The Tribulation?

[n2thelight]

Another question

When is the end?

 

I ask because Christ said for us to endure until then,since the so called rapture is not the end why would He say that,if you'll won't gonna be here...

Edited May 31, 2017 by n2thelight

[wingnut-]

6 hours ago, simplejeff said:

Do you really, honestly , not know this !? 

 

I do know this, I was asking you who they are in your opinion.  Jesus walked this earth during the last days of the first age, following His resurrection the church age began.  That means anyone who died prior to His resurrection qualifies for being the "many" whose graves were opened.  Your response suggested that you believe they were from the same time He was alive because your source said they returned to their families.  His own disciples, who were closer to Him than anyone did not understand what had happened until He returned to them, Thomas wasn't convinced until he touched the holes in His hands.  So what your source suggested is highly unlikely.  The more likely understanding is that these saints were from the Old Testament.  I would also offer the reminder of what Jesus said to the thief beside Him on the cross, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with Me in paradise."  Luke 23:43.  This whole soul sleep premise is the one with issues concerning scripture.

 

5 hours ago, simplejeff said:

I don't know where you first heard such things,  but much about those things is in error,  and

I have never seen anyone believing those errors to come around to the simple truth of Scripture yet.

(or don't remember anyway anyone who was saved from those errors once they accepted them).

Thus,  no amount of evidence or debate or posts or threads

or sources will change your mind, right ?

 

I read them in the bible, if you have scripture to support otherwise of course I am receptive.  9 years ago when I first joined worthy forums I believed in pre-trib, and for two years I argued that position on these boards.  The Lord changed my understanding of that with scripture, so if I am wrong on this the same would apply.  However it will require scripture, I don't follow the theology of men, as I have discovered way too many errors in regards to it.

 

5 hours ago, simplejeff said:

(btw,  the quote/ link/ url was not my source originally;  it was / is / simply the most convenient one in line with all Scripture available on short notice.   

 

What you posted isn't in line with scripture at all, it actually is taking all sorts of liberties with it.  Nowhere in the scripture does it say these saints were from His time, it doesn't say that they returned to their families, nor does it say they lived out regular lives and died again.  That is the definition of taking liberties with scripture, adding things to it that simply aren't there or supported anywhere else.  If you don't agree with it, why post it?

 

Matthew 27:51 Then, behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth quaked, and the rocks were split, 52 and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; 53 and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many.

 

Where in that passage does it say any of those things your source claims?  You chose to correct me with this source and claimed it was more reliable and in line with scripture, but I am not seeing that here.  There are only two mass resurrections in scripture, this one here and the one at the end of the church age.  Now why would Jesus say He was telling the truth to the thief on the cross about being with Him in paradise that day if it were not so?

 

6 hours ago, simplejeff said:

whenever someone believes and defends a certain school of beliefs instead of Scripture purely,  and whenever they depend on that 'school' for whatever kind of support they get from it,  they won't ever change their mind about it unless and until YHWH grants them the grace to come out of that 'school'

 

The only school I subscribe to is scripture, and no, I am not going to come out of that.  If you have some scripture to offer I am more than happy to digest it.  It's amazing to me that you would post something that so blatantly takes liberties with what is written and still continue to claim that I am the one who needs to change my thinking.

God bless

[wingnut-]

2 hours ago, eileenhat said:

Rev. 1:3 clearly states this is a prophecy and thus Rev. 1:4 can not be seen literally (and so far, you are the first I have heard says that the 7 Churches are not prophetic in nature....as no one usually goes that far in their interpretation of Rev. 1-3 ).

 

 

I didn't say they are not prophetic, I simply pointed out that these 7 churches were real churches, and they are in Asia as John clearly states.  They have nothing to do with the USA, John did not write the letters to a country that didn't exist.  His letters were originally delivered from the Isle of Patmos to those 7 churches in Asia.  The Philadelphia church was there, and has nothing to do with the Philadelphia in Pennsylvania because it did not exist yet.  I would suggest looking at a map and seeing where the Isle of Patmos is in relation to present day Turkey, and not deviating from what scripture actually says in an effort to include a place that did not exist at that time.

[wingnut-]

37 minutes ago, eileenhat said:

Yes, but God is aware of both the present, past and future (he is omniscient) and these words were written for this time (though also addressed to those in Asia).  It is called a mystery because of the hidden meaning which I revealed.  Almost every word written in Revelations can be taken at face value to be a hidden mystery (much to many's consternation).

 

Of course God is aware of all things, and scripture was written for all of mankind.  The mystery however is not in regards to His children, it is a mystery to the wicked because they do not understand scripture.  God doesn't hide things from His children, which is why we are told to study and show ourselves approved.  The symbolism used in Revelation was to ensure the book left the Isle of Patmos, its meaning hidden from the eyes of John's captors, but revealed to those who know His word, through His word.

 

I Thessalonians 5  But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. 2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. 3 For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. 4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief. 5 You are all sons of light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of darkness.

 

The answers are found in scripture, not through visions and private revelations.  This is why we are instructed to test all things against scripture, it is our guide to truth.

God bless

 

[wingnut-]

On 5/30/2017 at 4:39 PM, Heb 13:8 said:

It's symbolism wingnut.

 

Is this symbolism?

 

Luke 23:39 Then one of the criminals who were hanged blasphemed Him, saying, “If You are the Christ, save Yourself and us.”

40 But the other, answering, rebuked him, saying, “Do you not even fear God, seeing you are under the same condemnation? 41 And we indeed justly, for we receive the due reward of our deeds; but this Man has done nothing wrong.” 42 Then he said to Jesus, “Lord, remember me when You come into Your kingdom.”

43 And Jesus said to him, “Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.”

 

or how about this...

 

I Thessalonians 4: 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

 

That's when He descends from heaven, and who is that He is bringing with Him?

God bless

[Heb 13:8]

10 hours ago, wingnut- said:

Is this symbolism?

Luke 23:39 Then one of the criminals who were hanged blasphemed Him, saying, “If You are the Christ, save Yourself and us.”

40 But the other, answering, rebuked him, saying, “Do you not even fear God, seeing you are under the same condemnation? 41 And we indeed justly, for we receive the due reward of our deeds; but this Man has done nothing wrong.” 42 Then he said to Jesus, “Lord, remember me when You come into Your kingdom.”

43 And Jesus said to him, “Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.”

The original manuscripts do not have comma's in the text. It's translator bias wingnut.

Quote

I Thessalonians 4: 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

That's when He descends from heaven, and who is that He is bringing with Him?

"Sleep in Jesus" is another way of saying they're dead in their graves.

[wingnut-]

30 minutes ago, Heb 13:8 said:

The original manuscripts do not have comma's in the text. It's translator bias wingnut.

 

Comma or no comma, He still says that today he will be with Him in paradise.

 

31 minutes ago, Heb 13:8 said:

"Sleep in Jesus" is another way of saying they're dead in their graves.

 

Then how can He bring them with Him out of heaven and then shortly after raise their bodies?  Your argument makes no sense at all.

[Heb 13:8]

4 hours ago, wingnut- said:

Comma or no comma, He still says that today he will be with Him in paradise.

Read it now.. 43 And Jesus said to him, “Assuredly, I say to you today, you will be with Me in Paradise.”

Quote

Then how can He bring them with Him out of heaven and then shortly after raise their bodies?  Your argument makes no sense at all.

No, God raises the dead and brings them with Him too heaven, not out of heaven. lol.

[wingnut-]

4 hours ago, Heb 13:8 said:

Read it now.. 43 And Jesus said to him, “Assuredly, I say to you today, you will be with Me in Paradise.”

 

So you think moving the comma around validates your claim?  First you say there shouldn't be a comma, now you want to move it around and manipulate scripture to make it say what you want it to say?  UNBELIEVABLE!!  Just when I think I've seen it all.  Wow!

 

[OneLight]

I hope everyone realizes that the author of Luke was not even there when Christ died on the cross.  What we have was an oral version of what the disciples spoke.  Second, when someone converses in real life, there is no comma, periods, explanation marks or questions marks.  These were put in for ease of reading centuries later when it was translated.

I suggest that we look at how it was translated word for word without the comma. (http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/NTpdf/luk23.pdf)

AND said to-him THE JESUS AMEN I-AM sayING to-YOU toDAY WITH ME YOU-SHALL-BE IN THE paradise

There is not one translation I can find where they disagree with each other as to where the comma is to be placed.  People try to twist scripture for a reason, and that is to support their theology.  Let the scripture speak to you through the Holy Spirit, not your intellect.