Why are people denying that Christ is presently a King?

[Retrobyter]

7 hours ago, Spock said:

Shabbat Shalom Marilyn,

thanks for your response.  This is one we will just have to agree to disagree. You have your verses and Shiloh showed you the verses I think rule. Honestly, this is not big enough an issue for me to pursue, so we shall see when we see, right? Hopefully in our lifetime.

cheers,

spock

Shabbat shalom, Spock.

It's a VERY big issue for me to pursue; so, if you don't mind, I'll take over....

 

[Spock]

Just now, Retrobyter said:

Shabbat shalom, Spock.

It's a VERY big issue for me to pursue; so, if you don't mind, I'll take over....

 

Have at it, brother!  Enjoy! 

[Retrobyter]

20 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi dear bro, Spock,

So commonsense ay. Yes I agree, so let`s have a look. I would like to ask you some questions and see what your commonsense tells you. First I`ll write a few scriptures concerning the Body of Christ.

`…you have come to……the general assembly. The Church of the first-born who are registered in heaven…` (Heb. 12: 23)

`For our citizenship is in heaven…` (Phil. 3: 20)

`Therefore holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling…` (Heb. 3: 1)

`…the hope which is laid up for you in heaven..` (Col. 1: 5)

`…to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you…` (1 Peter 1: 4)

 

So Spock, what does your commonsense tell you regarding these thoughts –

We know that in the millennium that         

- They will beat their swords into ploughshares & their spears into pruning-hooks, (Micah 4: 3)

- They will rebuild the old ruins & repair the ruined cities, (Isa. 61: 4)

- People live long lives but they eventually die, (Isa. 65: 20)

- People will have a plague sent among them if they do not come up to Jerusalem to celebrate the feast of Tabernacles & worship the king, (Zech. 14: 17 & 18)

- Satan will finally gather the nations and surround  Jerusalem. (Rev. 20: 7 – 9)

 

So is this the heaven you have hope for, called to, registered in & a citizen of?  

Is this the inheritance that is  `incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you,` ?

Is this where you believe you will rule & reign with Christ on His throne?

 

What does your commonsense say there bro?

Interested, Marilyn.

(BTW I am preparing notes for Shiloh too……Glad you are interested. Always good to discuss God`s word carefully together.)

 

Shabbat shalom, Marilyn.

It's not just a matter of "common sense" (as if there were any!); it's a matter of biblical interpretation and believing what you read! I am VERY passionate about this.

First, whatever version you are using for Hebrews 12:23 is not being true to the Greek in translation. The Greek wording is...

Pros Hebraious 12:22-24
22 Alla proseleeluthate Sioon orei kai polei Theou zoontos, Ierousaleem epouranioo, kai muriasin aggeloon, paneegurei
23 kai ekkleesia proototokoon apogegrommenoon en ouranois kai kritee Theoo pantoon kai pneumasi dikaioon teteleioomenoon
24 kai diatheekees neas Mesitee Ieesou kai haimati rantismou kreitton lalounti para ton Habel.
UBS The Greek New Testament

22 Alla = 22 But
proseleeluthate = ye-have-been-approaching
Sioon = Zion (Tsiown)
orei = a-mountain
kai = and
polei = a-city
Theou = of-God
zoontos, = living,
Ierousaleem = Jerusalem (Yerushalayim)
epouranioo, = of-or-belonging-to-above-the-sky
kai = and
muriasin = a-myriad
aggeloon, = of-messengers,
paneegurei = a-mass-meeting
23 kai = 23 and
ekkleesia = called-out-[group]
proototokoon = of-firstborn-[sons]
apogegrommenoon = checked-off
en = in
ouranois = [the]-sky
kai = and
kritee = a-Judge
Theoo = for-God
pantoon = of-all
kai = and
pneumasi = breaths/winds/voiced-dispositions
dikaioon = of-[the]-justified
teteleioomenoon = made-complete
24 kai = 24 and
diatheekees = a-covenant
neas = new
Mesitee = Mediator
Ieesou = Jesus (Yeshua`)
kai = and
haimati = blood
rantismou = of-sprinkling
kreitton = better-[things]
lalounti = that-speaks
para = beyond
ton = that
Habel. = of-Abel (Hevel).

While "proseleeluthate" is in the perfect tense, indicative mood, active voice, the verb itself is a PROGRESSIVE verb!

NT:4334 proserchomai (pros-er'-khom-ahee); from NT:4314 and NT:2064 (including its alternate); to approach, i.e. (literally) come near, visit, or (figuratively) worship, assent to:
KJV - (as soon as he) come (unto), come thereunto, consent, draw near, go (near, to, unto).

(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

So, it means "you have become in the process of going/coming/moving toward"; it does NOT mean "you have come to," as some MOST suggest. It most certainly does NOT mean that one has arrived!

 

In Philippians 3:20, you have conveniently YANKED this phrase out of its context:

Philippians 3:17-21
17 Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample.
18 (For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ:
19 Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.)
20 For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:
21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.
KJV

For this one, let's also look at a different version:

The New Century Version says,

Philippians 3:17-21
17 Brothers and sisters, all of you should try to follow my example and to copy those who live the way we showed you. 18 Many people live like enemies of the cross of Christ. I have often told you about them, and it makes me cry to tell you about them now. 19 In the end, they will be destroyed. They do whatever their bodies want, they are proud of their shameful acts, and they think only about earthly things. 20 But our homeland is in heaven, and we are waiting for our Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, to come from heaven. 21 By his power to rule all things, he will change our simple bodies and make them like his own glorious body. 
NCV

This gives us a TASTE of what is really being said, and of course, the key is in the word translated as "citizenship," "conversation," and "homeland," the Greek word "politeuma":

NT:4175 politeuma (pol-it'-yoo-mah); from NT:4176; a community, i.e. (abstractly) citizenship (figuratively):
KJV - conversation.

NT:4176 politeuomai (pol-it-yoo'-om-ahee); middle voice of a derivative of NT:4177; to behave as a citizen (figuratively):
KJV - let conversation be, live.

NT:4177 politees (pol-ee'-tace); from NT:4172; a townsman:
KJV - citizen.

NT:4172 polis (pol'-is); probably from the same as NT:4171, or perhaps from NT:4183; a town (properly, with walls, of greater or less size):
KJV - city.

NT:4171 polemos (pol'-em-os); from pelomai (to bustle); warfare (literally or figuratively; a single encounter or a series):
KJV - battle, fight, war.

NT:4183 polus (pol-oos'); including the forms from the alternate pollos; (singular) much (in any respect) or (plural) many; neuter (singular) as adverbial, largely; neuter (plural) as adverb or noun often, mostly, largely:
KJV - abundant,  altogether, common,  far (passed, spent), (+be of a) great (age, deal, -ly, while), long, many, much, oft (-en [-times]), plenteous, sore, straitly. Compare NT:4118, NT:4119.

(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

This, however, must also be considered with a proper understanding of "heaven": 

NT:3772 ouranos (oo-ran-os'); perhaps from the same as NT:3735 (through the idea of elevation); the sky; by extension, heaven (as the abode of God); by implication, happiness, power, eternity; specifically, the Gospel (Christianity):
KJV - air, heaven ([-ly]), sky.

NT:3735 oros (or'-os); probably from an obsolete oroo (to rise or "rear"; perhaps akin to NT:142; compare NT:3733); a mountain (as lifting itself above the plain):
KJV - hill, mount (-ain).

NT:3733 ornis (or'-nis); probably from a prolonged form of the base of NT:3735; a bird (as rising in the air), i.e. (specifically) a hen (or female domestic fowl):
KJV - hen.

NT:142 airoo (ah'-ee-ro); a primary root; to lift up; by implication, to take up or away; figuratively, to raise (the voice), keep in suspense (the mind), specially, to sail away (i.e. weigh anchor); by Hebraism [compare OT:5375] to expiate sin:
KJV - away with, bear (up), carry, lift up, loose, make to doubt, put away, remove, take (away, up).

(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

One also must learn that "heaven" comes from an Old English heofon, of Germanic origin; related to Dutch hemel and German Himmel . All these words mean "THE SKY!" And, interestingly enough, our word "sky" comes from the Middle English (also in the plural denoting "clouds"): from Old Norse ský  ‘cloud.’ The verb dates from the early 19th century. It is related to our word "obscure!"

So, when the verse says, "our community or our homeland is in the sky," it is NOT saying that it is in some other-worldly place called "Heaven"; it's saying that our community or our homeland is up in the sky, specifically, in the NIGHTTIME sky. We remember that Hebrews 12:22 above called this city - this community - "Ierousaleem epouranioo," pronounced "Yeh-roo-sah-LAME  ep-oo-rah-NEE-o," which means "Jerusalem from-or-belonging-to-'above-the-sky,'" that is, Jerusalem in OUTER SPACE, somewhere out among the stars from our perspective! This fits with 1 Corinthians 15:40-41 which calls the sun, moon, and stars "soomata epourania" or "bodies from or belonging-to-'above-the-sky'":

1 Corinthians 15:40-41
40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
KJV

What "glory" could the sun, moon, and stars be said to have? Wouldn't that be the LIGHT they give off - the color, the intensity, and the brightness, as well as the features we see in that light? This is what "glory" means! It's what makes them stand out from the black (or blue) background of the sky so that we notice them.

NT:1391 doxa (dox'-ah); from the base of NT:1380; glory (as very apparent), in a wide application (literal or figurative, objective or subjective):
KJV - dignity, glory (-ious), honour, praise, worship.

NT:1380 dokeoo (dok-eh'-o); a prolonged form of a primary verb, dokoo (dok'-o) (used only in an alternate in certain tenses; compare the base of NT:1166) of the same meaning; to think; by implication, to seem (truthfully or uncertainly):
KJV - be accounted, (of own) please (-ure), be of reputation, seem (good), suppose, think, trow.

(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

So, when Yeshua` reigns "in glory," it's not WHERE He is reigning, but that He is reigning in BRIGHT LIGHT! That's the whole meaning of Isaiah 24:23:

Isaiah 24:21-23
21 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall punish the host of the high ones that are on high, and the kings of the earth upon the earth.
22 And they shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days shall they be visited.
23 Then the moon shall be confounded (mixed up), and the sun ashamed (outdone), when the LORD of hosts shall reign in mount Zion, and in Jerusalem, and before his ancients gloriously (brightly).
KJV

This is reminiscent of Revelation 1:

Revelation 1:12-16
12 And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;
13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.
14 His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;
15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.
16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance (face) was as the sun shineth in his strength.
KJV

This is not just picturesque or figurative speech! This is LITERALLY how Yeshua` appeared to Yochanan!

Now, I've thrown all these "extras" into the mix to show you the nuances of the words that you use that present an ENTIRELY DIFFERENT perspective than many Christians have of these words!

Hebrews 3:1-3 says,

Hebrews 3:1-3
1 Wherefore, holy brethren (Greek: adelfoi hagioi = "sanctified brothers and sisters"), partakers (Greek: metochoi = "sharers") of the heavenly calling (Greek: kleeseoos epouraniou = "an-invitation of-or-related-to-'above-the-sky'"), consider the Apostle (Greek: apostolon = "sent-one") and High Priest (Greek: archierea = "chief-priest") of our profession, [Christ] Jesus;
2 Who was faithful to him that appointed him, as also Moses was faithful in all his house.
3 For this man was counted worthy of more glory than Moses (whose face SHONE), inasmuch as he who hath builded the house hath more honour than the house.
KJV

So, again, it's not an "invitation to go to heaven"; it's an invitation to the One coming down from SPACE, Yeshua`, which we just read about in Philippians 3:20, where it says, "from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ!" He's RETURNING! He's COMING HERE! We're not going to Him; He's coming to US!

Colossians 1:3-8
3 We give thanks to God and the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, praying always for you,
4 Since we heard of your faith in Christ Jesus, and of the love which ye have to all the saints,
5 For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven (Greek: dia teen elpida teen apokeimeneen humin en tois ouranois = "through the anticipation/expectation/confidence the reserved/awaited for you in the sky"), whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel;
6 Which is come unto you, as it is in all the world; and bringeth forth fruit, as it doth also in you, since the day ye heard of it, and knew the grace of God in truth:
7 As ye also learned of Epaphras our dear fellowservant, who is for you a faithful minister of Christ;
8 Who also declared unto us your love in the Spirit.
KJV

Nothing in this passage suggests that one must go there to acquire that which is "laid up for one in the sky"; in fact, the verses imply that the things anticipated will come to us!

Finally, the passage around 1 Peter 1:4 says,

1 Peter 1:3-12
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you (Greek: teteereemeneen en ouranois eis humas = "guarded in [the] sky into/for you"),
5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation (Greek: sooteerian = "rescue/deliverance") ready to be revealed in the last time.
6 Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations:
7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:
8 Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory:
9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls (the rescue/deliverance of your air-breathers = "RESURRECTION").
10 Of which salvation the prophets have inquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:
11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ (the Messiah), and the glory (brightness) that should follow.
12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel (heralded the good news) unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels (the messengers) desire to look into.
KJV

I hurried through these last two, but once a foundation of terminology is laid, the understanding becomes simpler and the difficult passages - the obscure passages - become less strained and easier to understand.

[Limey_Bob]

22 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shabbat shalom, Limey_Bob.

I'm just going to make this simple. The Kingdom of God is the SAME as that Kingdom ruled by David and Shlomoh (Solomon). Yeshua` (Jesus) IS their heir and is the Heir Apparent to the throne. (That's what "Messiah" [mashiyach] or "Christ" [christos] means: He is the "one anointed TO BE KING.") He is NOT King right now, because He hasn't yet returned to take over that Kingdom (which currently doesn't exist).

His first advent was focused on the CRUX of the matter: the offer of the Kingdom to His own people, His own family, the children of Israel. Through their rejection of their future King, even to the point of crucifying Him, Gentile nations have been blessed to participate in that Kingdom when He returns. We who are Gentiles are subjects for a Kingdom that does not yet exist!

To support this much, simply read the parable in Luke 19: (It's actually a parable within a parable; so, focus on the outer parable, which I will highlight.)

Luke 19:11-28
11 And as they heard these things, he added and spake a parable, because he was nigh to Jerusalem, and because they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear.
12 He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return.
13 And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them, Occupy till I come.
14 But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying, We will not have this man to reign over us.
15 And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom, then he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading.
16 Then came the first, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained ten pounds.
17 And he said unto him, Well, thou good servant: because thou hast been  faithful in a very little, have thou authority over ten cities.
18 And the second came, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained five pounds.
19 And he said likewise to him, Be thou also over five cities.
20 And another came, saying, Lord, behold, here is thy pound, which I have kept laid up in a napkin:
21 For I feared thee, because thou art an austere man: thou takest up that thou layedst not down, and reapest that thou didst not sow.
22 And he saith unto him, Out of thine own mouth will I judge thee, thou wicked servant. Thou knewest that I was an austere man, taking up that I laid not down, and reaping that I did not sow:
23 Wherefore then gavest not thou my money into the bank, that at my coming I might have required mine own with usury?
24 And he said unto them that stood by, Take from him the pound, and give it to him that hath ten pounds.
25 (And they said unto him, Lord, he hath ten pounds.)
26 For I say unto you, That unto every one which hath shall be given; and from him that hath not, even that he hath shall be taken away from him.
27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.
28 And when he had thus spoken, he went before, ascending up to Jerusalem.
KJV

The first few verses (12-15a) already occurred! Here's some of their fulfillment:

John 19:10-15
10 Then saith Pilate unto him, Speakest thou not unto me? knowest thou not that I have power to crucify thee, and have power to release thee?
11 Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin.
12 And from thenceforth Pilate sought to release him: but the Jews cried out, saying, If thou let this man go, thou art not Caesar's friend: whosoever maketh himself a king speaketh against Caesar.
13 When Pilate therefore heard that saying, he brought Jesus forth, and sat down in the judgment seat in a place that is called the Pavement, but in the Hebrew, Gabbatha.
14 And it was the preparation of the passover, and about the sixth hour: and he saith unto the Jews, Behold your King!
15 But they cried out, Away with him, away with him, crucify him. Pilate saith unto them, Shall I crucify your King? The chief priest answered, We have no king but Caesar.
KJV

Here is how Yeshua` (Jesus) responded to that rejection (ahead of time):

Matthew 23:29-39
29 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,
30 And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.
31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.
32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.
33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell (Greek: ge-enna = "valley of Hinnom" where the kings set up their judgment seats)?
34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:
35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.
36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.
KJV

So, Yeshua` (Jesus) went away into that "far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return." Despite all the rhetoric to the contrary, He has NOT YET RETURNED! Therefore, the Kingdom has not yet been realized because its King has not yet returned! The Kingdom concept is INTIMATELY tied to the King! No King, no Kingdom! The best we can do at present is to make SUBJECTS for that Kingdom in anticipation of when it arrives. Therefore, the King is NOT currently reigning, as His ancestors David and Shlomoh did.

Excuse me, are you claiming that Christ is NOT yet a king, i.e. he is not a king in some sense right now?

[Retrobyter]

1 hour ago, Limey_Bob said:

Excuse me, are you claiming that Christ is NOT yet a king, i.e. he is not a king in some sense right now?

Shalom, Limey_Bob.

Yes, that's EXACTLY what I'm claiming. You see, His Kingdom is a Kingdom from His ancestors, David, Shlomoh (Solomon), etc. One absolutely MUST consider the Israeli history and origins of what we believe.

Luke 1:30-33
30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.
31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.
32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.
KJV

It was God's Kingdom then, and it will be God's Kingdom when it is re-established in the future.

God told Sh'mu'el,

1 Samuel 8:7-9
7 And the Lord said unto Samuel, Hearken unto the voice of the people in all that they say unto thee: for they have not rejected thee, but they have rejected me, that I should not reign over them.
8 According to all the works which they have done since the day that I brought them up out of Egypt even unto this day, wherewith they have forsaken me, and served other gods, so do they also unto thee.
9 Now therefore hearken unto their voice: howbeit yet protest solemnly unto them, and shew them the manner of the king that shall reign over them.
KJV

Then, after Sha'uwl's 40-year reign, He made David (pronounced "Dah-VEED") the King of His people Isra'el:

2 Samuel 7:1-29
1 And it came to pass, when the king sat in his house, and the LORD had given him rest round about from all his enemies;
2 That the king said unto Nathan the prophet,

"See now, I dwell in an house of cedar, but the ark of God dwelleth within curtains."

3 And Nathan said to the king,

"Go, do all that is in thine heart; for the LORD is with thee."

4 And it came to pass that night, that the word of the LORD came unto Nathan, saying,

5 "Go and tell my servant David,

'Thus saith the LORD,

"Shalt thou build me an house for me to dwell in?
6 Whereas I have not dwelt in any house since the time that I brought up the children of Israel out of Egypt, even to this day, but have walked in a tent and in a tabernacle.
7 In all the places wherein I have walked with all the children of Israel spake I a word with any of the tribes of Israel, whom I commanded to feed my people Israel, saying, 'Why build ye not me an house of cedar?'"'

8 Now therefore so shalt thou say unto my servant David,

'Thus saith the LORD of hosts,

"I took thee from the sheepcote, from following the sheep, to be ruler over my people, over Israel:
9 And I was with thee whithersoever thou wentest, and have cut off all thine enemies out of thy sight, and have made thee a great name, like unto the name of the great men that are in the earth.
10 Moreover I will appoint a place for my people Israel, and will plant them, that they may dwell in a place of their own, and move no more; neither shall the children of wickedness afflict them any more, as beforetime,
11 And as since the time that I commanded judges to be over my people Israel, and have caused thee to rest from all thine enemies. Also the LORD telleth thee that he will make thee an house.
12 And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom.
13 He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever.
14 I will be his father, and he shall be my son. If he commit iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men:
15 But my mercy shall not depart away from him, as I took it from Saul, whom I put away before thee.
16 And thine house and thy kingdom shall be established for ever before thee: thy throne shall be established for ever."'"

17 According to all these words, and according to all this vision, so did Nathan speak unto David.
18 Then went king David in, and sat before the LORD, and he said,

"Who am I, O LORD God? and what is my house, that thou hast brought me hitherto?
19 And this was yet a small thing in thy sight, O LORD God; but thou hast spoken also of thy servant's house for a great while to come. And is this the manner of man, O LORD God?
20 And what can David say more unto thee? for thou, LORD God, knowest thy servant.
21 For thy word's sake, and according to thine own heart, hast thou done all these great things, to make thy servant know them.
22 Wherefore thou art great, O LORD God: for there is none like thee, neither is there any God beside thee, according to all that we have heard with our ears.
23 And what one nation in the earth is like thy people, even like Israel, whom God went to redeem for a people to himself, and to make him a name, and to do for you great things and terrible, for thy land, before thy people, which thou redeemedst to thee from Egypt, from the nations and their gods?
24 For thou hast confirmed to thyself thy people Israel to be a people unto thee for ever: and thou, LORD, art become their God.
25 And now, O LORD God, the word that thou hast spoken concerning thy servant, and concerning his house, establish it for ever, and do as thou hast said.
26 And let thy name be magnified for ever, saying, The LORD of hosts is the God over Israel: and let the house of thy servant David be established before thee.
27 For thou, O LORD of hosts, God of Israel, hast revealed to thy servant, saying, I will build thee an house: therefore hath thy servant found in his heart to pray this prayer unto thee.
28 And now, O LORD God, thou art that God, and thy words be true, and thou hast promised this goodness unto thy servant:
29 Therefore now let it please thee to bless the house of thy servant, that it may continue for ever before thee: for thou, O LORD God, hast spoken it: and with thy blessing let the house of thy servant be blessed for ever."
KJV (enhanced with quotation marks)

This is an important passage, because it shows WHY Yeshua`, David's "seed," was called "the Son of God." It also shows the heart of David the King, who always thought himself a subordinate to YHWH ("the LORD"). These words are repeated in 1 Chronicles 17.

And here is...

David's Psalm of praise.

Psalm 145:1-21
1 I will extol thee, my God, O king; and I will bless thy name for ever and ever.
2 Every day will I bless thee; and I will praise thy name for ever and ever.
3 Great is the LORD, and greatly to be praised; and his greatness is unsearchable.
4 One generation shall praise thy works to another, and shall declare thy mighty acts.
5 I will speak of the glorious honour of thy majesty, and of thy wondrous works.
6 And men shall speak of the might of thy terrible acts: and I will declare thy greatness.
7 They shall abundantly utter the memory of thy great goodness, and shall sing of thy righteousness.
8 The LORD is gracious, and full of compassion; slow to anger, and of great mercy.
9 The LORD is good to all: and his tender mercies are over all his works.
10 All thy works shall praise thee, O LORD; and thy saints shall bless thee.
11 They shall speak of the glory of thy kingdom, and talk of thy power;
12 To make known to the sons of men his mighty acts, and the glorious majesty of his kingdom.
13 Thy kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and thy dominion endureth throughout all generations.
14 The LORD upholdeth all that fall, and raiseth up all those that be bowed down.
15 The eyes of all wait upon thee; and thou givest them their meat in due season.
16 Thou openest thine hand, and satisfiest the desire of every living thing.
17 The LORD is righteous in all his ways, and holy in all his works.
18 The LORD is nigh unto all them that call upon him, to all that call upon him in truth.
19 He will fulfil the desire of them that fear him: he also will hear their cry, and will save them.
20 The LORD preserveth all them that love him: but all the wicked will he destroy.
21 My mouth shall speak the praise of the LORD: and let all flesh bless his holy name for ever and ever.
KJV

David the King recognized YHWH as HIS King!

When Yeshua` left the earth, He gave them the parable of Luke 19:

Luke 19:11-28
11 And as they heard these things, he added and spake a parable, because he was nigh to Jerusalem, and because they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear.
12 He said therefore, "A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return.
13 And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them, Occupy till I come.
14 But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying, We will not have this man to reign over us.
15 And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom, then he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading.
16 Then came the first, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained ten pounds.
17 And he said unto him, Well, thou good servant: because thou hast been faithful in a very little, have thou authority over ten cities.
18 And the second came, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained five pounds.
19 And he said likewise to him, Be thou also over five cities.
20 And another came, saying, Lord, behold, here is thy pound, which I have kept laid up in a napkin:
21 For I feared thee, because thou art an austere man: thou takest up that thou layedst not down, and reapest that thou didst not sow.
22 And he saith unto him, Out of thine own mouth will I judge thee, thou wicked servant. Thou knewest that I was an austere man, taking up that I laid not down, and reaping that I did not sow:
23 Wherefore then gavest not thou my money into the bank, that at my coming I might have required mine own with usury?
24 And he said unto them that stood by, Take from him the pound, and give it to him that hath ten pounds.
25 (And they said unto him, Lord, he hath ten pounds.)
26 For I say unto you, That unto every one which hath shall be given; and from him that hath not, even that he hath shall be taken away from him.
27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me."
28 And when he had thus spoken, he went before, ascending up to Jerusalem.
KJV

He also rebuked the Torah teachers and the P'rushiym with Matthew 23, ending with...

Matthew 23:29-39
29 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,
30 And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.
31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.
32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.
33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:
35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.
36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.

37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. (The FULFILLMENT of Daniel 9:27.)
39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord. (A quotation from Psalm 118:26.)
KJV

When His disciples later just before His ascension asked,

Acts 1:6-12
6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, "Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?"
7 And he said unto them, "It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth."
9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
11 Which also said, "Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? (why are you gazing up into the sky?) this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven (who is taken up from you into the sky), shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven (shall return in the same way that you have seen Him go into the sky)."
12 Then returned they unto Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is from Jerusalem a sabbath day's journey.
KJV

So, it had not yet been established here on earth, and now He was LEAVING THEM!

We also read in one of His other parables,

Matthew 25:31-34ff
31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory (return in His brightness), and all the holy angels (messengers) with him, THEN shall he sit upon the throne of his glory (the throne of His brightness):
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
.....
KJV

This scene doesn't occur in "heaven"; it will happen right here on the earth after His return, specifically in Israel - HIS Land!

The Scriptures NEVER say that He is reigning from "heaven" somehow. He begins His reign when He returns!

[Guest shiloh357]

On 4/7/2017 at 9:45 PM, Marilyn C said:

Hi Shiloh,

How wonderful to read all those scriptures concerning our precious glorious risen Lord who will rule over this world. Thank you for posting them as it so gladdens our heart to read of the promises and the fulfillment as God said.

Now we don`t disagree there, so it`s just a matter of HOW the Lord will reign over the earth - physically on the earth or  over the earth, through Israel from heaven.

1.The Psalms. You will note that they say `over ` not `on` the earth.

To `dwell there,` is the same as `the Lord of hosts is with us, `(Ps. 46: 11) etc meaning that God is with them, or dwelling with them by His Holy Spirit.

The reason why my position is correct and your position is wrong here, is that you are parsing the word "over"  in spatial terms.  You are interpreting "over" to mean "above"  and that is incorrect.   Jesus can reign on the earth and rule over it.  "Over all the earth" simply refers to the extent of His reign.   He will be THE world ruler and there will not be anywhere on earth that will not out of the reach of His reign.   But to say that over must mean above is simply bad heremeneutics.

Quote

 

2. Isaiah. You will note that in Isa. 11: 6 - 9  it is not as you suggest that -

At that time, the curse will be lifted and the plant and animal kingdoms will be restored to their original perfection.

It is only on God`s holy mountain -`they shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain.` (v. 9) It is not world wide. Death has not been destroyed in the millennium. It is the last to be done away with as we know, at the end of the millennium. (1 Cor. 15: 26)

 

If you look at the entire chapter in which that passage is embedded, it is talking about a global reign on earth.  It is not limiting the extent of the reign to Mount Zion. Nothing in that passage says that death is done away with at that time.   But that chapter is a millennial chapter that speaks to what is happening on the whole heart.   "for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea."  That is a description of the whole earth, not just Mount Zion

Quote

 

The Times of Restoration

`The times of restorations of all things, of which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began.` (Acts 3: 21)

You said this will happen in the millennium. However the OT prophets spoke of an earlier authority that needed to be restored, in the third heaven. This was spoken of by the prophets Ezekiel(28) & Isaiah(14). They told how Lucifer, the most glorious angel had a throne, but because of his pride he was cast out of the angelic realm & positions of authority there have never been filled.

The prophet Daniel tells us that `thrones were put in place,` & `the heavenly court was seated.` (Dan. 7: 9 & 26) Then the Apostle Paul was given a revelation of the Body of Christ judging the world system & angels. These are shown in Rev. 4 represented by the 24 elders around the throne.

Once authority & power is restored in the highest created realm, then other authorities can come under the Lordship of Christ.

 

How do you know that Satan's position was not restored?   Where in the Bible does it even say that his position needs to restored?

That reference in Daniel is speaking to the day of Judgment that comes after the millennial reign.
 

Quote

 

The Throne of David

 This is the earthly authority that will rule in the millennium & the ages to come. King David was promised that his throne would continue forever. And we know that it is the Lord who is will take up that rulership.

Now the Lord was before David - `I am the root & offspring of David ..` (Rev. 22: 16) To be the Root of David means in figurative language that He is the source of David`s being, his ability and authority. And that authority is not of the earth.

`My kingdom is not of this world. If my kingdom were of this world, my servants would fight, ….but my kingdom is not from here.` (John 18: 36)

The Lord`s authority is given by the Father -

God….`seated Him (Christ) in the heavenly places, far above all principality and power and might and dominion, and every name that is named , not only in this age but also in that which is to come.` (Eph. 1: 20 & 21)

Let us not try & bring the Lord down in our minds to a mere earthly authority when His Father has given Him authority far above all in this age & the one to come.

regards, Marilyn.

 

I am just going to take God at His word and Trust Him in this matter.  The throne of David will be on the earth and it will be in His temple.  That is what the Bible teaches.  That is the only correct view.   So I will go with God on this.

[Marilyn C]

1 hour ago, shiloh357 said:

The reason why my position is correct and your position is wrong here, is that you are parsing the word "over"  in spatial terms.  You are interpreting "over" to mean "above"  and that is incorrect.   Jesus can reign on the earth and rule over it.  "Over all the earth" simply refers to the extent of His reign.   He will be THE world ruler and there will not be anywhere on earth that will not out of the reach of His reign.   But to say that over must mean above is simply bad heremeneutics.

 

Hi Shiloh,

Thank you for your thoughts. I will just ask a question concerning Christ ON the earth, as you say.

Now God the Father tells us that He has -

`...seated Him (Christ) at His right hand in the heavenly places, far above all principality and power  and might and dominion, and every name that is named not only in this age but in the age to come, and put all things under His feet...` (Eph. 1: 20 & 21)

So...why do you place the Lord -

- below angelic beings in the third heaven near God`s throne,

- below where Lucifer had his throne,

- below where Satan & his demons are - Prince of the power of the air,

- below, at God`s footstool,

 

Why do you believe the Lord Jesus Christ, the creator of all things, the creator of -

- things in heaven & that are on earth, visible & invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers,... (Col. 1: 16)

Why do you believe He reigns from below & not above?

Why does the upholder of all things become an `earthly king` that eventually gets surrounded by Satan & the armies of the world & has to have fire from heaven come down to deal with them?

???????Marilyn. 

[Guest shiloh357]

8 minutes ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Shiloh,

Thank you for your thoughts. I will just ask a question concerning Christ ON the earth, as you say.

Now God the Father tells us that He has -

`...seated Him (Christ) at His right hand in the heavenly places, far above all principality and power  and might and dominion, and every name that is named not only in this age but in the age to come, and put all things under His feet...` (Eph. 1: 20 & 21)

So...why do you place the Lord -

- below angelic beings in the third heaven near God`s throne,

- below where Lucifer had his throne,

- below where Satan & his demons are - Prince of the power of the air,

- below, at God`s footstool,

 

Why do you believe the Lord Jesus Christ, the creator of all things, the creator of -

- things in heaven & that are on earth, visible & invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers,... (Col. 1: 16)

Why do you believe He reigns from below & not above?

Why does the upholder of all things become an `earthly king` that eventually gets surrounded by Satan & the armies of the world & has to have fire from heaven come down to deal with them?

???????Marilyn. 

The earth belongs to God.   Satan does not own the earth.   It is not his dominion.   God reigns everywhere.   Spiritually speaking the stuff you said is true.   But this is about Jesus' Messianic reign  which the Bible locates on earth during the millennium.  

God reigns in heaven and on earth.   There are messianic prophecies about Jesus on the throne of David, which is always an earthly throne.  

You seem to use the term "earthly" has if it means "sinful."   Again, it's God's earth and He chooses to dwell among His people.   Why is that so hard to believe?   Again, I am trusting God and taking Him at His word.  I prefer not to  try and mold His  word around fleshly thinking.    If he says he weill rule on earth, then I will accept that because I have no inclination to correct Him or call Him a liar.

[Limey_Bob]

15 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, Limey_Bob.

Yes, that's EXACTLY what I'm claiming. You see, His Kingdom is a Kingdom from His ancestors, David, Shlomoh (Solomon), etc. One absolutely MUST consider the Israeli history and origins of what we believe.

Luke 1:30-33
30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.
31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.
32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.
KJV

It was God's Kingdom then, and it will be God's Kingdom when it is re-established in the future.

God told Sh'mu'el,

1 Samuel 8:7-9
7 And the Lord said unto Samuel, Hearken unto the voice of the people in all that they say unto thee: for they have not rejected thee, but they have rejected me, that I should not reign over them.
8 According to all the works which they have done since the day that I brought them up out of Egypt even unto this day, wherewith they have forsaken me, and served other gods, so do they also unto thee.
9 Now therefore hearken unto their voice: howbeit yet protest solemnly unto them, and shew them the manner of the king that shall reign over them.
KJV

Then, after Sha'uwl's 40-year reign, He made David (pronounced "Dah-VEED") the King of His people Isra'el:

2 Samuel 7:1-29
1 And it came to pass, when the king sat in his house, and the LORD had given him rest round about from all his enemies;
2 That the king said unto Nathan the prophet,

"See now, I dwell in an house of cedar, but the ark of God dwelleth within curtains."

3 And Nathan said to the king,

"Go, do all that is in thine heart; for the LORD is with thee."

4 And it came to pass that night, that the word of the LORD came unto Nathan, saying,

5 "Go and tell my servant David,

'Thus saith the LORD,

"Shalt thou build me an house for me to dwell in?
6 Whereas I have not dwelt in any house since the time that I brought up the children of Israel out of Egypt, even to this day, but have walked in a tent and in a tabernacle.
7 In all the places wherein I have walked with all the children of Israel spake I a word with any of the tribes of Israel, whom I commanded to feed my people Israel, saying, 'Why build ye not me an house of cedar?'"'

8 Now therefore so shalt thou say unto my servant David,

'Thus saith the LORD of hosts,

"I took thee from the sheepcote, from following the sheep, to be ruler over my people, over Israel:
9 And I was with thee whithersoever thou wentest, and have cut off all thine enemies out of thy sight, and have made thee a great name, like unto the name of the great men that are in the earth.
10 Moreover I will appoint a place for my people Israel, and will plant them, that they may dwell in a place of their own, and move no more; neither shall the children of wickedness afflict them any more, as beforetime,
11 And as since the time that I commanded judges to be over my people Israel, and have caused thee to rest from all thine enemies. Also the LORD telleth thee that he will make thee an house.
12 And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom.
13 He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever.
14 I will be his father, and he shall be my son. If he commit iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men:
15 But my mercy shall not depart away from him, as I took it from Saul, whom I put away before thee.
16 And thine house and thy kingdom shall be established for ever before thee: thy throne shall be established for ever."'"

17 According to all these words, and according to all this vision, so did Nathan speak unto David.
18 Then went king David in, and sat before the LORD, and he said,

"Who am I, O LORD God? and what is my house, that thou hast brought me hitherto?
19 And this was yet a small thing in thy sight, O LORD God; but thou hast spoken also of thy servant's house for a great while to come. And is this the manner of man, O LORD God?
20 And what can David say more unto thee? for thou, LORD God, knowest thy servant.
21 For thy word's sake, and according to thine own heart, hast thou done all these great things, to make thy servant know them.
22 Wherefore thou art great, O LORD God: for there is none like thee, neither is there any God beside thee, according to all that we have heard with our ears.
23 And what one nation in the earth is like thy people, even like Israel, whom God went to redeem for a people to himself, and to make him a name, and to do for you great things and terrible, for thy land, before thy people, which thou redeemedst to thee from Egypt, from the nations and their gods?
24 For thou hast confirmed to thyself thy people Israel to be a people unto thee for ever: and thou, LORD, art become their God.
25 And now, O LORD God, the word that thou hast spoken concerning thy servant, and concerning his house, establish it for ever, and do as thou hast said.
26 And let thy name be magnified for ever, saying, The LORD of hosts is the God over Israel: and let the house of thy servant David be established before thee.
27 For thou, O LORD of hosts, God of Israel, hast revealed to thy servant, saying, I will build thee an house: therefore hath thy servant found in his heart to pray this prayer unto thee.
28 And now, O LORD God, thou art that God, and thy words be true, and thou hast promised this goodness unto thy servant:
29 Therefore now let it please thee to bless the house of thy servant, that it may continue for ever before thee: for thou, O LORD God, hast spoken it: and with thy blessing let the house of thy servant be blessed for ever."
KJV (enhanced with quotation marks)

This is an important passage, because it shows WHY Yeshua`, David's "seed," was called "the Son of God." It also shows the heart of David the King, who always thought himself a subordinate to YHWH ("the LORD"). These words are repeated in 1 Chronicles 17.

And here is...

David's Psalm of praise.

Psalm 145:1-21
1 I will extol thee, my God, O king; and I will bless thy name for ever and ever.
2 Every day will I bless thee; and I will praise thy name for ever and ever.
3 Great is the LORD, and greatly to be praised; and his greatness is unsearchable.
4 One generation shall praise thy works to another, and shall declare thy mighty acts.
5 I will speak of the glorious honour of thy majesty, and of thy wondrous works.
6 And men shall speak of the might of thy terrible acts: and I will declare thy greatness.
7 They shall abundantly utter the memory of thy great goodness, and shall sing of thy righteousness.
8 The LORD is gracious, and full of compassion; slow to anger, and of great mercy.
9 The LORD is good to all: and his tender mercies are over all his works.
10 All thy works shall praise thee, O LORD; and thy saints shall bless thee.
11 They shall speak of the glory of thy kingdom, and talk of thy power;
12 To make known to the sons of men his mighty acts, and the glorious majesty of his kingdom.
13 Thy kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and thy dominion endureth throughout all generations.
14 The LORD upholdeth all that fall, and raiseth up all those that be bowed down.
15 The eyes of all wait upon thee; and thou givest them their meat in due season.
16 Thou openest thine hand, and satisfiest the desire of every living thing.
17 The LORD is righteous in all his ways, and holy in all his works.
18 The LORD is nigh unto all them that call upon him, to all that call upon him in truth.
19 He will fulfil the desire of them that fear him: he also will hear their cry, and will save them.
20 The LORD preserveth all them that love him: but all the wicked will he destroy.
21 My mouth shall speak the praise of the LORD: and let all flesh bless his holy name for ever and ever.
KJV

David the King recognized YHWH as HIS King!

When Yeshua` left the earth, He gave them the parable of Luke 19:

Luke 19:11-28
11 And as they heard these things, he added and spake a parable, because he was nigh to Jerusalem, and because they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear.
12 He said therefore, "A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return.
13 And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them, Occupy till I come.
14 But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying, We will not have this man to reign over us.
15 And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom, then he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading.
16 Then came the first, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained ten pounds.
17 And he said unto him, Well, thou good servant: because thou hast been faithful in a very little, have thou authority over ten cities.
18 And the second came, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained five pounds.
19 And he said likewise to him, Be thou also over five cities.
20 And another came, saying, Lord, behold, here is thy pound, which I have kept laid up in a napkin:
21 For I feared thee, because thou art an austere man: thou takest up that thou layedst not down, and reapest that thou didst not sow.
22 And he saith unto him, Out of thine own mouth will I judge thee, thou wicked servant. Thou knewest that I was an austere man, taking up that I laid not down, and reaping that I did not sow:
23 Wherefore then gavest not thou my money into the bank, that at my coming I might have required mine own with usury?
24 And he said unto them that stood by, Take from him the pound, and give it to him that hath ten pounds.
25 (And they said unto him, Lord, he hath ten pounds.)
26 For I say unto you, That unto every one which hath shall be given; and from him that hath not, even that he hath shall be taken away from him.
27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me."
28 And when he had thus spoken, he went before, ascending up to Jerusalem.
KJV

He also rebuked the Torah teachers and the P'rushiym with Matthew 23, ending with...

Matthew 23:29-39
29 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,
30 And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.
31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.
32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.
33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:
35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.
36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.

37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. (The FULFILLMENT of Daniel 9:27.)
39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord. (A quotation from Psalm 118:26.)
KJV

When His disciples later just before His ascension asked,

Acts 1:6-12
6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, "Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?"
7 And he said unto them, "It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth."
9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
11 Which also said, "Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? (why are you gazing up into the sky?) this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven (who is taken up from you into the sky), shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven (shall return in the same way that you have seen Him go into the sky)."
12 Then returned they unto Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is from Jerusalem a sabbath day's journey.
KJV

So, it had not yet been established here on earth, and now He was LEAVING THEM!

We also read in one of His other parables,

Matthew 25:31-34ff
31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory (return in His brightness), and all the holy angels (messengers) with him, THEN shall he sit upon the throne of his glory (the throne of His brightness):
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
.....
KJV

This scene doesn't occur in "heaven"; it will happen right here on the earth after His return, specifically in Israel - HIS Land!

The Scriptures NEVER say that He is reigning from "heaven" somehow. He begins His reign when He returns!

Retrobyter, that you for your post and also for your honest reply that you believe that Christ is not a king right now! I was shocked to read that, and I've also been shocked at others also stating this too.

 

Now whilst I would agree with you that the fulfilment of Bible prophecy for Christ to sit upon David's throne, in the eternal state (or millennium if you are a pre-Millennialist), is still a yet unfulfilled prophetic future event. I would strongly urge you to reconsider your statement that Christ is in no way a king at this present time. Paul writes that the Son of God, had a kingdom, over which he was ruling at the time that he wrote Colossians 1:13; when he referred to the “kingdom of his dear Son.” So if Christ has a kingdom, then in some sense, and I’d suggest that that is a spiritual sense, Christ is ruling, right now, not over this present physical earth on David’s throne, but spiritually and in heaven. I believe that his kingdom rule began at the ascension, he rules spiritually in heaven over his dead saints from the ascension until the second coming, then at the second coming his kingdom rule then becomes literal, physical and eternal over this earth.

 

Several other verses confirm that Jesus Christ is currently reigning, as King over his Kingdom, although remember, I am not saying that this is a physical kingdom here upon this dearth. John at Revelation 1:9 states (using a present tense) that he, at the time of writing (which was before AD 70), was a part of Christ's then extant kingdom: "I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ." Other verses which apply the word kingdom to the Son of God, at the time of writing, (and not merely prophetically), are 2^nd Peter 1:11 and Ephesians 5:5.

 

Finally, Revelation 3:21, where the apostle John writing to the Laodicean church, writes in the present tense in Greek, that Jesus has sat down (which implies the accomplishment of some work), with the Father on his throne, thereby implying that at the time of writing, Jesus Christ was already the King over some Kingdom. This Kingdom, as I have suggested, was at that time of writing, and is still in the year 2017, a spiritual Kingdom, over which Christ is currently ruling from heaven, for remember that God’s very throne is said to be situation in heaven (Revelation 4:2). Christ’s kingdom is not as yet a geographic Kingdom, which is situated on earth. "To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne." (Revelation 3:21, NKJV).

Edited April 10, 2017 by Limey_Bob

[Marilyn C]

9 hours ago, shiloh357 said:

The earth belongs to God.   Satan does not own the earth.   It is not his dominion.   God reigns everywhere.   Spiritually speaking the stuff you said is true.   But this is about Jesus' Messianic reign  which the Bible locates on earth during the millennium.  

God reigns in heaven and on earth.   There are messianic prophecies about Jesus on the throne of David, which is always an earthly throne.  

You seem to use the term "earthly" has if it means "sinful."   Again, it's God's earth and He chooses to dwell among His people.   Why is that so hard to believe?   Again, I am trusting God and taking Him at His word.  I prefer not to  try and mold His  word around fleshly thinking.    If he says he weill rule on earth, then I will accept that because I have no inclination to correct Him or call Him a liar.

Hi Shiloh,

Now I didn`t say that God doesn`t own the earth or that the term meant sinful, I`m sorry if you got that idea. And I don`t find it hard to believe that God dwells among His people. I think of the shekinah glory that was over the ark of the covenant & also God dwelling in our hearts by the Holy Spirit. No trouble there, bro. I also believe that He will dwell with His people Israel by His Holy Spirit guiding them to teach the nations His laws & ways.

I just don`t see that the Lord would physically rule from the earth, leaving His seat of power & authority in the third heaven vacant. It would be like the Queen of England coming to a town here in Australia & ruling from here. Her authority is here but the throne she has is in England. That is the seat of her power & authority. The same with the Lord, His seat of power & authority is in the third heaven & that is where He rules from.

BTW We can all say we are trusting the Lord & taking Him at His word. Just saying that, doesn`t make your view right.

If you would like to take this further, we can have a soap box debate about it. Care to join me?

regards, Marilyn.