Revelation, Sequenced by the Actual Events

[Keras]

8 hours ago, shiloh357 said:

No, Revelation 12 pertains to Israel being taken to a safe place.  Tribulation believers will be martyred during at least the first half of the Tribulation.

You and others here fail to understand New Testament teaching that we Christians are the Israel, the Overcomers of  God. Ethnicity and race have no further place in God's plan for mankind. Read Ephesians 2:11-18  and Galatians 3:26-29, plus many other scriptures proving that the people of God are now from every tribe, race, nation and language. That includes Jews who have become Christians, but those Jews who don't are just the same as every other godless person and there is no special redemption for them.

8 hours ago, shiloh357 said:

The judgment of God will last 42 months; it will not be instantaneous.

I was referring to the terrible Day of the Lord's wrath, the Sixth Seal worldwide disaster by fire from the sun, and the verses I gave prove that terrible Day, will be literally just one Day. Nothing would survive if it were longer.

The Great Tribulation of the 7 Trumpets and 7 Bowls will last for 3 1/2 years. Then Jesus will Return. But much must happen before the GT, and it will all commence with the sudden and shocking Day of the Lord's vengeance and wrath. Prophesied and vividly described over 100 times in the Bible.  Why can't you see it?

More info about it all at logostelos.info

[Guest shiloh357]

49 minutes ago, Keras said:

You and others here fail to understand New Testament teaching that we Christians are the Israel, the Overcomers of  God.

No, that is nothing but Antisemitism.  That kind of Antisemitic teaching goes back to the early church fathers who hated the Jews and declared that the Church is the new Israel.    It's called "Replacement Theology" and is rooted in centuries of Christian hatred of the Jews. 

[Keras]

7 hours ago, shiloh357 said:

No, that is nothing but Antisemitism.  That kind of Antisemitic teaching goes back to the early church fathers who hated the Jews and declared that the Church is the new Israel.    It's called "Replacement Theology" and is rooted in centuries of Christian hatred of the Jews. 

This accusation is made from sheer ignorance. You completely fail to understand how the true people of God have always been those who are faithful to Him. The congregation in the desert, the 7000 of Elijah's time, the 3000 Jewish converts at Pentecost, the Pilgrim fathers and now all true Christian believers are the real Israel of God. Those who call themselves Israel and don't believe in the Lord, are of the synagogue of Satan. Revelation 2:9

Read John 3:16, does that say you need to be a Jew to be saved?   But, of course, I know why you have to promote a separate salvation for Christians and Jews. It is so the rapture to heaven theory can work. That false theory falls apart when scriptures like Romans 9:27 But of Israel, [the Jewish people] only a remnant will be saved.  and Isaiah 22:14, Jeremiah 10:18, + are read and not glossed over, as you do.

 

[WholeyGod'schild]

20 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

There is where I see you as missing the facts of the case, which many do, I was only ale to understand this in the last year. Israel REPENTS before the Abomination of Desolation. Malachi 4:5-6 says Elijah will be sent to turn Israel back to God before the Great and Terrible Day of the Lord. Zechariah 14 is Jesus return on Mt Zion. But we see Israel repents in Zechariah 12:10 and are washed in the Blood in Zechariah 13:1.

 

In Malachi he says Elijah will be sent to turn the hearts of fathers and children, people (Jews hearts will be turned). not all of Israel, just people that listen. please don't try to qualify or quantify by a scripture that is also expressed in Revelation 11 tells the power God gives them that will cause many men not race specific to turn to God by the wonders and power of God shown through them as the preach repentance.

Zechariah speaks of the remnant that remains faithful unto God through the tribulation and doesn't take the mark of the beast, most assuredly the ones that run to the hills. they will be the ones (in my opinion, no scripture to back it up) that remain on this earth reigning for 1000 years, before satan is released one last time before being put down for eternity.  I think they will be the ones paid to clean up all the dead bodies, and paid to find bones and burry them for the next 7 years.

20 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

What are the Six Goals of Daniels 70th Week Prophecy? Well one says Israel must ATONE before the 70th Week is over. Why would God protect Israel id she had not Accepted Jesus as her Messiah? In Matthew 24 why does Jesus tell Israel not to go unto the Desert or the Secret Chamber (Where the false prophet and false christ are), but tells the where he will be coming from....The Eastern Skies, just after the Tribulation period....Because they are his by that time, and are LOOKING FOR HIM TO SAVE THEM. Rev. 12 says they are protected in the Wilderness for 1260 Days. Then when Jesus returns he will gather them unto his barn, Israel is the WHEAT, the TARES are Satan's evil minions and the Church of course is in Heaven.

yes they must atone (makes amends, change their heart, turn to God) that isn't God protecting them, that is them realizing they messed up and rejected the true and one son for the living God. How would you or did you get God's protection out of that? see, as you know the Tribulation isn't God killing people, it is his wrath poured out on all mankind. People will be suffering, and in extreme anguish still refusing to turn to God. But there will be people that realize they missed the many signs and wonders, and rejected the true teaching of God over the years. So people will realize they messed up and return to God. Mostly Jews since they have the deepest teaching of God, but lack Jesus in their life. There will be a few Gentiles that turn, but most of them will be the ones that missed the rapture through false teaching, or rejection of teaching of God's truth. The only time it will be over (no chance of salvation, going to hell for eternity) for anyone is 3 things, 1) They rejected Jesus and die before excepting him as their lord and savoir, 2) they take the mark of the beast (turning their soul over to satan). 3)Blasphemy of the Holy spirit. they have till the Return of Jesus on the mount of olives to repent. Then they have 1000 year period to not be let over to the sins of flesh, and deception of Satan for the short release he has. but if failure to turn to God through the blood of Jesus, they will die. Jew and Gentile have zero leg up on one another, or special protection. only leg up one person has on another is knowing of God's truth and being able to turn their prerapture teaching into their subsequent return to God's truth and the blood of Jesus.  holding out in the hills and not in the city will help all mankind to avoid false teachings, murder from people looking to take advantage of the time, and new media that helps the antichrist spread his false doctrine. also many people will be forced to take the mark of the beast in order to shop, trade or travel for a time, and if someone doesn't have knowledge or a root in Christ, they might just fall for the deception. Let the reader understand and run for the hills Mark 13:14

20 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

The 144,000 and those protected in the Wilderness are different. The 144,000 is vague to be honest. They could be 144,000 who were Saints of Old, (I don't know to be honest) they could just be all the Saints, 12 x 12 means FULLNESS X FULLNESS. But we do know they do not represent Israel being protected by God in the Wilderness. 

yes the 144,000 are the saints of God that have kept themselves pure unto him (virgins, they haven't let the sin of this world corrupt them.) they were the first fruits. are they here today and have remained pure? where they in Jesus time and bought through his blood (some of his students that were pure)? where they the first fruits (first born and redeemed /bought) as instructed by God to Moses? or is it a combination of all three, we don't know, but we do know they are all from one of the tribes, all children from the line of Israel.  

Revelation 14:4-5  4These are the ones who have not been defiled with women, for they have kept themselves chaste. These are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever He goes. These have been purchased from among men as first fruits to God and to the Lamb. 5And no lie was found in their mouth; they are blameless.

 

20 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

You missed the point entirely, I stated his Ministry was to Israel only, Jesus stated as much. I DID NOT say he did not come to die for all man-kinds sin, you said I said that, I guess, but I never said that.  The two do not have to be mutually exclusive. Lets look at Matthew 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

There is no difference between the Jew and he Gentile, you are correct, both can only come to God via Jesus Christs blood. But you miss the TIMING ANGLE....Just because Israel/Jewish peoples can only come to Jesus Christ via the Blood doesn't mean they will come to Christ at the same time as the Gentile Church.

Gentiles and Jews can both come to Christ now via the Blood, that's the EXACT SAME for both, they mist repent and turn from their sins via the Blood of Jesus. Likewise all Jewish peoples and Gentiles who miss the Rapture must still repent during the Tribulation in like manner, via the Blood, THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE !! But there is a caveat many people miss.

Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness IN PART is happened to Israel, until the FULNESS of the Gentiles be come in.

What does IN PART mean? It means of course Israel is blinded by God because of their sinning against Him, turning to false gods etc. etc. But there will be Messianic Jews such as yourself, and the Disciples, but 90-95 percent of the Jewish people will be BLINDED until the Church is Raptured. The Church Age so to speak. There are Jews in the Church age who accept Christ OF COURSE, but for the most part they are blinded. Likewise there are many Gentiles are never accept Christ before the Rapture. So both Jews and Gentiles can accept Christ before the Rapture, and both Jews and Gentiles can accept Christ after the Rapture. There is NO DIFFERENCE, as you see. We must all come to Christ via the Blood. BUT.....Israel and the Church are of course different Entities, the Church is Raptured, with the Messianic Jews in tow, and Israel, for the most part will remain on earth after the Rapture, they then REPENT, and are Protected by God, just before

Jesus came to save all Jew and Gentile his actions prove it, and his directions to his disciples tell them his plan.

Jesus brought salvation first to the Israelite, then the Gentile. 

 

23But Jesus did not answer a word. So His disciples came and urged Him, “Send her away, for she keeps crying out after us.”

24He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”

25The woman came and knelt before him. “Lord, help me!” she said.

26But Jesus replied, “It is not right to take the children’s bread and toss it to the dogs.”

27“Yes, Lord,” she said, “even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their master’s table.”

28“O woman,” Jesus answered, “your faith is great! Let it be done for you as you desire.” And her daughter was healed from that very hour.

Also look at the woman at the well,  in John 4 he talks with her and brings salvation to her. If he was planning on bringing salvation to the Jews alone, the conversation would have never happened, unless you Believe Jesus made a mistake or didn't have a plan that was unfolding before the readers eyes. then it progresses to other Samaritans receiving his living water.

³⁹ Many of the Samaritans from that town believed in him because of the woman’s testimony, “He told me everything I ever did.” ⁴⁰ So when the Samaritans came to him, they urged him to stay with them, and he stayed two days. ⁴¹ And because of his words many more became believers.

⁴² They said to the woman, “We no longer believe just because of what you said; now we have heard for ourselves, and we know that this man really is the Savior of the world.”

 

All that turn their back on God, and the blood of Jesus are blind and will not know it, they become blind guides. first the Jew, and now even people that claim to know Jesus have slipped and are blind guides (lots of TV preachers). so as when Jesus came to save all, he started in the hearts of the Israelites, and carried it unto the Gentiles. That is spoken of in many passages throughout the new and old testament, the events weren't a mistake and were known well before by God.

I leave you with this passages that kind of encompasses the above in whole and the failings of the Israelite people.

Matthew 23:38-39 38Look, your house is left to you desolate. 39For I tell you that you will not see Me again until you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord.’”

Luke 13:34-35 34O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those sent to her! How often I have longed to gather your children together as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were unwilling. 35Look, your house is left to you desolate. And I tell you, you will not see Me again until you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord.’”

they won't see God or protection till they say:  "Baruch HaShem Adonai Eloheynu"  Blessed be the name of the Lord our God.

Be blessed.

 

Edited June 8, 2017 by WholeyGod'schild
some of what was typed for some reason didn't show up.

[n2thelight]

Revelation 1:10 "I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,"

This verse is the key to understanding the book of Revelation. Without a clear and full understanding of it, the entire book just will not make sense. The sequence of order will seem strange.

"I"; this is John speaking and telling us where he was. "I was in the Spirit", not in his flesh body; "on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet". John is taken forward in time, "in the Spirit", to the day of the Lord. The "Day of the Lord" is not referring to Sunday or Saturday. This is the same "Day of the Lord" Paul speaks about in I Thessalonians 5:2, as "coming as a thief in the night". Later in II Thessalonians 2:2-3 Paul makes it clear that at the "Day of the Lord" Christ's return will not happen until "after there will be a great falling away first; and "that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition". Satan must be revealed in his role as the Antichrist first, before that seventh trumpet can sound, the last trumpet.

The time, or day, John was taken to was beyond our time frame, however we are living in the generation that will see it come to pass, and live through what John saw and lived, while in the Spirit. There is only one day that is called "The Day of the Lord" in all the Scriptures.

Isaiah 2:12 "For the day of the Lord of hosts shall be upon every one that is proud and lofty, and upon every one that is lifted up; and he shall be brought low."

This is the day that our Lord returns. This is the day "God's cup of wrath" is poured out upon His enemies. So John was taken in the Spirit to the last day of this earth age, before the start of the age of the Millennium. If you are still in your flesh body, that day hasn't happened yet, and it is still future to us.

Every verse that you read in Revelation from this verse to the end of chapter twenty two, will be viewed from the Lord's day, either looking backwards or forwards a short period of time. If you don't come to that point of time in your understanding with John, the rest of what he is saying just will not make sense.

https://www.theseason.org/revelation/revelation1.htm

[n2thelight]

So when this rapture happen what are people gonna say happened?

Im guessing the trib saints will say that Christ came and raptured them .

 

I ask because Christ Himself clearly stated that if anybody were to say that to believe them not

Matthew 24:26 "Wherefore if they shall say unto you, 'Behold, He is in the desert;' go not forth: 'Behold, He is in the secret chambers;' believe it not."

Matthew 24:23 "Then if any man shall say unto you, 'Lo, here is Christ,' or 'there,' believe it not."

My point being if anyone has to tell you Christ came,He hasn't!!!!

[Revelation Man]

15 hours ago, Keras said:

Well, if the 'rapture' is from the father of lies, a Satanic deception and the Bible doesn't have a verse that proves it; then why do you believe it?

You are right, about 75-85% of Christians do believe in a rapture to heaven. This is often because that theory is all they have been taught and it also shows how successful Satan has been in deceiving so many.

Or it shows you and others like you are easily deceived. And the bible clearly have verses I have cited to you, ones your clearly know about in Thessalonians and Corinthians. Remember what Jesus told the disciples, he gave them the word in parables, because it  is not given unto the world to understand the things of God. Paul clearly explained the Rapture, you just don't want to hear it. 

15 hours ago, Keras said:

The dead souls kept under the Altar in heaven, in Rev 6:9-11 are all the martyrs since Stephen.  But only the ones killed by the 'beast' are brought back to life at Jesus Return. Rev 20:4  They reign with Him, along with those who remain alive, ON EARTH for the 1000 years.

 

No they are not, once again not understanding the Rapture places you at a disadvantage and throws your understanding off kilter. The Martyrs under the Alter want revenge on people that are ALIVE ON EARTH !! As in the present tense.

9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 

10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? (ON EARTH...They were killed by those that Dwell ON EARTH...They want Revenge)

11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

These are Tribulation Martyrs, the Rapture has already happened.  The people ON EARTH [TODAY] killed them.

 

[Revelation Man]

14 hours ago, shiloh357 said:

No, that is nothing but Antisemitism.  That kind of Antisemitic teaching goes back to the early church fathers who hated the Jews and declared that the Church is the new Israel.    It's called "Replacement Theology" and is rooted in centuries of Christian hatred of the Jews. 

I don't think they are Anti-Semitic brother, though of course some can be, but mostly I just see them as deceived. Satan is as we know an Angel of light to those who are not weary to his doings. We see him coming, I think many new Christians get into these traditions of men, and Satan can spin a lie better than anybody, so it makes them look like they have a unique understanding that FEW GET... And thus they are hooked. Anytime you think you are part of a rare understanding, you better be weary. Remember the other things that are off kilter also. IMHO, a lot of people just don't understand the scriptures, they are on milk, but trying to eat meat.

But you are correct, some are just hating on the Jewish peoples, though it is nowhere like it was 75 to 100 years ago.

[Guest shiloh357]

7 hours ago, Keras said:

This accusation is made from sheer ignorance. You completely fail to understand how the true people of God have always been those who are faithful to Him. The congregation in the desert, the 7000 of Elijah's time, the 3000 Jewish converts at Pentecost, the Pilgrim fathers and now all true Christian believers are the real Israel of God. Those who call themselves Israel and don't believe in the Lord, are of the synagogue of Satan. Revelation 2:9

Read John 3:16, does that say you need to be a Jew to be saved?   But, of course, I know why you have to promote a separate salvation for Christians and Jews. It is so the rapture to heaven theory can work. That false theory falls apart when scriptures like Romans 9:27 But of Israel, [the Jewish people] only a remnant will be saved.  and Isaiah 22:14, Jeremiah 10:18, + are read and not glossed over, as you do.

 

The name "Israel" is used 71 times in the NT.   It is never spiritualized to refer to the Church.   Every time it is used it is reference to the physical nation, or those ethnic Jews who are saved.   It is never used to refer to Gentile believers or the Church.

This is not about a separate salvation for Jews and Christians.   The fact is that Israel has a prophetic future and God has made promises to biblical ancient Israel that have never come to pass, yet.   So biblical Israel is still biblical Israel and they will fulfill their prophetic role.

Frankly, you are trying to refute a theological position that you have assigned to me, not one that I have espoused.   You put the lie in my mouth and then argue against it.   It is a very dishonest debate tactic.

[Guest shiloh357]

10 minutes ago, Revelation Man said:

I don't think they are Anti-Semitic brother, though of course some can be, but mostly I just see them as deceived.

I am not calling anyone anti-Semitic, except for the early Church fathers.  They were virulently anti-Semitic and they are the ones responsible for this view that the Church is the new Israel.   It was developed from an anti-Semitism that views Israel as the emblem of God's contempt.   Anti-Semitism was very prevalent in the pagan world and pagans who got saved carried it over into the Church and entire theology was built around projecting their hatred of the Jews on to God.