The Tribulation?

[Heb 13:8]

 

3 hours ago, wingnut- said:

The corruptible, perishable, and the mortal are the natural body, and we will ALL be changed in a moment to the incorruptible, imperishable, and immortal, which is the spiritual body.  It's really not as difficult as you're making it, I don't know what else to say.

Right, so why do you believe souls are in heaven and hell right now and not resting in their graves?

[Heb 13:8]

2 hours ago, n2thelight said:

Did not Paul say we have two bodies?

Once the flesh one dies it shall never be nor needed again.

No Paul does not say we have two bodies. 

2 hours ago, n2thelight said:

Where is the rapture scriptures?

1 Thess 4:13-17 Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope. 14For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up (harpazo) together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

Rev 12:1-5 A great sign appeared in heaven: a woman (Israel) clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head.   2  She (Israel) was pregnant and cried out in pain as she was about to give birth.   3  Then another sign appeared in heaven: an enormous red dragon (Satan) with seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns on its heads.   4  Its tail swept a third of the stars out of the sky and flung them to the earth. The dragon (Satan) stood in front of the woman (Israel) who was about to give birth, so that it might devour her child (teknon the church) the moment he was born.   5  She gave birth to a son (huios Jesus Christ himself), a male child, who “will rule all the nations with an iron scepter.” And her child (teknon the church) was snatched up (harpazo) to God and to his throne.

The Greek word from this term “rapture” is derived appears in 1 Thess 4:17, Rev 12:5, translated “caught up.” The Latin translation of this verse used the word rapturo. The Greek word it translates is harpazo, which means to snatch or take away.

Elsewhere it is used to describe how the Spirit caught up Philip near Gaza and brought him to Caesarea, Acts 8:39 and to describe Paul’s experience of being caught up into the third heaven, 2 Cor 12:2-4. Thus there can be no doubt that the word is used in 1 Thess 4:17, Rev 12:5 to indicate the actual removal of people from earth to heaven. 

[wingnut-]

8 minutes ago, Heb 13:8 said:

 

Right, so why do you believe souls are in heaven and hell right now and not resting in their graves?

 

I just explained all of that lol.  In I Corinthians 5, Paul tells us that when our earthly tent (natural body) is destroyed, and we are absent from that natural body, we are present with the Lord.  Which is why there are souls under the altar, our natural body goes into the ground and our soul goes to heaven where it awaits the day it will be raised and changed into the spiritual body.  Since Jesus was resurrected, that is what happened to every single believer that has died since the event in Matthew 27.

In Matthew 27 Abraham's bosom was emptied out of all the Old Testament saints, and they received their spiritual bodies at that time as stated in that passage.  They walked around Jerusalem and were seen by many, when Jesus ascended back to heaven they went with Him.  This is the harpazo from Revelation 12, an event that already transpired.  Following that deceased believers souls go to heaven and we all get our spiritual bodies at His coming, the dead first, and then those who are alive and remain.

 

Revelation 6:9 When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held.

 

See, there they are, slain (meaning killed, which makes them dead) for the word of God and their testimony.

 

Revelation 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?”

 

Here they are talking, asking God how much longer they have to wait for His vengeance.

 

Revelation 6:11 Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed.

 

They are given their white robes here, told to rest a little longer until more believers are killed like they were.  That is important, because their brethren are to be killed like they were, which is displayed in the great multitude, also given their white robes and specifically said to have come out of the great tribulation.  They did not come out alive, they were killed like those who preceded them.

 

Non-believers have always gone to Hades, or hell as it is commonly called.  Hades is not to be confused with the lake of fire, Hades is a temporary place that has held dead non-believers since the beginning of time.  They are all waiting there for the second resurrection John speaks of in Revelation 20.  Here is the evidence that displays Hades is a temporary place.

 

Revelation 20:13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

 

Hades or hell is a temporary place which is cast into the permanent or eternal punishment, the lake of fire.  The second death.

God bless

[n2thelight]

1 hour ago, Heb 13:8 said:

1 Thess 4:13-17 Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope. 14For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up (harpazo) together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

I Thessalonians 4:13 "But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope."

What's the subject?Not to be ignorant concerning those who have died.

I Thessalonians 4:14 "For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him."

It was on the fortieth day that he ascended back to the Father. When Jesus ascended into heaven, all the souls went with him into heaven also, that had passed on, up to that point in time. The souls of some went to wait for that time of judgment, while others to the glory of God. Those that sleep [are dead] are not out there in a hole in the ground, but all Christians must believe that they arose to be with the Father, just like Christ did also. The dead are with God; all of them.

Ecclesiastes 12:6 "Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern."

The "cistern" is the clay flesh body that our soul lives in. The cistern is built to hold the water or life that is within the flesh body, but once that bowl is broken the water or life leaks out of it, just as water leaks out of this flesh body. The "silver cord" is what holds your soul and the spirit together with the flesh body.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 "Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God Who gave it."

When the body dies, and goes to the grave, the physical body will never have a use again, for the soul has returned to the Father, to God who created it in the first place. Because this is a promise of God, it should be what all Christians look forward to all the days of their lives. That is the day that we will be with the Father and Jesus Christ is heaven, not at some distant time in the future.

I Thessalonians 4:15 "For we say unto you, by the word of our Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent in no wise [precede] them which are asleep."

"We which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord," this is our gathering back to Jesus Christ. "Shall not prevent them", would be better translated, "We are not going to precede [go before] them." We can not precede them for a very simple reason; the dead are already there with God. It is the only logical fact that can come from this. If you do not, or will not believe this, then you believe in soul sleep as the heathen do, and the hope and glory Paul is speaking of, for the Christian, and you are ignorant of God's glory. Whether victorious, or sentenced to hell, all the dead are now with the Father, and not in the ground.

https://www.theseason.org/1thess/1thess4.htm

 

 

[n2thelight]

1 hour ago, Heb 13:8 said:

Rev 12:1-5 A great sign appeared in heaven: a woman (Israel) clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head.   2  She (Israel) was pregnant and cried out in pain as she was about to give birth.   3  Then another sign appeared in heaven: an enormous red dragon (Satan) with seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns on its heads.   4  Its tail swept a third of the stars out of the sky and flung them to the earth. The dragon (Satan) stood in front of the woman (Israel) who was about to give birth, so that it might devour her child (teknon the church) the moment he was born.   5  She gave birth to a son (huios Jesus Christ himself), a male child, who “will rule all the nations with an iron scepter.” And her child (teknon the church) was snatched up (harpazo) to God and to his throne.

In order to understand Rev 12 one must understand that there was in age before this one.

This is where the first few verses of Rev 12 takes place,before the age we are in now.

Revelation 12:4 "And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born."

The "stars" of heaven are the "sons of God". This "old dragon" caused one third of all of God's creation to follow him. One third of God's children, are all those in their "soul bodies", are also called "angelic souls". No my friend, they do not have wings, but the cherubs do.

What it is saying here, is through Satan's fall in the first earth age, he drew one third of God's children to him. He caused them to fall, and they worshipped him, and believed in him to be their God. That is also his desire also for this age; to cause you and I, the children of God, to worship him.

Revelation 12:7 "And there was war in heaven: Mi'-cha-el and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,,"

Rev 12 v 7 takes us to the future when satan gets kicked out of Heaven

 

Revelation 1:10 "I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,"

This verse is the key to understanding the book of Revelation. Without a clear and full understanding of it, the entire book just will not make sense. The sequence of order will seem strange.

"I"; this is John speaking and telling us where he was. "I was in the Spirit", not in his flesh body; "on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet". John is taken forward in time, "in the Spirit", to the day of the Lord. The "Day of the Lord" is not referring to Sunday or Saturday. This is the same "Day of the Lord" Paul speaks about in I Thessalonians 5:2, as "coming as a thief in the night". Later in II Thessalonians 2:2-3 Paul makes it clear that at the "Day of the Lord" Christ's return will not happen until "after there will be a great falling away first; and "that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition". Satan must be revealed in his role as the Antichrist first, before that seventh trumpet can sound, the last trumpet.

The time, or day, John was taken to was beyond our time frame, however we are living in the generation that will see it come to pass, and live through what John saw and lived, while in the Spirit. There is only one day that is called "The Day of the Lord" in all the Scriptures.

Isaiah 2:12 "For the day of the Lord of hosts shall be upon every one that is proud and lofty, and upon every one that is lifted up; and he shall be brought low."

This is the day that our Lord returns. This is the day "God's cup of wrath" is poured out upon His enemies. So John was taken in the Spirit to the last day of this earth age, before the start of the age of the Millennium. If you are still in your flesh body, that day hasn't happened yet, and it is still future to us.

Every verse that you read in Revelation from this verse to the end of chapter twenty two, will be viewed from the Lord's day, either looking backwards or forwards a short period of time. If you don't come to that point of time in your understanding with John, the rest of what he is saying just will not make sense.

[Heb 13:8]

14 hours ago, wingnut- said:

Which is why there are souls under the altar..

Hades or hell is a temporary place..

Gotcha. Just one more question..

Does Matt 25:1-13 parable, John 15:1-17 allegory and Rom 11:11-24 metaphor prove that OSAS is false?

Thank you. - Heb 13:8

[Heb 13:8]

13 hours ago, n2thelight said:

When Jesus ascended into heaven, all the souls went with him into heaven also, 

No, they didn't. Soul, spirit and body cannot live without each other.

Quote

Ecclesiastes 12:7 "Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God Who gave it."

And what do you think the Hebrew and Greek word is for "spirit". Do we exist as wind and breath in heaven? 

Eccl 12:7 and the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit (ruach) returns to God who gave it.

John 3:8 The wind (pneuma) blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit (pneuma)."

ruach: breath, wind, spirit
Original Word: ר֫וּחַ
Part of Speech: Noun Feminine
Transliteration: ruach
Phonetic Spelling: (roo'-akh)
Short Definition: spirit

pneuma: wind, spirit
Original Word: πνεῦμα, ατος, τό
Part of Speech: Noun, Neuter
Transliteration: pneuma
Phonetic Spelling: (pnyoo'-mah)
Short Definition: wind, breath, spirit
Definition: wind, breath, spirit.

12 hours ago, n2thelight said:

In order to understand Rev 12 one must understand that there was in age before this one. This is where the first few verses of Rev 12 takes place,before the age we are in now.

So, if Rev 12:1-5 great sign already came to pass 2,000 years ago, why can't we find it on Stellarium. This sign takes place in the heavens where the sun, moon, stars and planets reside.

Stellarium is a star tracking software. On Stellarium this sign only appears once in 7,000 years, on 9/23/17.

[wingnut-]

16 hours ago, inchrist said:

2 Corinthians 5:8 does not say that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. 

 

II Corinthians 5:8 We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.

 

Yes, it does.  

 

16 hours ago, inchrist said:

He likens our bodies to clothing that we must wear. In verse 4, Paul specifically says he does not want to be unclothed (without a body), but rather further clothed (different body). That’s quite a different picture than a disembodied spirit that lives on after death.

 

Paul spends an entire chapter discussing the difference between the two, natural and spiritual.  In this chapter he specifically states that you don't get the spiritual body until His coming, and everyone from the church age is changed in the same moment, the twinkling of an eye.  Anyone who has been to a funeral knows the natural body hasn't gone anywhere, and the spiritual body doesn't come until later according to Paul.

John sees these deceased individuals in his vision, and not only does he see them, but he hears them as well.  I'll accept what it written.

God bless

[OneLight]

On 5/28/2017 at 0:58 AM, n2thelight said:

First there won't be a rapture.

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18

But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope.  For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.  For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.  Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.  Therefore comfort one another with these words.

The Greek word from this term “rapture” is derived appears in 1 Thessalonians 4:17, translated “caught up.” The Latin translation of this verse used the word rapturo. The Greek word it translates is harpazo, which means to snatch or take away. Elsewhere it is used to describe how the Spirit caught up Philip near Gaza and brought him to Caesarea (Acts 8:39) and to describe Paul’s experience of being caught up into the third heaven (2 Cor. 12:2-4). Thus there can be no doubt that the word is used in 1 Thessalonians 4:17 to indicate the actual removal of people from earth to heaven.   from Bible.org

ἁρπάζω harpazō G736

To seize upon, spoil, snatch away, to seize upon with force, to rob.  Though generally, harpazo denoted robbery of another's property, it is not exclusively used that way, but sometimes used generally meaning forcibly to seize upon, snatch away, or take to oneself, as in the rapture or being caught up as in 1 Thessalonians 4:17

To say there will not be a rapture is incorrect.  To say that the rapture will not be as some people declare can be correct.  We can't remove verses from scripture when it doesn't fit our theology.  Instead, we should search out why it does not fit a theology and correct the theology.

[OneLight]

On 5/28/2017 at 1:10 AM, Heb 13:8 said:

 

Right, so why do you believe souls are in heaven and hell right now and not resting in their graves?

Revelation 20:11-15

Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them.  And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.  The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.  Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.  And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

Seems to me that Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them.

I have to ask, and not in an accusing manner, do you believe in soul sleep?