The C0uncil 0f Trent

[OldSchool2]

1 hour ago, OakWood said:

So what? How is this relevant to the fact that Luther knew that Catholicism preached false doctrines? He jumped, he was pushed, he didn't jump, he wasn't pushed.... the end result is the same.......... the Protestant Reformation. Luther would have left sooner or later anyway...

Luther's "Here I stand" displayed a determination on his part to neither back down or leave the Catholic Church.

And it wasn't Luther against his church but a priest vs. a  pope over indulgences.

[OakWood]

2 hours ago, OldSchool2 said:

Luther's "Here I stand" displayed a determination on his part to neither back down or leave the Catholic Church.

And it wasn't Luther against his church but a priest vs. a  pope over indulgences.

As I have already said Luther didn't want to leave the Catholic church originally.....

[Willa]

22 hours ago, inchrist said:

Are you married?

Because just saying you married and cheating on your spouse isnt a marriage.

Marriage requires work, good works to make a marriage well work.

Being in a relationship with God requires work.

Catholics believe you are saved FIRST by grace THEN comes work, because now you in a relationship with God and it requres effort for the kingdom of God.

 

I worked hard on my marriage and ended up backsliding because I made that my priority instead the Kingdom of Heaven and His righteousness.  Were I to work hard to please God I would, and have, also been on the wrong track because self effort leads to self righteousness.  Gal 3:3  Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh? 

When led by the Spirit to hunger for God's Word, to pray and be in fellowship with God, it is Christ in me doing the work and not I.  

 2Co 13:5  Examine yourselves, to see whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Or do you not realize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless indeed you fail to meet the test!

 2Co 3:18 But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory toglory, just as by the Spirit of the Lord.

It is God Who saves us.  It is God Who perfects us, first by Christ's work on the cross, then by the faith He gives us in the resurrection, and finally to make us more like Jesus.  

Gal 2:20 ESV I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. Gal 2:21  I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness were through the law, then Christ died for no purpose.

No, I don't work at my relationship with God.  Saving me and transforming me is completely God's work, so one day I will be able to cast my rewards and crowns at the feet of Jesus knowing that I did none of the work but all the glory goes to Him. 

[OldSchool2]

8 minutes ago, OakWood said:

As I have already said Luther didn't want to leave the Catholic church originally.....

I don't think anyone can assume that a Catholic cleric would ever want to leave the church he grew up in, i.e., Luther's argument was with the papal abuse of indulgences, not Catholicism.

[Willa]

6 hours ago, Judas Machabeus said:

The apostles used the Septuagint as scripture, the septuagint is quoted 80% of the time in the NT, and when the canon was closed it was closed using the Septuagint scripture. The septuagint was the OT canon for 1500 yrs until and disgruntled catholic monk decided he knew better than the Holy Spirit. If you are going to reject the Catholic canon than you must reject the entire canon because it was the Catholic canon upon which the Holy Spirit closed the canon. As for Sola Scriptura... that is a man made tradition again created by a disgruntled catholic monk.

 Actually your statement is false. From the Catechism of the Catholic Church

I. JUSTIFICATION

1989 The first work of the grace of the Holy Spirit is conversion, effecting justification in accordance with Jesus' proclamation at the beginning of the Gospel: "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."³⁸ Moved by grace, man turns toward God and away from sin, thus accepting forgiveness and righteousness from on high. "Justification is not only the remission of sins, but also the sanctification and renewal of the interior man.³⁹

1990 Justification detaches man from sin which contradicts the love of God, and purifies his heart of sin. Justification follows upon God's merciful initiative of offering forgiveness. It reconciles man with God. It frees from the enslavement to sin, and it heals.

1991 Justification is at the same time the acceptance of God's righteousness through faith in Jesus Christ. Righteousness (or "justice") here means the rectitude of divine love. With justification, faith, hope, and charity are poured into our hearts, and obedience to the divine will is granted us.

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s1c3a2.htm

II. GRACE

1996 Our justification comes from the grace of God. Grace is favor, the free and undeserved help that God gives us to respond to his call to become children of God, adoptive sons, partakers of the divine nature and of eternal life.46

1997 Grace is a participation in the life of God. It introduces us into the intimacy of Trinitarian life: by Baptism the Christian participates in the grace of Christ, the Head of his Body. As an "adopted son" he can henceforth call God "Father," in union with the only Son. He receives the life of the Spirit who breathes charity into him and who forms the Church.

1998 This vocation to eternal life is supernatural. It depends entirely on God's gratuitous initiative, for he alone can reveal and give himself. It surpasses the power of human intellect and will, as that of every other creature.47

1999 The grace of Christ is the gratuitous gift that God makes to us of his own life, infused by the Holy Spirit into our soul to heal it of sin and to sanctify it. It is the sanctifying or deifying grace received in Baptism. It is in us the source of the work of sanctification:48

Therefore if any one is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has passed away, behold, the new has come. All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself.49

2000 Sanctifying grace is an habitual gift, a stable and supernatural disposition that perfects the soul itself to enable it to live with God, to act by his love. Habitual grace, the permanent disposition to live and act in keeping with God's call, is distinguished from actual graces which refer to God's interventions, whether at the beginning of conversion or in the course of the work of sanctification.

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s1c3a2.htm

No where in scripture does it say Oral traditions are no longer needed. ACTUALLY if you want to stick to the bible it says the opposite about Oral Tadition.

2 Thessalonians 2:15

So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by our spoken word or by our letter.

So sticking to the bible, it teaches to stand firm to traditions taught by spoken word. So if you are going to claim that we no longer need to follow a teaching that`s taught in the bible than I think you ought to provide the scripture passage that says as much. As for 2 Timothy 3:16 is often cited as the champion of sola scripture lets take a look at what it actually says.

2 Timothy 3:16

All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,

All Scripture is breathed out by God... I agree.... and PROFITABLE for teaching.......

the greek word here is ophelimos meaning helpful or serviceable, ie advantageous:-profit (-able)

2 Tim 3:16 is in no way putting scripture over any other form of teaching. It`s simply giving teaching authority to scripture. It`s not taking away any authority from the Apostles or Oral teachings.

 

Um well that explains co-mediatrix perfectly clear... I was being sarcastic in case that didn`t come through the text. I would like to say that my suspisions were correct. You don`t have any idea what it means, and you`ve probably just be told its bad and should reject it. 

Having carefully read Catholic doctrine from the Catholic church itself, it is no use replying to anything you have to say.  Praying that God give us enlightenment by His Spirit as to the truth of Scripture.  

I believe that God has a remnant in every church that upholds the Bible.  I have every hope that we will meet in heaven someday, in spite of our differences.  Except that when I will be absent from the body I will be in the presence of the Lord, and won't be stopping off in purgatory.   lol.   But I will not reply to theology that defends such error as you promote.  It proven that the Hebrew text was being used in the temple at the time of Jesus, even though the church used the septuagint because of Koine being the trade language.   I totally reject your arguments.   I am sure that you believe them to be true since that is what you have been taught, and you cannot disagree with the doctrine of your church.  I have been free to have been taught by the Holy Spirit and He has set me free from errors taught by the catholics and the world as well, giving me great peace and fellowship with the Father.  Glory to God!  

May God bless you and continue to change both of us into the likeness of Christ.

[Anonymous Aristotle]

4 minutes ago, Willa said:

Having carefully read Catholic doctrine from the Catholic church itself, it is no use replying to anything you have to say.  Praying that God give us enlightenment by His Spirit as to the truth of Scripture.  

I believe that God has a remnant in every church that upholds the Bible.  I have every hope that we will meet in heaven someday, in spite of our differences.  Except that when I will be absent from the body I will be in the presence of the Lord, and won't be stopping off in purgatory.   lol.   But I will not reply to theology that defends such error as you promote.  It proven that the Hebrew text was being used in the temple at the time of Jesus, even though the church used the septuagint because of Koine being the trade language.   I totally reject your arguments.   I am sure that you believe them to be true since that is what you have been taught, and you cannot disagree with the doctrine of your church.  I have been free to have been taught by the Holy Spirit and He has set me free from errors taught by the catholics and the world as well, giving me great peace and fellowship with the Father.  Glory to God!  

May God bless you and continue to change both of us into the likeness of Christ.

God Bless you for that inspired message sister. 

[Guest Judas Machabeus]

18 hours ago, Willa said:

Having carefully read Catholic doctrine from the Catholic church itself, it is no use replying to anything you have to say.  Praying that God give us enlightenment by His Spirit as to the truth of Scripture.  

I believe that God has a remnant in every church that upholds the Bible.  I have every hope that we will meet in heaven someday, in spite of our differences.  Except that when I will be absent from the body I will be in the presence of the Lord, and won't be stopping off in purgatory.   lol.   But I will not reply to theology that defends such error as you promote.  It proven that the Hebrew text was being used in the temple at the time of Jesus, even though the church used the septuagint because of Koine being the trade language.   I totally reject your arguments.   I am sure that you believe them to be true since that is what you have been taught, and you cannot disagree with the doctrine of your church.  I have been free to have been taught by the Holy Spirit and He has set me free from errors taught by the catholics and the world as well, giving me great peace and fellowship with the Father.  Glory to God!  

May God bless you and continue to change both of us into the likeness of Christ.

Quote

Willa "Having carefully read Catholic doctrine from the Catholic church itself,"

But how can this be true, you made a claim against the Catholic Church and I showed that your claim was false? 

Quote

Willa "It proven that the Hebrew text was being used in the temple at the time of Jesus, even though the church used the septuagint because of Koine being the trade language."

Interesting you are so dismissive of the scriptures the Apostles and early Christians used. I'm curious do you reject the septuigent as being scriptural?

Quote

Willa"I am sure that you believe them to be true since that is what you have been taught, and you cannot disagree with the doctrine of your church."

This might shock you but no one is holding a gun to my head and forcing me to believe anything. I look at everything critically and Protestantism was started by a disgruntled Augustinian monk that wanted the faith to fit his believes. He attempted to remove NT books that disagreed with his faith, he added the word only to scripture to force his theology and he successfully removed books from the OT. Sorry but I'm not convinced by a faith tradition that has that as its roots. Your welcome to believe that a single man can take it upon himself to do all these things. But I don't.

 

 

Edited June 27, 2017 by Judas Machabeus
formatting to make it easier to read

[OakWood]

14 hours ago, Judas Machabeus said:

Willa "Having carefully read Catholic doctrine from the Catholic church itself,"

But how can this be true, you made a claim against the Catholic Church and I showed that your claim was false? 

Willa "It proven that the Hebrew text was being used in the temple at the time of Jesus, even though the church used the septuagint because of Koine being the trade language."

Interesting you are so dismissive of the scriptures the Apostles and early Christians used. I'm curious do you reject the septuigent as being scriptural?

Willa"I am sure that you believe them to be true since that is what you have been taught, and you cannot disagree with the doctrine of your church."

This might shock you but no one is holding a gun to my head and forcing me to believe anything. I look at everything critically and Protestantism was started by a disgruntled Augustinian monk that wanted the faith to fit his believes. He attempted to remove NT books that disagreed with his faith, he added the word only to scripture to force his theology and he successfully removed books from the OT. Sorry but I'm not convinced by a faith tradition that has that as its roots. Your welcome to believe that a single man can take it upon himself to do all these things. But I don't.

 

 

Protestantism was NOT started by a disgruntled Augustinian monk. Protestantism was started by lots of different people who once they had read the Bible for themselves discovered the heresies found in Catholic doctrine.

We had the Albigensians, John Wycliffe, the Hugenots, Jan Huss, William Tyndale all who came before Luther. Then there was John Calvin and John Knox. All these are different people from different backgrounds  and different times in history and they had discovered for themselves how Catholicism had corrupted the word of God.

What is different about Luther is that his reformation was successful and this was due in no small part due to the invention of the printing press. Roman Catholics were burning bibles because they didn't want people to discover the truth for themselves. Fancy that, eh? A so-called Christian organisation wilfully destroying the word of God!

But in Luther's time they couldn't burn the bibles fast enough thanks to the Guttenberg press which managed to churn out 3,000 copies a day. The Pope knew the game was up, the cat was out of the bag...... there was no going back.

[existential mabel]

Quote

No, I don't work at my relationship with God.  Saving me and transforming me is completely God's work, so one day I will be able to cast my rewards and crowns at the feet of Jesus knowing that I did none of the work but all the glory goes to Him. 

yes this is so right and yet so hard to do... and then comes along the church to muddy the water with all its rules, regs and traditions. and yet we need some guidance, emphasis on the word some.

yes Gods work takes the glory and it bypasses the ego lol !!!!

[existential mabel]

3 hours ago, OakWood said:

Protestantism was NOT started by a disgruntled Augustinian monk. Protestantism was started by lots of different people who once they had read the Bible for themselves discovered the heresies found in Catholic doctrine.

We had the Albigensians, John Wycliffe, the Hugenots, Jan Huss, William Tyndale all who came before Luther. Then there was John Calvin and John Knox. All these are different people from different backgrounds  and different times in history and they had discovered for themselves how Catholicism had corrupted the word of God.

What is different about Luther is that his reformation was successful and this was due in no small part due to the invention of the printing press. Roman Catholics were burning bibles because they didn't want people to discover the truth for themselves. Fancy that, eh? A so-called Christian organisation wilfully destroying the word of God!

But in Luther's time they couldn't burn the bibles fast enough thanks to the Guttenberg press which managed to churn out 3,000 copies a day. The Pope knew the game was up, the cat was out of the bag...... there was no going back.

Quote

What is different about Luther is that his reformation was successful and this was due in no small part due to the invention of the printing press. Roman Catholics were burning bibles because they didn't want people to discover the truth for themselves.

gosh that is shocking.

i have heard that they kept the bible away from the masses. how does that merit with the script of going into the world and preaching the gospel or something like that dont know the exact verse or wording come to that.