The Word of God (Savior or Scripture?)

[Fidei Defensor]

I have heard many say that when you see the word of God in the scriptures it is referring to the scriptures themselves being word of God. But the actual Scriptures containing the Word of God are referring to Jesus who is Word of God, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. ² He was in the beginning with God. ³ All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. ⁴ In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. ⁵ The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.  And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten (not made, this word use to mean to come forth from) from the Father, full of grace and truth. ¹⁵ John testified about Him and cried out, saying, “This was He of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.’” ¹⁶ For of His fullness ^[n]we have all received, and grace upon grace. For the Law was given through Moses; grace and truth were realized through Jesus Christ. ¹⁸ No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him." (John 1:1-4,14-18). When it says, "For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart,"(Hebrews 4:12) this is referencing Jesus who has sword coming from his mouth, "And I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse, and He who sat on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and wages war. His eyes are a flame of fire, and on His head are many diadems; and He has a name written on Him which no one knows except Himself. ¹³ He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. And the armies which are in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, were following Him on white horses. From His mouth comes a sharp sword, so that with it He may strike down the nations, and He will rule them with a rod of iron; and He treads the ^[e]wine press of the fierce wrath of God, the Almighty. ¹⁶ And on His robe and on His thigh He has a name written, “KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS," (Revelation 19:11-15), and "I turned I saw seven golden lampstands; ¹³ and in the middle of the lampstands I saw one like a son of man, clothed in a robe reaching to the feet, and girded across His chest with a golden sash. ¹⁴ His head and His hair were white like white wool, like snow; and His eyes were like a flame of fire. ¹⁵ His feet were like burnished bronze, when it has been made to glow in a furnace, and His voice was like the sound of many waters. ¹⁶ In His right hand He held seven stars, and out of His mouth came a sharp two-edged sword; and His face was like the sun shining in its strength. When I saw Him, I fell at His feet like a dead man. And He placed His right hand on me, saying, “Do not be afraid; I am the first and the last, ¹⁸ and the living One; and I was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of death and of Hades" (Revelation 1:12-18). Whenever the Apostles are referring to Scriptures they say so, "All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, God uses it to prepare and equip his people to do every good work," (2 Timothy 3:16-17), "Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture comes from the prophet's own interpretation. For no prophecy was ever brought about through human initiative, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit," (1 Peter 1:20-21), "For everything that was written in the past was written for our instruction, so that through endurance and the encouragement of the Scriptures, we might have hope," (Romans 15:4). I would argue too how can Bible know your thoughts and heart and judge them, only Jesus did this (Mark Luke 6:8, John 2:24-25, Jesus knows you and even says to know Him (Matthew 7:23). Granted the Scriptures are God Breathed and come from the Holy Spirits direction through the writers. But the Word of God is always Jesus Christ Himself, just as it is always Jesus when you read LORD (Jehovah) and Son of Man in Old Testament (example Ezekiel 28, "Son of Man judged Tyre/Satan").  

Some history on Scriptures, the 66 Books in our Bible were not compiled into one book until the time of Jerome, when men having seen which books were favored by Early Church and most circulated, examples being which Gospels and Epistles were must encouraging, best cross referencing, and most succinct and clear in telling the Gospel. It would be like if every person who knew Jesus wrote a Gospel account, but people kept finding four in particular, Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John where what captured what happened best, just like many people turn in report on something they saw, but its the ones that people understand and that conveys the news best that makes the cut. So since the compiling of Bible didn't happen tell around 4th century, it doesn't seem that when Word of God is mentioned in Scripture that it would refer to 66 Books we now have compiled into Holy Bible. These books we hold dear and are God Breathed were read and circulated by the Early Church, but they were orally told and written down on scrolls, parchment, and other vermellum, and Paul got chance to write down some of his epistles in the newly made Codex, the proto-book which didn't need to be unraveled and could be read from page to page, instead of opening lots of scrolls.

In addition, the books that were not compiled, The Apocalypse of Peter, The Gospel of Thomas, The Gospel of Mary, The Gospel of Judas, and so forth were Gnostic texts written much later (200-300yrs after Christ) than the Apostles, and they contained heresies like the Nestorians, Arianism, Coptism, and many more that aren't Orthodox Christianity according to what the Apostles, and Jesus Christ himself taught.

[Fidei Defensor]

That is perspective I am very familiar with. I once saw it that way until I learned the perspective I've presented.   

[Your closest friendnt]

1 hour ago, Fidei Defensor said:

That is perspective I am very familiar with. I once saw it that way until I learned the perspective I've presented.   

I read your post very careful, me too one time they had me under a spell and had blinded me, and I could not see the word of the Devil, and the word of many other individuals not just the disciples at their deferent stages of their maturity, and with deferent Variations of the Gospel.

But also the words of the enemies of Jesus Christ, men of substance and of high position, who claim that he Jesus was a false prophet. 

So in the Bible someone can find something to make one believe, and something to stir him away from believing, even by the words of Jesus Christ, (it is for a reason that I used the word in plural, words of JESUS). 

I remember when in the older times someone from the King summons the town together, and proclaim the words of the King to all. 

He was the one who had the words of the King. 

Like the same as a prophet who begins with , thus says the Lord and he gives the message. 

Or the minister who says when he reads the beatitudes, this is the word of  Jesus, and when he reads Paul , he says this is the word of Paul to the church of Korinth. 

And he also says , this is the word of the devil, when he tempted Jesus in the dessert. 

And when he reads Peter who said to Jesus , do not say you are going to die, 

JESUS said , Peter has the word of the devil, even though that was the teachings among the Jews. 

JESUS CHRIST said the devil has stir and use Peter to give me this massage. 

The devil spoke through the possess person and the possess person had and spoke the word of the devil, but he was not the devil himself, spoke the word of the devil, as a messager . 

As a medium. 

Jesus was not the voice of the Father, 

JESUS was hearing the voice of the Father, and he spoke it to people, because he was the only one, and no one before JESUS had the word of the Father in his heart. 

JESUS was the messager, the announcer , the only one to whom the Father had ever spoken to. 

That's why JESUS is call the word of God, because he is the only one The Father had ever spoken to. 

Only JESUS was the prophet of the Father and no one else.

Like Aaron was the prophet of Moses. 

Aaron spoke forth the word of Moses from his heart. 

[Fidei Defensor]

17 hours ago, Yowm said:

I fail to see where the two views differ.

The Son is God's Word in eternity

Jesus is God's Word incarnate.

The Scriptures are God's word γράφω (written)

 For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law (what is written) until all is accomplished.
(Mat 5:18)
 

 

 

Well for me, this is just me and some priests, if you focus on word of God being God's breathed Scripture (1 Timothy 3:16) to me that is less than focusing on that Word of God is actually Jesus Christ (John 1:1-15, Revelation 19:11-16). In essence you are right, since Scripture is words coming from Word of God to the writers it is part of the Word of God. I suppose its just a matter of perspective. I just find that if I read, ""For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart,"(Hebrews 4:12) and see Word of God as literally Jesus this passage has a totally different meaning, it means Jesus literally inside me (Colossians 1:27) is penetrating my soul and judges my thoughts, oppose to view that the word of God is the Bible and being used to judge me, but it can't judge my thoughts and know me.

[Fidei Defensor]

The Written Word is a measure, we have to consult it to know what Christ said (we have eyewitness testimony from his disciples, thank the Lord!), and you are right that Written Word helps us discern the Living Word, what is his character, does he challenge us, and so forth. But I do believe that we can experience the Living Word, Jesus Christ supernaturally in prayer and in the Gifts (1 Corinthians 12:4-11), and even I have had the Lord Jesus speak to me through a film.

[daughterofGrace]

Fidei Defensor wrote:

Some history on Scriptures, the 66 Books in our Bible were not compiled into one book until the time of Jerome, when men having seen which books were favored by Early Church and most circulated, examples being which Gospels and Epistles were must encouraging, best cross referencing, and most succinct and clear in telling the Gospel. It would be like if every person who knew Jesus wrote a Gospel account, but people kept finding four in particular, Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John where what captured what happened best, just like many people turn in report on something they saw, but its the ones that people understand and that conveys the news best that makes the cut. So since the compiling of Bible didn't happen tell around 4th century, it doesn't seem that when Word of God is mentioned in Scripture that it would refer to 66 Books we now have compiled into Holy Bible.

My response:

It's true that the books of the Bible were not formally canonized until 363 A.D. at the Council of Laodicea (the one exception being the Book of Revelation).  However, there was almost universal agreement on the Hebrew Scriptures by 250 A.D., with some still arguing that the Apochrypha should be included, while the majority recognized it was not up to snuff and should, therefore, be left out.

The books of the New Testament were informally in place by the end of the second century.  The Muratorian Canon (170 A.D.) included all the books except Hebrews, James and 3 John. 

There were four criteria for declaring a book part of the official canon:

1.  The author of a book had to either have known Jesus or known someone who knew Jesus. 

2.  The book had to be accepted and used by the majority of Christian churches.

3.  The book had to be consistent in its doctrines and teachings.

4.  It had to show the marks of the Holy Spirit in its contents.

There were debates about the three books left out of the Muratorian Canon as well as questions about 2 Peter and 2 John (the former showing a markedly different writing style than 1 Peter; therefore some questioned the authorship of it).  But some books were shoe-ins -- the four Gospels, for example, because of their authorship (by someone who knew Jesus or who knew those who knew Jesus).

We can also tell from the writings of the early church fathers which books were considered authoritative long before the official canonization of them.  Clement of Rome mentioned at least eight New Testament books (A.D. 95). Ignatius of Antioch acknowledged about seven books (A.D. 115). Polycarp, a disciple of John the apostle, acknowledged 15 books (A.D. 108). Later, Irenaeus mentioned 21 books (A.D. 185). Hippolytus recognized 22 books (A.D. 170-235).

So when critics attack the Bible, insisting that the books in it weren't even written until a couple of centuries after Christ, we know they haven't done the historical research to discover the truth.  And this is why the so-called "missing gospels" such as the Gospel of Thomas or the Gospel of Judas, for example, are not in the canon.  They were written too late and not by the people who bear their names but by people who didn't know Jesus or any of those who knew him.

A few good resources are:

The Canon of Scripture by F. F. Bruce

An Introduction to the Bible by Norman Geisler and William Nix

https://bible.org/seriespage/7-bible-holy-canon-scripture

http://www.dts.edu/media/play/the-missing-gospels-1-of-3-darrell-l-bock-w-hall-harris-iii-and-daniel-b-wallace/?audio=true

[Fidei Defensor]

Thank you for sharing how Scripture was canonized in greater detail. You helped make my case, that I think the Apostles when writing that the Word of God judges your thoughts is really Jesus the Word (John 1:1-4) not the Holy Bible (which can't read my thoughts, such a notion is actually Gnostic).

[wingnut-]

I wanted to chime in here briefly and point out a few things that have not been mentioned yet.  The symbolism used in scripture (particularly in the area of prophecy) is something that often confuses those new to the faith and/or non-believers in general.  It often causes confusion or misunderstandings for those at the early stages of their spiritual journey, which is why it is so crucial for everyone to study scripture for themselves.  The Holy Spirit leads us to the truth and understanding that we need, and if we all take accountability for our own relationship with the Lord then there would be a lot less blaming of others who distort the written word.

I don't rely on anyone else when it comes to information, no matter what the subject is or how reliable of a source they appear to be.  How much more important is it to approach scripture in this manner?  There is no other decision any human being can make that is as important as our eternal destination.  People are imperfect, they can and do make errors.  God does not.  I implore everyone to invest in their relationship with Jesus Christ as your top priority.  Do not rely on man, you will be disappointed every time.  Your relationship with God is more important than the relationship with your spouse, your children, or anyone else.  Put God first in everything.

More than 50 times in scripture we are directed to scripture itself, the vast majority of those references are in the New Testament.  Most of those references are made by Jesus Himself to His disciples or followers.  I mention this to bring some things into perspective, Jesus points us to scripture for a reason.  These references are made to the written word (the bible), and not to the Word of God (Jesus).  Obviously Jesus wouldn't tell His disciples to go to Him for an answer when they are asking Him the question, so there is an obvious difference between the two.

There is nothing wrong with someone just beginning their walk to look to a mature Christian for guidance on something, but take what they offer you and look into the matter for yourself.  Always pray and ask for the Lord's guidance on any matter, and especially when you open your bible.  With the Holy Spirit as your guide, you cannot go wrong.

God bless.

[Fidei Defensor]

I agree, my Eschatology teacher Mr. Wonderly once said, "We must let Scripture define Scripture," do not trust what a pastor or expert says blindly, go check it in Scriptures. I ever endeavor to cross reference as much as I can to prove something in Scripture (my Blog is testament to this). But no matter how much people want to avoid commentaries and the thoughts of other men, you are going to have bias that is Augustinian, Darbian (Darby), Lutheran, and so forth; because people before us interpreted that way before we did. Unless you learn Aramaic and Hebrew, and Coine Greek, and you hear the Holy Spirit's interpretation perfectly, you will at some point seek a commentary or analysis of a difficult to grasp Scripture.

[Fidei Defensor]

7 minutes ago, Yowm said:

Wouldn't you say that the Jews such as Jesus, Paul, Peter, John etc., already knew which Hebrew text was 'canon' and which weren't. I don't think it took the Church 250 years or so later to announce that. 

Interesting point. Yes, the Lord and Disciples already knew which books of Old Testament were canon. As for what was canon in New Testament during the time of Apostles, this was what Gospel accounts and epistles were kept at the various churches, and which were circulating the most and which described the events of Jesus' life, crucifixion, resurrection, ascension, and return best.