Revelation, Sequenced by the Actual Events

[iamlamad]

8 hours ago, wingnut- said:

I don't make guesses about things that are not written.  You don't know what I think regarding the scroll because I never said anything about it, please don't take your speculating and assign it to me.  If you want to speculate that is on you, but I will continue to call you out on it when you do.

Sure you do. You are guessing that the gathering in Matthew 24 is the rapture. You are guessing that the coming in 1 Thes. 4 is the same coming as shown in Rev. 19. You are guessing that the order John wrote in Rev. 19 is not really an "order" per se, but just listing things that will happen.  In fact, posttribbers do a lot of guessing. They seldom admit it.

[iamlamad]

8 hours ago, wingnut- said:

 

12 hours ago, iamlamad said:

This reference in 11:12 is ONLY speaking of the two witnesses.

 

Sorry, but that is not what Paul says, he gives you the order, which is why you are way off on this.

 

I Corinthians 15:23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming.

 

There are only two, and one of them already happened, that only leaves one more and Paul tells us that is at His coming.  So the two witnesses must be part of it, there is no other option.

You are guessing: the very thing you said you don't do. It was JOHN that wrote about the two witnesses being called up. Why sidestep and go to Paul? It is VERY PLAIN the way it is written: two witnesses put to death, and two witnesses raised: they are NOT Jesus and the body of Christ. They are two men. They are quite likely Enoch and Elijah - but time will tell.

It is no wonder we disagree: John tells us it is two witnesses. Do you imagine that the Beast of Rev. 13 killed Jesus? Sorry, but Christ is not one of John's two witnesses.

8 hours ago, wingnut- said:

The Old Testament saints already rose, they are the firstfruits mentioned in I Corinthians 15:23.

 

Matthew 27:50 And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice, and yielded up His spirit.

51 Then, behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth quaked, and the rocks were split, 52 and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; 53 and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many.

Wrong again! Only the elders rose. It only tells us many were raised.

 

8 hours ago, wingnut- said:

 

12 hours ago, iamlamad said:

You are confusing the Greek word: prōtos as meaning "first in TIME SEQUENCE" only.

 

Ummmm, the book of Revelation is about a specific time, the end time.  The use of the word first is because it is the first during that time, and there is only one more, after the millennium.

There are only two resurrections: one for the just and one for the unjust. Since all righteous will be a part of the resurrection for the just, and Jesus was a part of that, being the very first one, then it is not a timing kind of word, but a status kind of word. It will be the most honorable of the two resurrections. This is speaking of all time, not just end times. These two resurrections will cover from Adam to the last human born after the Millennial reign.

 

9 hours ago, wingnut- said:

I Corinthians 15:23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming.

 

Sorry, try again, no third or fourth mentioned in Paul's order.

Wrong again: he is only speaking of the church. God will not leave the Old Testament saints un-resurrected.

 

9 hours ago, wingnut- said:

The gathering occurs in the air, on His way to earth, so of course He hasn't arrived yet.  There is no second chance at this, those who are not gathered are either going to die, or they are going to turn to God and enter the millennium to re-populate the earth.  The only group we see do that are in Jersualem, following the resurrection.  This is not confusing.

Yet you imagine that the two witness's resurrection is the rapture. Even in your theory the timing is off. Sorry, but they only testify for 1260 days, then lay dead for 3 1/2 days. Your theory does not fit.
I have to go to church.

[wingnut-]

8 hours ago, iamlamad said:

No different. They were men.

 

Sorry, just another attempt at deflection.  I was simply clarifying that I was speaking about people currently alive, as in today.  Now you want to disagree with me about what I meant, which you are not qualified to do.

 

7 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Posttrib does not believe in any departing from earth, rather believing the bride will fly up and come right back down. John 14 refutes that theory. So does 2 thes. 2. The very theme of this passage is the gathering. The departing comes right after the gathering.

 

Again, I'm not post-trib, but you don't seem to be able to grasp that either.  It is not the same word used for the gathering/ catching away, the falling away is completely different, hence a different word used and a different translation into English.  It does not come afterward, it comes before.

 

Matthew 24:10 And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another.

 

Luke 21:12 But before all these things, they will lay their hands on you and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues and prisons. You will be brought before kings and rulers for My name’s sake. 13 But it will turn out for you as an occasion for testimony.14 Therefore settle it in your hearts not to meditate beforehand on what you will answer; 15 for I will give you a mouth and wisdom which all your adversaries will not be able to contradict or resist. 16 You will be betrayed even by parents and brothers, relatives and friends; and they will put some of you to death. 17 And you will be hated by all for My name’s sake. 18 But not a hair of your head shall be lost. 19 By your patience possess your souls.

 

In both Matthew and Luke's discourses this happens prior to the AoD, just as Paul describes.  This is the falling away, again, a completely different word than the gathering/ catching away.  What do you suppose the betrayal is regarding?

 

7 hours ago, iamlamad said:

It seems you still don't understand: I LOVE this order - for it is truth: Christ was the very first to raise up in the first or primary or chief resurrection: the resurrect for the righteous. The Bride of Christ will be the second wave. The 144,000 will be the third wave.  The Old Testament saints along with those beheaded by the Beast plus the two witnesses will be the fourth wave.

 

You love the order and then add all these extra waves that don't exist in the order, amazing.

 

I Corinthians 15:23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits ( FIRST WAVE already happened), afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming. (SECOND WAVE only other option)

 

Don't let anything like scripture get in the way of your imagination.

 

7 hours ago, iamlamad said:

But there will be ANOTHER resurrection for the Old Testament saints and those beheaded at the 7th vial.

 

Funny, nobody wrote about it anywhere, not according to what Paul wrote, not according to what John wrote, or anyone else for that matter.

 

7 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Again I repeat, 1 thes. 4 tells us Jesus comes. You imagine this is the Rev. 19 coming, but it is not. It will be Him coming FOR His bride, not with His bride.

 

Then surely you can provide the scripture where Jesus tells us He will come again, and again, and again, and again.  And what are all those sleeping people doing following Him out of heaven?  Why follow Him out just to go back where they were?  Funny how every time I post scripture you don't actually address the scripture posted but deflect to different scripture.

 

7 hours ago, iamlamad said:

The Bride of Christ will be THERE for this "metaphor."

 

When the head and body are joined, yes.  And once again you fail to address the scripture posted, this is a common pattern for you.

 

7 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Ad libing again! There is not even one word that hints that group too large to number has been martyred. They were raptured, not martyred!

 

Once again you are the one guilty of that.  Please provide the scripture that states the great multitude was raptured, and the statement that they come out of the tribulation DOES NOT say that.  This is where you are getting creative.

 

5 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Sure you do. You are guessing that the gathering in Matthew 24 is the rapture.

 

I'm not guessing at anything, the word harpazo is used there, and that is where the word rapture is derived from, the latin word for harpazo is rapturo.  Nice try, but you are talking in circles.

 

5 hours ago, iamlamad said:

You are guessing that the coming in 1 Thes. 4 is the same coming as shown in Rev. 19.

 

I'm not guessing, He only said He is coming again.  That means once, you have to add all these extra comings and goings to construct your theory, sorry, but adding things that are not written doesn't work for me.

 

5 hours ago, iamlamad said:

You are guessing that the order John wrote in Rev. 19 is not really an "order" per se, but just listing things that will happen.

 

Again I'm not guessing anything about Revelation 19, it is simply you not understanding the timing as I see it and then confusing your theory with what I believe.  You are guessing that I believe these things are just listed, and you are incorrect about that as well.

 

5 hours ago, iamlamad said:

You are guessing: the very thing you said you don't do. It was JOHN that wrote about the two witnesses being called up. Why sidestep and go to Paul?

 

Again, I'm not guessing, and I referred you to what Paul wrote because he gives a definitive order that John also is clear about.  There is only one resurrection of God's people in the end times, you insist on penciling in things that don't appear.

 

I Corinthians 15:23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming.

 

Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

 

The two witnesses can only be a part of this resurrection because it is the only one for God's people, the resurrection after the millennium is for the dead, as in non-believers.

 

5 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Wrong again! Only the elders rose. It only tells us many were raised.

 

And here you are guessing again.  The passage does not say only the elders rose, it says many, and 24 does not qualify as many over the span of roughly 4000 years.

 

5 hours ago, iamlamad said:

There are only two resurrections: one for the just and one for the unjust. Since all righteous will be a part of the resurrection for the just, and Jesus was a part of that, being the very first one, then it is not a timing kind of word, but a status kind of word. It will be the most honorable of the two resurrections. This is speaking of all time, not just end times. These two resurrections will cover from Adam to the last human born after the Millennial reign.

 

Revelation is a revealing of the end times, the first resurrection is the first resurrection in this specific revealing of prophecy.  It is not speaking of all time, and the two resurrections John speaks of are one for believers, and one for non-believers.  Paul confirms this in his order from I Corinthians, Christ's resurrection as a past event, and only one more for God's people to follow.

 

Revelation 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

 

This is the second resurrection John spoke of, and it is for people outside of salvation, hence why they are judged and then cast into the lake of fire, the second death.  This group dates all the way back to the beginning, and includes anyone who did not accept Jesus from the beginning of time until this time.

 

5 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Wrong again: he is only speaking of the church. God will not leave the Old Testament saints un-resurrected.

 

The OT saints were already resurrected as firstfruits.

 

I Corinthians 15: 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming.

 

The second group, those who are His at His coming is where the church fits in, along with the two witnesses as it is the only resurrection left for anyone to be part of as far as God's people are concerned.

 

5 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Yet you imagine that the two witness's resurrection is the rapture.

 

It has to be, there is only one more resurrection, any other theory must add a resurrection that neither Paul or John wrote about.

God bless

[iamlamad]

6 hours ago, wingnut- said:

Again, I'm not post-trib, but you don't seem to be able to grasp that either.  It is not the same word used for the gathering/ catching away, the falling away is completely different, hence a different word used and a different translation into English.  It does not come afterward, it comes before.

Actually "falling away" is a bad translation and will not happen as you suspect. It is a departing, and it is in reference to the Bride of Christ. It does not matter that it is not the typical Greek word used for the catching up. What matters is how Paul is using this word "Apostasy" and  what his meaning was in using it. In context, it can only mean a departing of the bride - the very one who is doing the restraining. The Bride will be taken out of the way, and THEN the man of sin will be revealed.  It is the Holy Spirit IN the church that is restraining, but when the church has departed, He will have no one to work through for a period of time. And then the man of sin will be revealed.

I grasp that you are not pretrib, so I know you have missed it somewhere.

[iamlamad]

6 hours ago, wingnut- said:

Luke 21:12 But before all these things, they will lay their hands on you and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues and prisons. You will be brought before kings and rulers for My name’s sake. 13 But it will turn out for you as an occasion for testimony.14 Therefore settle it in your hearts not to meditate beforehand on what you will answer; 15 for I will give you a mouth and wisdom which all your adversaries will not be able to contradict or resist. 16 You will be betrayed even by parents and brothers, relatives and friends; and they will put some of you to death. 17 And you will be hated by all for My name’s sake. 18 But not a hair of your head shall be lost. 19 By your patience possess your souls.

 

In both Matthew and Luke's discourses this happens prior to the AoD, just as Paul describes.  This is the falling away, again, a completely different word than the gathering/ catching away.  What do you suppose the betrayal is regarding?

This scripture is speaking of the church age, not the end times. Your timing is off yet again.

[iamlamad]

6 hours ago, wingnut- said:

 

14 hours ago, iamlamad said:

It seems you still don't understand: I LOVE this order - for it is truth: Christ was the very first to raise up in the first or primary or chief resurrection: the resurrect for the righteous. The Bride of Christ will be the second wave. The 144,000 will be the third wave.  The Old Testament saints along with those beheaded by the Beast plus the two witnesses will be the fourth wave.

 

You love the order and then add all these extra waves that don't exist in the order, amazing.

What is so amazing about the truth? It is absolute fact: Jesus rose as the firstfruits of the only resurrection there is for the righteous: in Rev. 20 in KJV it is poorly called "the first resurrection." But since it will be the only resurrection for the righteous, all the righteous who will be resurrected will be resurrected in this most honorable of resurrections.  Jesus was the first. The bride of Christ will be next. The 144,000 will be next. Then finally, after the days of GT, at the 7th vial, those beheaded will rise, along with the two witnesses and along with the Old Testament saints. All of these groups will get resurrected - and it will all be called the "first" or most honorable resurrection.  It is NOT "first" as in sequence, and it is not just a one time thing, as proved by Jesus' resurrection.

[iamlamad]

6 hours ago, wingnut- said:

I Corinthians 15:23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits ( FIRST WAVE already happened), afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming. (SECOND WAVE only other option)

If you read Rev. 14 more closely you will see the 144,000 are where the 4 Beasts are: before the throne of God.

And you are missing the fact that only the elders of the Old Covenant rose when Jesus rose. Put on your thinking cap: when God raises the Old Covenant saints, that will include many from before the flood. Their quarks or atoms (whatever level God will bring their bodies together) may be spread half way around the world. When God brings all those quarks or atoms together - instantly - it will shake the earth so violently that the mountains will shake right down into the earth and disappear. We find such and earthquake at the 7th vial. God is not going to leave them in the ground.

[iamlamad]

6 hours ago, wingnut- said:

Funny, nobody wrote about it anywhere, not according to what Paul wrote, not according to what John wrote, or anyone else for that matter.

For once I can almost agree: John didn't write about the resurrection of the Old Testament saints. But God gave us CLUES.  Not only that, but He gives revelation knowledge to those who know how to receive it.

Edited June 19, 2017 by iamlamad

[iamlamad]

6 hours ago, wingnut- said:

 

14 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Again I repeat, 1 thes. 4 tells us Jesus comes. You imagine this is the Rev. 19 coming, but it is not. It will be Him coming FOR His bride, not with His bride.

 

Then surely you can provide the scripture where Jesus tells us He will come again, and again, and again, and again.  And what are all those sleeping people doing following Him out of heaven?  Why follow Him out just to go back where they were?  Funny how every time I post scripture you don't actually address the scripture posted but deflect to different scripture.

That is really not a dumb question: they come to the air above the earth (see? I did not say earth) to get their BODIES. They will not be whole until they are back in a flesh body.

I ignore many of your scriptures because they don't even fit what we are saying. For example, the two witnesses resurrection. Indeed, it seems your thinking and my thinking on many of these scriptures seems to be from opposite sides of the planet. It is the word of God, but the difference is in how we read and understand it. The two witnesses will be two MEN.

By the way, the scripture in 1 Thes. 4 is ONE COMING. The scripture in Matthew 24 is a DIFFERENT coming. Now we have two more comings shown in scripture. I cannot help it if you see only one.

Edited June 19, 2017 by iamlamad

[iamlamad]

6 hours ago, wingnut- said:

 

14 hours ago, iamlamad said:

The Bride of Christ will be THERE for this "metaphor."

 

When the head and body are joined, yes.  And once again you fail to address the scripture posted, this is a common pattern for you.

Here is the scripture:

John 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also.

And your comment:

"Jesus says He will go and prepare a place, and COME AGAIN and receive them to Himself.  He is coming to earth again, that is where He will be, that is where we will be.  He doesn't receive us to Himself, UNTIL HE COMES AGAIN."

Yes, He IS coming, TWO MORE TIMES. But in this scripture He is only addressing His coming FOR His saints. He said He will go a prepare a place. We know that is Heaven. We know He will be in heaven during the 70th week. So if the rapture comes before the week, and we will be with HIm then we MUST be in heaven - for that is where HE will be.

And then that scripture will make sense: He prepared houses and then takes us to the houses He has prepared. It also fits the scriptures about us not being here for His wrath. It fits 1 & 2nd Thes. It fits Rev. 7 to a T. It fits with the 5th seal also.

If people would just leave Revelation in the order it is written, showing the church in heaven in chapter 7 (proving there was a coming to the air before chapter 7) and then another coming WITH the saints in Rev. 19, we would not be discussing this.  Don't get excited: it is not going to happen.