handmaiden of the Lord," (Luke 1:38, Luke 1:48).

The closest we get to any such title as "mother of god" is these verses,"When Jesus therefore saw his mother, and the disciple standing by, whom he loved, he saith unto his mother, Woman, behold thy son," (John 19:26-27) and "These all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication, with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brethren." (Acts 1:14). Now I know the idea is she is called mother, because that is her role in relationship with Jesus, but she did not conceive Jesus, the Holy Spirit did (Luke 1:26-38) and Jesus is God (Colossians 2:9) and created all things (John 1:3, Colossians 1:16). But it never explicitly calls her "Mother of God" because such a title denotes she is like deity, for Jesus only calls the Father part of Trinity, Father. Mary didn't have in part in creating Jesus, because Jesus wasn't created, He has always been (John 1:1-3, John 8:58) and created all things with Father and Holy Spirit (Genesis 1:26-28). Mary bore or carried Jesus in her womb, gave birth to him, and raised Jesus, in these respects like a mother, but she isn't a traditional mother, our mothers on earth had a hand in conceiving us, that is they were part of creating us along with our earthly fathers and the Holy Trinity forming us with both parent's D.N.A and breathing a spirit into us. Mary in contrast had no part in creating Jesus because Jesus was never created, Jesus always has been because He is God (Titus 2:13, John 17:19-23, John 1:1-19, Colossians 1:1-18, Hebrews 1 and Hebrews 2, Revelation 1:1-20) and One with Father (John 10:30, John 15:26) and Holy Spirit (John 20:21-22, John 15:26). Jesus entered into Mary via The Father and Holy Spirit (Luke 1:35).

Does anyone know how the whole Mother of God title came to be, since Scripture obviously isn't using any title, but just designation of her relationship to Jesus?

[Guest Judas Machabeus]

5 hours ago, shiloh357 said:

Jesus was not consulting them, praying to them, or seeking their guidance/help.   So this event is not a violation of Deut. 18:11.

Did not consult or seek guidance. Well neither do Catholics when they pray to Mary. 

[simplejeff]

7 hours ago, Judas Machabeus said:

Something just occurred to me. Jesus never sinned. I'm pretty sure we all agree with that, yet he spoke to Moses and Elijah at the garden and Peter not only saw them but wanted to build them huts. 

So why did Jesus speak with the dead.

He didn't.

 

[4LdKHVCzRDj2]

12 minutes ago, Judas Machabeus said:

Did not consult or seek guidance. Well neither do Catholics when they pray to Mary.

The question is why pray to Mary when Jesus explicitly told us we can ask anything in His name:

"And whatever you ask in My name, that I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.
If you ask anything in My name, I will do it." - John 14:13-14

 

And I cannot find anywhere in Scripture where we are to pray to Mary, so she could pray to Jesus for us.  As it is written:

"For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus" - 1 Timothy 2:5

[simplejeff]

8 minutes ago, inchrist said:

Catholics DO NOT, I repeat DO NOT have a two way conversation with the dead saints. 

This is true.

If , also, they DID have a two way conversation with Jesus,  and with ABBA YHWH,

they would not ever have NOR even think of having a ONE WAY conversation with anyone they thought was dead.