Timing of the seals question

[wingnut-]

17 minutes ago, Daniel 11:36 said:

"Who today obey's God's commandments and hold to the testimony of Jesus?  There is only one group, so not a hard question."

 

Your testimony is very short sighted my friend .... Revelation 12 is about the Lord, Israel, and Satan  

 

  

[wingnut-]

1 minute ago, Giller said:

The book of revelation is truly chronological, just many chapters , as I have said before, re ash things, and cover things sometimes in the past, then brings you in the present time of the state of that chapter of Revelation, and then even brings you even to the end, at times.

But as concerns your scripture, this is what it says:

Rev 11:15-19
(15)  And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
(16)  And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
(17)  Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
(18)  And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
(19)  And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.
 

The part were it says:"The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever." ,is being said in heaven, and looking forward, towards that, but at this point, they are still at the mid point of the tribulation period, which brings in the last mile, unto when Christ reigns at his second coming.

And because it is the last mile, God is already claiming it, before it happens.

And notice what it says:"there were great voices in heaven".

This is not being said on earth.

And then it mentions about God:"which art, and wast, and art to come".

It mentions a future state of his coming, at this point of tribulation.

And right now God is reigning on his heavenly throne.

Then part of 18, looks forward to the time of the dead being judged, and reward being given unto the servants the prophets etc, and destroying them which destroy the earth, which is at the second coming.

So at this mid point of tribulation, God in heaven is already claiming the earth, and already looking forward towards the second coming, even though , at this point, we are not there yet.

And then in verse 19, we get back on track, and it mentions of the temple in heaven being open.

 

Well, you are not addressing all of what is said there, about time for judging, rewarding servants and prophets, etc., but this should be discussed in another thread.  This one is about the seals and I am not going to derail it anymore out of respect for the OP.

God bless

[Spock]

11 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

Well you were ALIVE when the Church was here........many people gave been called and many have refused that call, thus all they have to do my friend is cry out to an all merciful God. You act like the Church being Raptured makes everyone a baby without memories or something. There is a REMNANT of the Body of Christ because new people come to Christ Jesus after the Rapture.

QUESTION, if you were not a Christian, but had a wife, a few kids and friends who were Christians, but you tarried and was not a Christian, and the Raptured happened, millions died maybe a billion people died, you would know this was Jesus calling your lived ones home.....Would you give your life to Christ at that very moment and be willing to die as a Martyr or Serve the Beast/Anti-Christ? Well, that is how you get a Remnant, people give their lives to the Lord after the Rapture. Why do people ask this same question over and over, I can't believe how many times I have to explain this, and sometimes the same person will ask 10 times over a 2 or 3 year period. 

Israel will be protected by God in Rev. 12, so explain why we have two different subsets mentioned in Rev. 12:17? 

Rev. 12:16 And the earth helped the woman (Israel), and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.

17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman (God Protected Israel 1260 Days so Satan was ANGRY, he couldn't get at her), and went to make war with the remnant of her seed (Her SEED is Jesus Christ), which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Jesus was the PROMISED SEED...........The Remnant of Israels Seed (Jesus) is the Body of Christ that is alive on Earth. Notice Satan can not get at ISRAEL (Woman) so he goes after THE CHURCH. Why would you not understand these to be two different entities? One is PROTECTED............The other Satan can make War with.

I think once the rapture occurs, this ends the CHURCH AGE. Therefore, I do not believe there is a REMNANT of church age people. 

Of course, some people will subsequently repent and turn to God when they see the rapture before their eyes, but Rev says people harden their hearts after each plague so don't expect a deluge of new believers. And I don't believe they are a remnant of anything.

and of course some will be invited into the Millenium Kingdom based on the sheep and goats criteria pursuant to Matt 25. 

[Spock]

4 hours ago, wingnut- said:

Who today obey's God's commandments and hold to the testimony of Jesus?  There is only one group, so not a hard question.

THUD!!!!!! Case closed! 

Who can rebut that?  Not I. 

Edited May 10, 2017 by Spock

[Revelation Man]

6 hours ago, wingnut- said:

I already did explain this to you in the other thread, you argued for several pages that the woman was not Israel and that the woman was the church.  I'm glad to see you came around on that, but as I pointed out there, the woman being Israel means the offspring is the church.  Israel gave birth to Jesus, Jesus gave birth to the church.  With Israel protected, Satan goes after the church because he can't get the woman.  There is no remnant of the church in scripture, only a remnant of Israel and that remnant is protected.  2/3 of Israel will be cut off and die as prophesied by Zechariah.

And the gathering which is the first resurrection  is found in scripture multiple times, Matthew 24 and Revelation 16 being the most prominent.  You properly identify the gathering in Matthew 24, which aligns perfectly with where it appears in Revelation 16.

 

Matthew 24:40 Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left. 41 Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left. 42 Watch therefore, for you do not know what hour your Lord is coming. 43 But know this, that if the master of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched and not allowed his house to be broken into. 44 Therefore you also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.

 

Revelation 16:15 “Behold, I am coming as a thief. Blessed is he who watches, and keeps his garments, lest he walk naked and they see his shame.”

16 And they gathered them together to the place called in Hebrew, Armageddon.

 

That's at the end, just before Armageddon.

God bless

I hate to call yo out, but if you can find ANY POST where I say the Woman is the Church then you need to copy and paste it, and show me, I have never believed that.....I can show posts from Youtube that go back years, so either you have me confused with someone else or you have made a mistake.

And it is NOT the Remnant of Israel, its the remnant of THE SEED (Jesus). Don't you know what THE SEED is man?  LET ME WALK YOU THROUGH IT

Galatians 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

So now that we have established that Christ Jesus is the SEED IF PROMISE lets go through that verse in Rev. 12 again.

Rev. 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman (Angry with Israel when God protected them), and went to make war with the remnant(Small part of) of her SEED (JESUS CHRIST), which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Its going to sink in one day that I am not just throwing things at you, but instead actually know a little of what I speak before I open my big trap. For starters you stated I said that the Woman is the Church, I accept the fact that you probably had a Bill & Hillary Clinton moment and couldn't remember clearly. 

Next, as I stated the Remnant is the Church because it is of the SEED which is Jesus Christ....NOTICE, they have the TESTIMONY OF JESUS CHRIST !! The Remnant is the Church. This shouldn't be hard to understand, Israel is protected but Satan is allowed to make WAR/KILL the Remnant......thus it can't be Israel. LOGIC 101. 

 

The First Resurrection is the dead in Christ and those living in Christ when Christ calls is to him in the air, then we go to Heaven to Marry the Lamb. After the Tribulation the Beheaded in Christ from the Tribulation are raised and that also is the First Resurrection.

First Resurrection = The Resurrection of those in Christ.

Second Resurrection = those bound for hell or the Resurrection of the Wicked.

 

Matthew 24:40-44 is THE RAPTURE. One of these days people will quit implying that because like words are used it has to be the same event. I see that all the time and nothing could be further from the truth. Remember Satan did that also. "You Shall not SURELY DIE".

 

[wingnut-]

1 hour ago, Revelation Man said:

I hate to call yo out, but if you can find ANY POST where I say the Woman is the Church then you need to copy and paste it, and show me, I have never believed that.....I can show posts from Youtube that go back years, so either you have me confused with someone else or you have made a mistake.

 

 

I'm not exactly sure how to quote from one thread to another, but I will try.  Below is the link to the post where I quoted you saying what is copied and pasted below.  You don't specifically say the woman is not Israel but you presented it that way with this statement which led to a discussion.

 

"Jesus might have placed the inference to the Time of Troubles and Second Coming first because he knew the VAST MAJORITY of Jewish peoples would go through those troubles and be looking for Him to return in the Eastern Skies, after they have accepted the Messiah, during this Tribulation period."

 

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/207649-2-thess-21/?do=findComment&comment=2580980

 

1 hour ago, Revelation Man said:

And it is NOT the Remnant of Israel, its the remnant of THE SEED (Jesus). Don't you know what THE SEED is man?

 

Revelation 12:13 Now when the dragon saw that he had been cast to the earth, he persecuted the woman who gave birth to the male Child. 14 But the woman was given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness to her place, where she is nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent. 15 So the serpent spewed water out of his mouth like a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away by the flood. 16 But the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed up the flood which the dragon had spewed out of his mouth. 17 And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

 

Yes, I knew perfectly well who the seed was when I first objected to your post in the other thread.  The seed is Jesus, but the passage refers to  the offspring, which is the church.  The only group that exists today who obey God's commandments and hold to the testimony of Jesus, in other words, Christians.  

 

Isaiah 10:20 And it shall come to pass in that day
That the remnant of Israel,
And such as have escaped of the house of Jacob,
Will never again depend on him who defeated them,
But will depend on the Lord, the Holy One of Israel, in truth.
21 The remnant will return, the remnant of Jacob,
To the Mighty God.
22 For though your people, O Israel, be as the sand of the sea,
A remnant of them will return;
The destruction decreed shall overflow with righteousness.
23 For the Lord God of hosts
Will make a determined end
In the midst of all the land.

 

What you are trying to claim is a remnant of the church, which is nowhere to be found in scripture.  If you have a scriptural reference please share it, if not you are mixing the two and presenting something inaccurate.

 

1 hour ago, Revelation Man said:

The First Resurrection is the dead in Christ and those living in Christ when Christ calls is to him in the air, then we go to Heaven to Marry the Lamb.

 

You are correct regarding the first section of the above, everything following the comma is completely wrong.  We meet Him in the air we are told for starters, and secondly you cannot have a wedding without the entire body being present.  You are trying to exclude God's chosen people (Israel) from the wedding.  Every believer will be part of this, here is the scripture from Hosea to prove it.

 

Hosea 2:16 “And it shall be, in that day,”
Says the Lord,
“That you will call Me ‘My Husband,’
And no longer call Me ‘My Master,’

 

Hosea 2:19 “I will betroth you to Me forever;
Yes, I will betroth you to Me
In righteousness and justice,
In lovingkindness and mercy;
20 I will betroth you to Me in faithfulness,
And you shall know the Lord.

 

This is the remnant of Israel/ the woman who are taken aside by the Lord, and this is what He said to them.  Surely you are familiar with what it means to call one husband or the term betroth.  Make no mistake, there is no wedding until it is finished and the entire body is present.

 

1 hour ago, Revelation Man said:

Matthew 24:40-44 is THE RAPTURE.

 

I agree, it is definitely  the first resurrection/ catching away/ rapture, and it happens just before Armageddon as stated in Rev. 16:15

God bless

[Revelation Man]

22 hours ago, Spock said:

You continue to confuse me brother.

You stated you believed the seals, trumpets, and bowls all occurred in the GT, the last 3.5'years. 

So why put the rapture before the 70th week? Why not at least put the rapture before the mid point abomination when the AC becomes the beast, instead of placing the rapture before the peace treaty, that initiates the final 70th week of Daniel? 

What basis from scripture do you see the rapture before the 70th week? 

Thanks,

You might notice I try to incorporate reason and logic into my understandings, I don't just say things without reasons.  So Jesus says the day nor the hour (of his return) knows no man but my Father in Heaven. Jesus tells us to be ready, to watch and not to be caught by surprise. The Second Coming is not the Rapture, if it were we could  know many things, the very day since the Beast has exactly 42 Months (1260 days) to rule, we would be able to see the Vials lining up and know that Jesus return was moments away when we see the gathering at Armageddon.

The Churches job is to bring in the Harvest, to win souls. The 144,000 Jews are SEALED for just that cause during the Tribulation, the Two-Witnesses are also protected and preach in Jerusalem for 1260 Days. The Church isn't mentioned at all.  The Churches job is finished, why would God leave us on earth amidst the carnage?  And we wouldn't have 144,000 Jewish Preachers if people didn't come to Christ during the Tribulation, all that do is the Remnant of the Church or Body of Christ but this Church is powerless against the gates of hell, because they tarried, they must become Martyrs or dodge this evil tyrant. (Martyrs under he Alter Seal 5)

2 Thess. ch. 2 tells us that the Church Departs before the Anti-Christ is revealed and before the Day of the Lord, the Church is what restrains him from coming forth, as long as we are on earth, he will not be allowed to come to power. Matthew 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

The Church can not be defeated by Satan nor his minions, we are raptured to Heaven, then the Anti-Christ is allowed to come forth. We are told in 1 Cor. 15 and 2 Thess. 4 that those living and the dead in Christ will be called to meet Jesus in the air, then we will go to be with him evermore. We are told in Revelation 19 there was MUCH PEOPLE in Heaven, the Bride Marries the Lamb, we put on White robes then ride White horses back with Jesus where the Anti-Christ/Kings/Armies await us for battle. So the Rapture is a real event, that can not be the Second Coming, because the Church comes back with Jesus, so how many years do we stay in Heaven with Jesus where we marry the Lamb? Maybe Jesus left us some clues......by the way, the Rapture is a Message for the Church only.

A Promise to the Church

The concept of the Rapture was not revealed to the Old Testament prophets because it is a promise to the New Testament Church and not to the saints of God who lived before the establishment of the Church. Jesus will return as a bridegroom for His bride, and that bride consists only of Church Age saints. Now let us walk through the Jewish Wedding Pattern to see if we can see when Jesus should return for his Bride and how many years they should be in Heaven. If you follow this you will get your answers to WHEN THE LORD RETURNS FOR HIS BRIDE AND HOW LONG THEY REMAIN IN HEAVEN.

 

Finally, the Lord told Israel.....

"I am sought of [them that] asked not [for me]; I am found of [them that] sought me not: I said, Behold me, behold me, unto a nation [that] was not called by my name.” - Isaiah 65:1

Praise God for our sakes, the Lord turned to the Gentiles. In the New Testament the Church, composed of Gentiles and Jews, is also described as the Bride of the Lord Jesus, the second bride of Scripture. Rachel was loved but Leah was given first.

The steps of the traditional Jewish wedding:

1 – Selection of the Bride
Jewish Wedding - The Son chooses the Bride – the Father makes the arrangements
Church - John 15:16 – “You did not choose Me, but I chose you . . .”

2 – The Bride Price established
Jewish Wedding - The father of the bride must be reimbursed for the loss of his daughter.
Church - I Corinthians 6:20 - “For you were bought with a price.” The Bride price was paid when Jesus died on the Cross.

We who are saved by Jesus were sought by the Lord. (Isaiah 65:1) Jesus paid the price on Passover. The appointed times of First-fruits and Unleavened Bread complete the picture of Jesus being resurrected and being sinless, the spotless Lamb of God. Pentecost, or the Feast of Weeks, was the fourth appointed time given by the Lord in Leviticus 23:15-22. Just as the Lord deals with the Church in a separate manner from His chosen, the Jews, I strongly suspect that Pentecost, which is separate from the Spring Feasts and the Fall Feasts, is specific to the Church.

3 – The Betrothal 
Jewish Wedding - More than mere “engagement”, it was a permanent arrangement. Recall the story of Joseph and Mary.
Church – The attachment of the Church to the Lord is also permanent, and forever. “This is the bread which came down from heaven--not as your fathers ate the manna, and are dead. He that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.” (John 6:58) And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any [man] pluck them out of my hand. (John 10:28)

4 – The Marriage Contract
Jewish Wedding – A written agreement committing each party to the marriage.
Church - The entire Holy Bible is our written agreement containing the promises of God. Jesus said, “If ye continue in my word, [then] are ye my disciples indeed;” (John 8:31)

5 – The Bride must consent
Jewish Wedding – This is not entirely an arranged marriage; the bride must agree.
Church – “He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved;” (Mark 16:16) “That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.” (Romans 10:9)

6 – The Bridal Gift and the Cup of the Covenant
Jewish Wedding – A glass of wine is taken upon the signing of the contract.
Church – Each time we gather around the Lord’s Table, we remember the “contract.” “And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave [it] to them, saying, Drink ye all of it; For this is my blood of the new testament (covenant), which is shed for many for the remission of sins.” (Matthew 26:27-28)

Jewish Wedding – The Bride is given a gift by the groom.
Church - The Holy Spirit is given by Jesus –– “Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.” (Acts 2:38) This, of course, occurred on the Day of Pentecost.

7 – The Ceremonial Purification of the Bride
Jewish Wedding - The next step for the Bride after she is betrothed is a ceremonial cleansing. In Biblical times the Bride would use a Mikvah, which was pool of water, in which she would immerse herself.
Church - Acts 2:41 – “Then those who gladly received his word were baptized (immersed); and that day about three thousand souls were added [to them].”

The Church is an insertion in the Lord's Plan. Israel was the original bride. I believe that the Lord Jesus will come for His bride, the Church, in a separate event (the Rapture) from the Lord's return for His bride, Israel. From this point forward in the Jewish Wedding process, following the purification of the bride, in my opinion the Church will be dealt with separately in the time defined as the Church Age, or the Age of Grace. This period of time will extend from the first Day of Pentecost to the day when the Lord Jesus calls us Home.

8 – The Groom would prepare a room for the Bride in his father’s house
Church - John 14:3 – “I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself.”

The father of the groom determines when the room is ready. The groom does not determine the time of the wedding........“But of that day and hour knoweth no [man], no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.” (Matthew 24:36)

9 – The Bride is consecrated and set apart
Church - First Peter 2:9 – “But ye [are] a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people.”

10 – The Groom returns with a shout, “Behold, the bridegroom comes!” 
Church - First Thessalonians 4:16 – “For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God.”

Let me insert an additional hope at this point. When the Lord Jesus comes for His Bride, the Church, we will not be totally surprised. Although the Jewish bride did not know the day or the hour, she was expectant. The Apostle Paul in speaking of “that Day” said, “But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day.” (First Thessalonians 5:4-5) Today, many in the Church are expectant and will not be totally surprised.

11 – The Bride and Groom go to the wedding chamber.
Church – This period when the Bride and Groom spend time together seems to show that the Bride of Jesus will be with Him in Heaven. This appears to indicate a pre-Tribulation gathering of the Church, and is described in Isaiah 26:20; “Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.” Praise the Lord!

12 – The Marriage Supper
Church – “‘Let us be glad and rejoice and give Him glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His wife has made herself ready.’ And to her it was granted to be arrayed in fine linen, clean and bright, for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints. Then he said to me, ‘Write: Blessed [are] those who are called to the marriage supper of the Lamb!’” (The Revelation 19:7-9)

In my opinion, the Feast of Pentecost is still being fulfilled and will be completed when the Lord Jesus comes for His bride.

The steps of the traditional Jewish wedding:

8 – The Groom would prepare a room for the Bride in his father’s house
Jewish Wedding – In Biblical times the groom would add a room to his father’s house. At that time, families lived together.
The father of the groom determines when the room is ready. The groom does not determine the time of the wedding.

9 – The Bride is consecrated and set apart
Jewish Wedding – The Bride is spoken for and belongs to no one else. Again, refer to Mary and Joseph. (Matthew 1:18-19)
At this point in the process, the Bride is always in readiness. She does not know when the Groom will return for her. For example, see Matthew 25 – The Parable of the Ten Virgins.

10 – The Groom returns with a shout, “Behold, the bridegroom comes!” 
Jewish Wedding – This was frequently done at midnight for surprise. Matthew 25:6 (the Parable of the Ten Virgins) – “And at midnight a cry (shout) was [heard]: ‘Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him!’”

 

The seven days the Jewish bride and groom spend in the wedding chamber appear to equate to seven prophetic years, which parallels the last seven years of Daniel’s prophecy, and is the basis for the concept of seven years of Tribulation.

“Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; But in the middle of the week He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.” - Daniel 9:27....Daniel’s last seven days (Daniel 9:27) appear to parallel the seven years of the Tribulation, while the Bride of Christ is in Heaven consummating union to Jesus Messiah and celebrating with the marriage supper.

 

Note that the “armies [which were] in heaven” were clothed in fine linen, white and clean, just like the Bride was given in the preceding verse 19:8. This identifies the “armies” as the Bride of Christ, Saints and Children of God, who will return in victory with the Lord Jesus.

11 -  The Bride and Groom go to the wedding chamber.
Jewish Wedding - The marriage was consummated in the wedding chamber. The Bride and Groom stayed in that wedding chamber for seven days. (7 YEARS)

12 – The Marriage Supper
Jewish Wedding – A wedding feast was given for the Bride and Groom.
After the traditional Jewish Wedding the Bride and Groom lived together. This fits the picture of the Lord living, or tabernacling, with His people in the Kingdom Age and forever!

The Children of Israel were also instructed to live in booths or tents during this feast. This was to be a memorial of the time when the Lord delivered Israel from Egypt. The Feast of Tabernacles is about Deliverance and will be fulfilled when the Lord delivers Israel from her enemies. Then there will be a New Beginning for the Kingdom of God and His two brides.

 

Edited May 11, 2017 by Revelation Man

[Revelation Man]

1 hour ago, wingnut- said:

I'm not exactly sure how to quote from one thread to another, but I will try.  Below is the link to the post where I quoted you saying what is copied and pasted below.  You don't specifically say the woman is not Israel but you presented it that way with this statement which led to a discussion.

 

"Jesus might have placed the inference to the Time of Troubles and Second Coming first because he knew the VAST MAJORITY of Jewish peoples would go through those troubles and be looking for Him to return in the Eastern Skies, after they have accepted the Messiah, during this Tribulation period."

Like I stated, you will not ever be able to post a Scripture where I say the Woman is the Church. After the Church is Raptured, then Israel turns to THEIR MESSIAH and God protects them in the Wilderness, whilst the Remnant of the Church is NOT PROTECTED.

1 hour ago, wingnut- said:

Yes, I knew perfectly well who the seed was when I first objected to your post in the other thread.  The seed is Jesus, but the passage refers to  the offspring, which is the church.  The only group that exists today who obey God's commandments and hold to the testimony of Jesus, in other words, Christians. 

The passage refers to the REMNANT of Jesus.....HER SEED....You can change to another bible all you want, that changes nothing. It means the REMAINS OF JESUS' Church. Like I stated, God protects Israel........Satan is allowed to come against what is left of the CHURCH..........Its not that hard to understand these can't be the same.

1 hour ago, wingnut- said:

This is the remnant of Israel/ the woman who are taken aside by the Lord, and this is what He said to them.  Surely you are familiar with what it means to call one husband or the term betroth.  Make no mistake, there is no wedding until it is finished and the entire body is present.

 

Again, I find this kind of CHOP-SHOP work so aggravating, just because you find another reference to remnant of Israel in the Old Testament doesn't mean this is the same reference being made in Revelation, IN FACT, if you open your eyes it clearly says the Remnant of HER SEED........Meaning the Remnant of Jesus Christ or the Church. 

1 hour ago, wingnut- said:

I agree, it is definitely  the first resurrection/ catching away/ rapture, and it happens just before Armageddon as stated in Rev. 16:15

God bless

No, the Rapture happens before the 70th Week begins. The event in Rev. 16 is the Second Coming, which is Matthew 24:27-31.

[Spock]

1 hour ago, Revelation Man said:

You might notice I try to incorporate reason and logic into my understandings, I don't just say things without reasons.  So Jesus says the day nor the hour (of his return) knows no man but my Father in Heaven. Jesus tells us to be ready, to watch and not to be caught by surprise. The Second Coming is not the Rapture, if it were we could  know many things, the very day since the Beast has exactly 42 Months (1260 days) to rule, we would be able to see the Vials lining up and know that Jesus return was moments away when we see the gathering at Armageddon.

The Churches job is to bring in the Harvest, to win souls. The 144,000 Jews are SEALED for just that cause during the Tribulation, the Two-Witnesses are also protected and preach in Jerusalem for 1260 Days. The Church isn't mentioned at all.  The Churches job is finished, why would God leave us on earth amidst the carnage?  And we wouldn't have 144,000 Jewish Preachers if people didn't come to Christ during the Tribulation, all that do is the Remnant of the Church or Body of Christ but this Church is powerless against the gates of hell, because they tarried, they must become Martyrs or dodge this evil tyrant. (Martyrs under he Alter Seal 5)

2 Thess. ch. 2 tells us that the Church Departs before the Anti-Christ is revealed and before the Day of the Lord, the Church is what restrains him from coming forth, as long as we are on earth, he will not be allowed to come to power. Matthew 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

The Church can not be defeated by Satan nor his minions, we are raptured to Heaven, then the Anti-Christ is allowed to come forth. We are told in 1 Cor. 15 and 2 Thess. 4 that those living and the dead in Christ will be called to meet Jesus in the air, then we will go to be with him evermore. We are told in Revelation 19 there was MUCH PEOPLE in Heaven, the Bride Marries the Lamb, we put on White robes then ride White horses back with Jesus where the Anti-Christ/Kings/Armies await us for battle. So the Rapture is a real event, that can not be the Second Coming, because the Church comes back with Jesus, so how many years do we stay in Heaven with Jesus where we marry the Lamb? Maybe Jesus left us some clues......by he way, the rapture is a message for the Church only.

A Promise to the Church

The concept of the Rapture was not revealed to the Old Testament prophets because it is a promise to the New Testament Church and not to the saints of God who lived before the establishment of the Church. Jesus will return as a bridegroom for His bride, and that bride consists only of Church Age saints. Now let us walk through the Jewish Wedding Pattern to see if we can see when Jesus should return for his Bride and how many years they should be in Heaven. If you follow this you will get your answers to WHEN THE LORD RETURNS FOR HIS BRIDE AND HOW LONG THEY REMAIN IN HEAVEN.

 

Finally, the Lord told Israel.....

"I am sought of [them that] asked not [for me]; I am found of [them that] sought me not: I said, Behold me, behold me, unto a nation [that] was not called by my name.” - Isaiah 65:1

Praise God for our sakes, the Lord turned to the Gentiles. In the New Testament the Church, composed of Gentiles and Jews, is also described as the Bride of the Lord Jesus, the second bride of Scripture. Rachel was loved but Leah was given first.

The steps of the traditional Jewish wedding:

1 – Selection of the Bride
Jewish Wedding - The Son chooses the Bride – the Father makes the arrangements
Church - John 15:16 – “You did not choose Me, but I chose you . . .”

2 – The Bride Price established
Jewish Wedding - The father of the bride must be reimbursed for the loss of his daughter.
Church - I Corinthians 6:20 - “For you were bought with a price.” The Bride price was paid when Jesus died on the Cross.

We who are saved by Jesus were sought by the Lord. (Isaiah 65:1) Jesus paid the price on Passover. The appointed times of First-fruits and Unleavened Bread complete the picture of Jesus being resurrected and being sinless, the spotless Lamb of God. Pentecost, or the Feast of Weeks, was the fourth appointed time given by the Lord in Leviticus 23:15-22. Just as the Lord deals with the Church in a separate manner from His chosen, the Jews, I strongly suspect that Pentecost, which is separate from the Spring Feasts and the Fall Feasts, is specific to the Church.

3 – The Betrothal 
Jewish Wedding - More than mere “engagement”, it was a permanent arrangement. Recall the story of Joseph and Mary.
Church – The attachment of the Church to the Lord is also permanent, and forever. “This is the bread which came down from heaven--not as your fathers ate the manna, and are dead. He that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.” (John 6:58) And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any [man] pluck them out of my hand. (John 10:28)

4 – The Marriage Contract
Jewish Wedding – A written agreement committing each party to the marriage.
Church - The entire Holy Bible is our written agreement containing the promises of God. Jesus said, “If ye continue in my word, [then] are ye my disciples indeed;” (John 8:31)

5 – The Bride must consent
Jewish Wedding – This is not entirely an arranged marriage; the bride must agree.
Church – “He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved;” (Mark 16:16) “That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.” (Romans 10:9)

6 – The Bridal Gift and the Cup of the Covenant
Jewish Wedding – A glass of wine is taken upon the signing of the contract.
Church – Each time we gather around the Lord’s Table, we remember the “contract.” “And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave [it] to them, saying, Drink ye all of it; For this is my blood of the new testament (covenant), which is shed for many for the remission of sins.” (Matthew 26:27-28)

Jewish Wedding – The Bride is given a gift by the groom.
Church - The Holy Spirit is given by Jesus –– “Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.” (Acts 2:38) This, of course, occurred on the Day of Pentecost.

7 – The Ceremonial Purification of the Bride
Jewish Wedding - The next step for the Bride after she is betrothed is a ceremonial cleansing. In Biblical times the Bride would use a Mikvah, which was pool of water, in which she would immerse herself.
Church - Acts 2:41 – “Then those who gladly received his word were baptized (immersed); and that day about three thousand souls were added [to them].”

The Church is an insertion in the Lord's Plan. Israel was the original bride. I believe that the Lord Jesus will come for His bride, the Church, in a separate event (the Rapture) from the Lord's return for His bride, Israel. From this point forward in the Jewish Wedding process, following the purification of the bride, in my opinion the Church will be dealt with separately in the time defined as the Church Age, or the Age of Grace. This period of time will extend from the first Day of Pentecost to the day when the Lord Jesus calls us Home.

8 – The Groom would prepare a room for the Bride in his father’s house
Church - John 14:3 – “I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself.”

The father of the groom determines when the room is ready. The groom does not determine the time of the wedding........“But of that day and hour knoweth no [man], no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.” (Matthew 24:36)

9 – The Bride is consecrated and set apart
Church - First Peter 2:9 – “But ye [are] a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people.”

10 – The Groom returns with a shout, “Behold, the bridegroom comes!” 
Church - First Thessalonians 4:16 – “For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God.”

Let me insert an additional hope at this point. When the Lord Jesus comes for His Bride, the Church, we will not be totally surprised. Although the Jewish bride did not know the day or the hour, she was expectant. The Apostle Paul in speaking of “that Day” said, “But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day.” (First Thessalonians 5:4-5) Today, many in the Church are expectant and will not be totally surprised.

11 – The Bride and Groom go to the wedding chamber.
Church – This period when the Bride and Groom spend time together seems to show that the Bride of Jesus will be with Him in Heaven. This appears to indicate a pre-Tribulation gathering of the Church, and is described in Isaiah 26:20; “Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.” Praise the Lord!

12 – The Marriage Supper
Church – “‘Let us be glad and rejoice and give Him glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His wife has made herself ready.’ And to her it was granted to be arrayed in fine linen, clean and bright, for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints. Then he said to me, ‘Write: Blessed [are] those who are called to the marriage supper of the Lamb!’” (The Revelation 19:7-9)

In my opinion, the Feast of Pentecost is still being fulfilled and will be completed when the Lord Jesus comes for His bride.

The steps of the traditional Jewish wedding:

8 – The Groom would prepare a room for the Bride in his father’s house
Jewish Wedding – In Biblical times the groom would add a room to his father’s house. At that time, families lived together.
The father of the groom determines when the room is ready. The groom does not determine the time of the wedding.

9 – The Bride is consecrated and set apart
Jewish Wedding – The Bride is spoken for and belongs to no one else. Again, refer to Mary and Joseph. (Matthew 1:18-19)
At this point in the process, the Bride is always in readiness. She does not know when the Groom will return for her. For example, see Matthew 25 – The Parable of the Ten Virgins.

10 – The Groom returns with a shout, “Behold, the bridegroom comes!” 
Jewish Wedding – This was frequently done at midnight for surprise. Matthew 25:6 (the Parable of the Ten Virgins) – “And at midnight a cry (shout) was [heard]: ‘Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him!’”

 

The seven days the Jewish bride and groom spend in the wedding chamber appear to equate to seven prophetic years, which parallels the last seven years of Daniel’s prophecy, and is the basis for the concept of seven years of Tribulation.

“Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; But in the middle of the week He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.” - Daniel 9:27....Daniel’s last seven days (Daniel 9:27) appear to parallel the seven years of the Tribulation, while the Bride of Christ is in Heaven consummating union to Jesus Messiah and celebrating with the marriage supper.

 

Note that the “armies [which were] in heaven” were clothed in fine linen, white and clean, just like the Bride was given in the preceding verse 19:8. This identifies the “armies” as the Bride of Christ, Saints and Children of God, who will return in victory with the Lord Jesus.

11 -  The Bride and Groom go to the wedding chamber.
Jewish Wedding - The marriage was consummated in the wedding chamber. The Bride and Groom stayed in that wedding chamber for seven days. (7 YEARS)

12 – The Marriage Supper
Jewish Wedding – A wedding feast was given for the Bride and Groom.
After the traditional Jewish Wedding the Bride and Groom lived together. This fits the picture of the Lord living, or tabernacling, with His people in the Kingdom Age and forever!

The Children of Israel were also instructed to live in booths or tents during this feast. This was to be a memorial of the time when the Lord delivered Israel from Egypt. The Feast of Tabernacles is about Deliverance and will be fulfilled when the Lord delivers Israel from her enemies. Then there will be a New Beginning for the Kingdom of God and His two brides.

 

If I can be honest with you here Rev Man, and you know I love you, this cut and paste response disappoints me greatly because now you have cut off dialog between us. So now I'm discussing this with your preacher or John McArthur or whoever. 

Having said that, the Bible only talks about 42 months 3.5 yrs = 1260 days.  

THIS IS THE GREAT TRIBULATION! 

I see no reason why Christians couldn't be raptured, according to everything you wrote previouslymthat was not cut and pasted, just beforemthe GREAT TRIBULATION. If the GT is where God unleashes his wrath, doesn't that fulfill this requirement that the Church will not experience His wrath? 

No where in the Bible is the first half of Daniels week (3.5 yrs) ever called TRIBULATION, no where. Man has made that up to promote their agenda of getting the rapture before Daniels 70th week. 

Again, the Bible only says there will be a 3.5 year tribulation, and even calls it the GREAT TRIBULATION. The first 3.5 yrs by all account could be a time of peace and much joy if you believe the peace treaty  was signed ushering in a false peace and the seals wont be opened until the GT begins or have already been opened. 

 

[Revelation Man]

2 hours ago, Spock said:

If I can be honest with you here Rev Man, and you know I love you, this cut and paste response disappoints me greatly because now you have cut off dialog between us. So now I'm discussing this with your preacher or John McArthur or whoever. 

Having said that, the Bible only talks about 42 months 3.5 yrs = 1260 days.  

THIS IS THE GREAT TRIBULATION! 

I see no reason why Christians couldn't be raptured, according to everything you wrote previouslymthat was not cut and pasted, just beforemthe GREAT TRIBULATION. If the GT is where God unleashes his wrath, doesn't that fulfill this requirement that the Church will not experience His wrath? 

No where in the Bible is the first half of Daniels week (3.5 yrs) ever called TRIBULATION, no where. Man has made that up to promote their agenda of getting the rapture before Daniels 70th week. 

Again, the Bible only says there will be a 3.5 year tribulation, and even calls it the GREAT TRIBULATION. The first 3.5 yrs by all account could be a time of peace and much joy if you believe the peace treaty  was signed ushering in a false peace and the seals wont be opened until the GT begins or have already been opened. 

 

Quoting the Bible is sometimes cut and paste....The object to our journey is to learn the deep truths of God. If someone wants to see the Rapture and its length they can either search it out for themselves, or be gifted a chance to learn it from others. Everything in that is based on Scriptures. It shouldn't matter if I type it in or not. Copying and pasting what I think is truth is just like me typing it. If you want to continue not believing in a pre-tribulation Rapture, be my guest, but the Lord is going to call the Church home before the 70th Week/Jacobs Trouble. You asked for scriptures to point this out so I provided some with context.

I don't care who calls it what....I make a point to call it Daniels 70th Week. I say that 3.5 years are the FAKE PEACE and 3.5 Years are the Day of the Lord or Tribulation. But the Troubles of Jacob can also fit, because even though its only 3.5 YEARS of Wrath, the first 3.5. years of Peace can also be a FORCED PEACE, and I think this is actually the case. So a FORCED PEACE can also be TROUBLES Right? 

You can have Jacobs Troubles (7 Year Period) then you can say after the Abomination of Desolation that time will be the GREATEST TROUBLES EVER.....They don't have to be mutually exclusive. The GREAT TRIBULATION is Actually the 2000 year period where all Christians are tested. This is a major misnomer. 

If you do a word study, I think you will find that Daniel 9:27 is a FORCED PEACE........Not an accepted peace which suggests Troubles for the full 7 years. The Word used for the action taken in verse 27 suggests the Anti-Christ acts INSOLENTLY.