Revelation, Sequenced by the Actual Events

[wingnut-]

On 6/12/2017 at 5:05 PM, iamlamad said:

In my studies, I believe the rapture will take place a moment before this earthquake.  Further, I believe this earthquake will be caused by the dead in Christ rising.

 

I don't disagree with this, we see the same thing happen in Matthew 27 following the only other mass resurrection recorded in the bible, so there certainly is an apparent connection between mass resurrections and earthquakes.

 

On 6/12/2017 at 5:05 PM, iamlamad said:

You seem to think They can actually SEE His face. I don't.

 

Well, John quoted them saying it.  Why do you think they are hiding and asking that mountains fall on them?  Is it because they saw something that scared them that much, or just because they are skittish?  Perhaps afraid of the dark?

 

On 6/12/2017 at 5:05 PM, iamlamad said:

Do you imagine they will hide in the rocks for the 7 years?

 

Obviously not, this happens much later than you believe.

 

On 6/12/2017 at 5:05 PM, iamlamad said:

One thing that puzzles me: HOW will the entire world know it is the start of the DAY when then don't know the scriptures?

 

The two witnesses prophesying in Jerusalem for 3 1/2 years prior to this event.

 

On 6/12/2017 at 5:05 PM, iamlamad said:

I see no problem with them asking "who is able to stand?" They may be asking this all through the week.

 

They ask this as a result of seeing something so terrifying they would rather have mountains fall on them than face it.  They won't be asking it through the week because during the week they think the beast is all powerful, which is why they ask who can make war against him.  They understand who can, once they realize the wrath of the Lamb is coming, which they will know about thanks to the two witnesses they thought they had seen the last of.  Until of course their bodies rise with the rest, then the terror sets in.  You don't see them hiding in caves asking mountains to fall on them when the beast comes on the scene do you?  It's pretty clear who they fear most.

 

On 6/12/2017 at 5:36 PM, iamlamad said:

For every posttrib argument there is a pretrib answer. You cannot prove, just as no other posttribber can, that this is in reference to Paul's rapture. In fact, it very well could be God gathering together all the Jews, from heaven and earth, to the land of Israel. The truth is, this gathering simply does not fit Paul's rapture, which will gather ONLY from earth. When are you going to address this problem?

 

There is no problem except with your understanding in regards to who is in heaven.  That is where deceased people go upon death, their natural bodies remain on earth, and this is what is raised and made incorruptible at the gathering.  We are all changed at the same time, and it happens in the air, which is where the clouds are found.  The passage says from one end of heaven to the other, and Paul wrote this which you don't seem to want to accept.

 

I Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

 

God is not bringing those who sleep from the earth, because God is not coming from earth, He is coming from heaven.

 

On 6/12/2017 at 5:40 PM, iamlamad said:

Peter is talking about CHURCH people - born again people.

 

You really need to make up your mind, you just argued this was for Jewish people several posts ago, the dispersion, remember?

 

On 6/12/2017 at 5:40 PM, iamlamad said:

You might as well face the truth: there are two people groups whom God has called "the elect."

 

You might as well face the truth, there is only one group called the elect, and their names are found in the Book of Life.  What does the bible say about them, chosen before the foundation of the world.

 

On 6/12/2017 at 5:43 PM, iamlamad said:

When Jesus comes as shown in 1 thes. 4. the head and body will be together.

 

Once those asleep and those who are alive and remain are gathered together, exactly, that is the marriage.  The two become one, it is the scriptural definition of a marriage.  John doesn't have to write what has been written so clearly in scripture, it should be rather obvious what a marriage covenant is and how it is defined.

God bless

[wingnut-]

6 hours ago, Keras said:

I know that most Christians like to think that the spiritual change described in 1 Corinthians 15:50-56, will happen to them either at their death, or at Jesus' Return.

 

Well, I can't speak for those who believe it happens at their death, because they apparently aren't regarding the scripture which states we will all be changed at the same time.  That being said, Paul does in fact tell us when this occurs in the following passage.

 

I Corinthians 15:20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming.

 

At His coming, pretty definitive time frame.  This is the first resurrection John speaks of in Revelation 20, because that is precisely what it is, a resurrection, as the passage in I Corinthians states.  The GWTJ comes after the millennium, which is after the first resurrection.

God bless

 

 

[wingnut-]

On 6/12/2017 at 4:18 PM, iamlamad said:

I see a problem.

Luke 17:

³⁴ I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.

³⁵ Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

³⁶ Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

³⁷ And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.

In the Luke version of one taken and one left, WHERE are those that are "taken" actually taken?  Jesus' answer does NOT sound like the rapture. It sounds much more like the parable of the tares.  So how do we know if those taken in the Matthew 24 scripture are those "in Christ" and raptured or those living in darkness and thrown into hell? In context, Jesus had just told about Noah and the suddenness of those taken then. His point was not speaking of Noah or the 8, but of all those who died. They woke up one morning thinking that day would be just like all other days - -right up until it began to rain. I personally do not think these verses are speaking about the rapture. I could be wrong.

It is perhaps the most illustrative of people taken. But I am not sure they are taken in the gathering.

 

It's really not a problem, you only have two options here.  They are either believers being gathered, or they are unbelievers being gathered.  There are multiple accounts of believers being gathered in scripture, this is simply not the case with unbelievers.  Granted, we do see the dragon, beast, and false prophet send out three unclean spirits to gather their army for the battle of the great day of God Almighty in Revelation 16.  However, this gathering is to march on Jerusalem just prior to Jesus' coming.

So what we have are believers and unbelievers being gathered at approximately the same time, the unbeliever first, the believer soon after.  They are all going to the exact same battle, and the exact same place.  Luke refers to the eagles being gathered, and what we see in Revelation are birds being told to gather by the angel for the great supper of God which occurs when Jesus arrives on the white horse with His army.  So what does Luke say exactly in verse 37, "Wheresoever the body is", to me it is a reference to the body of Christ.

The army that the enemy gathers are from the ten kings, and an overall view of how this is done simply doesn't strike me as a supernatural gathering such as has been declared in scripture for believers.  So I honestly do not believe Luke is describing anything different than Matthew did, just a different way of saying it, still putting them in the exact same place.  The problem with it being unbelievers, why would only one be taken and one left?  The comparison with Noah simply doesn't fit, because everyone outside of the ark died, not a 50/50 ratio, it was a 100% kill ratio.

God bless

[wingnut-]

On 6/12/2017 at 4:29 PM, iamlamad said:

For sure, some of His people living in Judea will flee. But:

Zech 14:² For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

³ Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

⁴ And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

⁵ And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the Lord my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

It seems there are many more that did NOT flee, but will flee when Jesus touches down. I don't know why they don't leave. Perhaps many are held prisoner in Jerusalem.

 

You bring up an excellent point with this passage from Zechariah.  I agree not all of the Jews leave Jerusalem as they were told to do, the why would seem to be because they didn't listen, or didn't know scripture enough to recognize it was time to leave.  Perhaps they are prisoners, or perhaps they just remained unseen through the mayhem, we can only speculate.

What we do know is that they were not caught up in the gathering, and we know this because they are still here when Jesus touches down.  There is only one group of survivors in Jerusalem that give glory to God, and these would appear to be the people who will inhabit the millennial kingdom in their natural state.

They are not all Jews though, and this is made clear through the OT prophecies that tell us that it is not only some Jews that inhabit the millennial kingdom, but there are other nations from that region who also inhabit the millennial kingdom, such as Egypt and Assyria.  Keep in mind that Jerusalem is in possession of the Gentiles for this time period, so the half of the city that escapes through the mountain pass are not only Jews, just like the half that is killed are not only Jews.  The half that is killed may not be Jews at all, but some of the survivors have to be from more than one ethnicity based on the inhabitants of the millennial kingdom.

God bless

[Keras]

6 hours ago, wingnut- said:

Well, I can't speak for those who believe it happens at their death, because they apparently aren't regarding the scripture which states we will all be changed at the same time.  That being said, Paul does in fact tell us when this occurs in the following passage.

I Corinthians 15:20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming.

At His coming, pretty definitive time frame.  This is the first resurrection John speaks of in Revelation 20, because that is precisely what it is, a resurrection, as the passage in I Corinthians states.  The GWTJ comes after the millennium, which is after the first resurrection.

Would you like to try and explain from Paul's prophecy, just who will be made alive at Jesus' Coming?  Will it be every Christian who have ever lived?  Maybe just every martyr since Stephen?  

But Revelation 20:4 is undeniable: only the martyrs who have been killed by the Anti-Christ will come to life at Jesus' Return.

Paul does NOT say 'all' Christians in verse 22, so we know from the Revelation verse that it will be only those martyrs brought to life at Jesus' Coming.  Not even to immortality, as that doesn't happen until the GWT judgement.

All of the chapter in Corinthians is just a reiteration of God's promise of Eternal life for those who Overcome. This Promise will be fulfilled for those whose names are in the Book of life, after the Millennium and the GWT Judgement.

[wingnut-]

7 hours ago, Keras said:

Would you like to try and explain from Paul's prophecy, just who will be made alive at Jesus' Coming?  Will it be every Christian who have ever lived?  Maybe just every martyr since Stephen?  

 

Verse 23 tells us that.

 

I Corinthians 15:23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming.

 

The firstfruits are those who are asleep, and those who are Christ's at His coming would be those who are alive and remain.  Those who are asleep would be every believer since Christ's resurrection.

 

7 hours ago, Keras said:

Paul does NOT say 'all' Christians in verse 22

 

He most certainly does, in fact ALL is the very word he uses.

 

I Corinthians 15: 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.

 

7 hours ago, Keras said:

But Revelation 20:4 is undeniable: only the martyrs who have been killed by the Anti-Christ will come to life at Jesus' Return.

 

Let's break down Revelation 20:4 one sentence at a time.

 

Revelation 20:4  4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them.

 

John sees thrones, and they sat on them, and those sitting on them will judge.  So who are they?

 

Revelation 1:4 John, to the seven churches which are in Asia:

Grace to you and peace from Him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven Spirits who are before His throne, 5 and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler over the kings of the earth.

To Him who loved us and washed us from our sins in His own blood, 6 and has made us kings and priests to His God and Father, to Him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen.

 

Revelation 5:9 And they sang a new song, saying:

“You are worthy to take the scroll,
And to open its seals;
For You were slain,
And have redeemed us to God by Your blood
Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation,
10 And have made us kings and priests to our God;
And we shall reign on the earth.”

 

I Corinthians 6:3  Do you not know that we shall judge angels? How much more, things that pertain to this life?

 

Now, the above passages touch on a wide variety of people, the first passage addresses the 7 churches, the second passage addresses the elders and other heavenly beings, and the third passage addresses believers in general.  All made kings and priests, and all reigning with Him on earth.  Nothing about only martyrs, in fact, we haven't gotten to them yet, but we do in the next sentence from Revelation 20:4.

 

Revelation 20:4  ...Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands.

 

See that, we are talking about two different groups.  He saw the people on the thrones, THEN he sees the martyrs.

 

Revelation 20:4  ...And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

 

They in the final sentence represents both groups from the previous two verses, which was addressed in the other passages in regards to who lives and reigns with Christ on earth.  Scripture touches on this matter numerous times, believers will be kings and priests in the millennial kingdom, ALL of them.

 

I Peter 2:9 But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;

 

God bless

[Keras]

3 hours ago, wingnut- said:

John sees thrones, and they sat on them, and those sitting on them will judge.  So who are they?

Good and detailed post, but you make a few assumptions.

Nowhere is it said that we Christians will judge people, let alone the martyrs.  I see those Judges, already sitting on thrones; as the 24 Elders referred to in Rev 4.

Your 1 Cor 15:22 quote is just another reiteration of God's promise to give Eternal life to His victorious people. This will happen, as clearly stated; at the GWT Judgement of all the dead; good and evil people.  Your idea of any earlier resurrection of the dead is wrong and is just another false idea on top of the seriously bad theory of a rapture to heaven.

Who is it that will be gathered at Jesus' Return? God's holy people, those who have endured until the end, Rev 13:9-10. The 'Victorious' ones, as described in the Ephesus Church - Revelation 2:7, the Smyrna Church - Rev 2:10-11, the Pergamum Church - Rev 2:17, the Thyatira Church - Rev 2:26, the Sardis Church - Rev 3:5, the Philadelphia Church - Rev 3:12, the Laodicea Church - Rev 3:21 To anyone who is Victorious, I will grant a place beside Me on My Throne, as I Myself was Victorious and sat down with My Father on His Throne. You have ears; so hear what the Spirit says to all the Churches!  

To be victorious, we must first  fight  and overcome for God. We will sit with Him after the Millennium. Revelation 21:7

[wingnut-]

6 hours ago, Keras said:

Good and detailed post, but you make a few assumptions.

Nowhere is it said that we Christians will judge people, let alone the martyrs.  I see those Judges, already sitting on thrones; as the 24 Elders referred to in Rev 4.

Your 1 Cor 15:22 quote is just another reiteration of God's promise to give Eternal life to His victorious people. This will happen, as clearly stated; at the GWT Judgement of all the dead; good and evil people.  Your idea of any earlier resurrection of the dead is wrong and is just another false idea on top of the seriously bad theory of a rapture to heaven.

Who is it that will be gathered at Jesus' Return? God's holy people, those who have endured until the end, Rev 13:9-10. The 'Victorious' ones, as described in the Ephesus Church - Revelation 2:7, the Smyrna Church - Rev 2:10-11, the Pergamum Church - Rev 2:17, the Thyatira Church - Rev 2:26, the Sardis Church - Rev 3:5, the Philadelphia Church - Rev 3:12, the Laodicea Church - Rev 3:21 To anyone who is Victorious, I will grant a place beside Me on My Throne, as I Myself was Victorious and sat down with My Father on His Throne. You have ears; so hear what the Spirit says to all the Churches!  

To be victorious, we must first  fight  and overcome for God. We will sit with Him after the Millennium. Revelation 21:7

 

I agree that nowhere does it say we judge people, but we do judge the angels.  I assume the scripture that says that is referring to fallen angels.  As far as the resurrection is concerned, it will take place in the air, or clouds, as in the area of heaven we see when we look up.  That is where scripture says we are gathered to.  I do not believe we go to where God's throne is, so I suppose it depends on what part of heaven you are referring to.

I see the battle we fight in as Armageddon, which is the first battle at His coming.  The second battle is the Gog-Magog war and according to what I see in that passage, the enemy is defeated by fire from heaven.

 

Revelation 20: Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea. 9 They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them.

 

It just doesn't read to me like we do any fighting in this final battle, but we do see that we are involved in Armageddon from numerous prophecies.  Here are a few of them as I see it.

 

Zechariah 14:5 Then you shall flee through My mountain valley,
For the mountain valley shall reach to Azal.
Yes, you shall flee
As you fled from the earthquake
In the days of Uzziah king of Judah.

Thus the Lord my God will come,
And all the saints with You.

 

If you examine the surrounding passages, you see this is at His coming in the prior verses, and in the verses that follow you see the references to the darkness as a result of the sun, moon, and stars going dark.

 

Joel 2  Blow the trumpet in Zion,
And sound an alarm in My holy mountain!
Let all the inhabitants of the land tremble;
For the day of the Lord is coming,
For it is at hand:
2 A day of darkness and gloominess,
A day of clouds and thick darkness,
Like the morning clouds spread over the mountains.
A people come, great and strong,
The like of whom has never been;
Nor will there ever be any such after them,
Even for many successive generations.

 

In Joel we see the same thing, at His coming, an army the like of whom has never been seen, nor will there ever be after them.  So I don't see us engaging in a second battle, or that statement could not be true.  Notice the final section for confirmation, for many successive generations indicates the millennium follows this great army.  That's how I see it anyway.

God bless

[Keras]

6 hours ago, wingnut- said:

That's how I see it anyway.

Thanks, Wingnut. 

As we have quite different views on future happenings, it's best to leave this discussion now. I will post a sequence of events, supported by many Bible prophesies soon.

[iamlamad]

On 6/13/2017 at 2:56 PM, wingnut- said:

 

We don't get our new bodies on earth, Paul is clear on where this occurs.

 

I Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

 

I Thessalonians 4: 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

 

 

I am not moving it anywhere, this is where scripture tells us it happens.

 

 

Those who are alive and remain will be caught up, I would think that is fairly obvious from the passage.  They are part of the body, so they will be caught up the same way anyone else that is alive and remain would be.  It would appear they account for the majority of those who are alive and remain.

 

 

It's not my timing, Paul is not vague at all about what he is telling us in I Corinthians 15, he dedicates an entire chapter to walking us through the change from the natural to the spiritual.  He is also not vague about the fact we are all changed in the same moment, the twinkling of an eye.

God bless

All those who are a part of the Bride of Christ will get their bodies at HIS COMING as shown in 1 Thes. 4. But those who have died in Christ will come with Him to join with their body in the air. I said, "they return to earth" to get their bodies. They don't get them IN HEAVEN, they come to the earth - but as you said, it will be in the air around the earth.

You are still left with the same problem: HOW will they return to heaven for the marriage and supper? It is my guess this will be at least a one month affair. It will not be instantly. But you leave them on earth when the marriage will be in heaven. There is where they are when John declares the time has come.

Of course you are moving it: to the air. In your imagination, that is where it must be, because that is where all are gathered. But is this the intent of the Author? I don't think so. When I read Rev. 19, I see the church already in heaven. The church or bride of Christ has already made herself ready.

" Those who are alive and remain will be caught up, "  (the Jews who fled)  If they get caught up as you suppose, then you have jumped from the frying pan in the fire, so to speak. SOMEONE has to remain behind to repopulate the earth. In other words, SOMEONE (meaning many, not one) must be in natural bodies. And they MUST BE  believers to enter the Millennial reign of Christ. So in your theory, you have robbed the sheep from the sheep and goat judgment, HIS brethren, and taken away any chance to have children of the Jews in the Millennium.

We agree that we will all be changed at the same moment in time - that is all who are alive and in Christ and a part of the Bride. We DISAGREE on when this happens. You think it will happen in Rev. 19. I think it will happen a moment before the 6th seal.

Please don't try and tell us now that the 6th seal will actually happen at the same time as the Rev. 19 events! John SAW the raptured church in heaven right after the 6th seal.