Apologetics and defense of the gospel?

[appy]

Matthew 23 : 3 thru 7

But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach. They tie up heavy, cumbersome loads and put them on other people’s shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them. “Everything they do is done for people to see: They make their phylacteries wide and the tassels on their garments long; they love the place of honor at banquets and the most important seats in the synagogues; they love to be greeted with respect in the marketplaces and to be called ‘Rabbi’ by others.

The above is the meaning of hypocrisy and the very definition of it. In paraphrase, its the “do as I say, not as I do” and “practice what you preach” And Jesus condemned their attitude of pride and self righteousness. The religious leaders had created so many man made rituals that it was impossible to follow. The religious leaders expected others to follow, but yet the religious leaders themselves did not think they too needed to follow all the laws and rituals they demanded others to follow. None of this applies to old testament events that you mentioned. 

[Mike 2]

I have been in debates with Your closest friendnt before, I have found them thought provoking and challenging.

One of the biggest challenges is in the way he writes and trying to determine his actual intention.

I know I have misunderstood him a couple of times in the past.

I can't help but wonder if the word discretion would be the word  Your closest friendnt intended to use and he is caught up in trying to defend a misunderstood/ miscommunicated word term.

I have a professor friend who tells me over and over again that there is always a question behind a question. In other words people don't always clearly say what is on their mind.

I know I definitely fall into that category (that's probably why he keeps bringing it up) so....

1) based on the examples that Your closest friendnt has presented I wonder if there is a mix up in the understanding of the word hypocrisy.

2) in clearing that up will it then be possible to understand the point being made. Is there something interesting in what he is bringing up.

I think it is important in apologetic's to really make the effort to understand another's point of view and its basis. Just because someone may not be using the correct terminology doesn't mean what they are saying is invalid. If we are not willing to do that, we may get stuck and miss out on an opportunity to learn.

I myself do not agree with Your closest friendnt's understanding of hypocrisy (if this is what he truly means) but I think he is on to something....whatever we may choose to call it.

I look at the life of Jacob for example and how before he was born his mother was told that he would would have precedents over his brother....yet he is called a liar for using what was available to him to claim it....

 

There is a reason for debates/ apologetic's maybe this thread is an area where, in a small way, how we can take a look at it in a different way, say as a fair and informative way to learn from debating, to edify rather than beat someone down into submission/ defeat like so many of them do. 

Otherwise........I understand the OP......what's the purpose?

Edited June 12, 2017 by Mike 2

[simplejeff]

18 hours ago, Your closest friendnt said:

Do you think that he doesn't not deserved be loved by JESUS even though he was going to church with not his heart in it. 

Like these who are exposed for pretending (church going) on judgment day ? >>>

Young's Literal Translation
Then shall he say also to those on the left hand, Go ye from me, the cursed, to the fire, the age-during, that hath been prepared for the Devil and his messengers;

Commentary

Matthew Henry Commentary
25:31-46 This is a description of the last judgment. It is as an explanation of the former parables. There is a judgment to come, in which every man shall be sentenced to a state of everlasting happiness, or misery. Christ shall come, not only in the glory of his Father, but in his own glory, as Mediator. The wicked and godly here dwell together, in the same cities, churches, families, and are not always to be known the one from the other;

[Your closest friendnt]

On 6/11/2017 at 6:29 PM, giggling appy said:

Your closest friendnt

The Israelis were defending themselves against the oppressiveness of the canaanites which went to war against the Israelites. There is no disobedience or hypocrisy on Israel's part. I would like you to show me where there is hypocrisy concerning Deborah, Barak, and Jael.  Deborah did not lie to Barak, and Jael did not tell Sisera to hide. 

 

giggling appy 

I got around the scriptures. 

In Judges 4:9

Deborah gives to Barak the word of the Lord.

For the Lord shall sell Sisera into the hand of a woman.

This woman turned out to be Jael, the wife of Heber, a friend of king Jabin of Canaan. 

The leader of the army of King Jabin Sisera lost the battle with Barak and Deborah and he was running for his life, while Barak was after him. 

Here is the interesting part, Sisera came to Jael's tent and that's what Jael (who knew nothing of Deborah's prophecy), told Sisera. 

Judges 4:18, 

And Jael went out to meet Sisera, and said unto him. Turn in, my Lord, turn in to me: fear not. 

And when he had turned in unto her into the tent, she covered him with a mantel. 

19: Sisera asked for water, and she gave him milk, and tenterly cover him, ( an act of reassurance), 

20: Jael promise to him, that she won't let anyone know that he was there, or let anyone come into the tent. 

21: as Sisera was fast asleep, Jael took his life, she kill him, in his sleep. 

Then the prophecy was fulfilled, "Sisera died not bye the hand of Barak who was hunding down Sisera, but by the hand of Jael, a woman who knew nothing about the word of the Lord. 

Build the profile of Jael just in these events, and how and what she did, to get the trust of the great warrior Sisera, and kill him in his sleep, to accomplish the will of the Lord, for Sisera to die by a woman, before Barak gets to him. 

How the Lord as he had promised did not let Sisera die by the hand of Barak, so the word of the Lord was fullfilled not to have Barak honour with the death of Sisera, 

The Lord diprived Barak from this bosting. 

Jael using deceite and pretending to be a protector of Sisera,  (through hipocricy),  brought forth the fruit of the will of the Lord. 

 

[Your closest friendnt]

6 hours ago, simplejeff said:

Like these who are exposed for pretending (church going) on judgment day ? >>>

Young's Literal Translation
Then shall he say also to those on the left hand, Go ye from me, the cursed, to the fire, the age-during, that hath been prepared for the Devil and his messengers;

Commentary

Matthew Henry Commentary
25:31-46 This is a description of the last judgment. It is as an explanation of the former parables. There is a judgment to come, in which every man shall be sentenced to a state of everlasting happiness, or misery. Christ shall come, not only in the glory of his Father, but in his own glory, as Mediator. The wicked and godly here dwell together, in the same cities, churches, families, and are not always to be known the one from the other;

Whom do you think is judging me and you, not only today, or even all the time, for tomorrow and the days to come, is not our neighbors, and the people we meet every day, and not neseserily the ones we interact with , but also we are judge by observation. 

Do you think that Jesus can not judge you today and everyday and all the time? 

If he can't and has to wait for some day in the future, when we are not on Earth anymore, then this is excellent, we have nothing to be afraid of him in this life, if he has to wait to judge for what we do now, if his judgement is on hold, then his disipline is on hold as well. Then his love is on hold. 

And how about if the disipline that builds up and comes from the Lord, in our understanding we attribute it to the work of the devil and we rebuke what we perceived the work of the enemy, but it actually the Lord. !!!

 

[Your closest friendnt]

On 6/11/2017 at 10:13 PM, giggling appy said:

Matthew 23 : 3 thru 7

But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach. They tie up heavy, cumbersome loads and put them on other people’s shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them. “Everything they do is done for people to see: They make their phylacteries wide and the tassels on their garments long; they love the place of honor at banquets and the most important seats in the synagogues; they love to be greeted with respect in the marketplaces and to be called ‘Rabbi’ by others.

The above is the meaning of hypocrisy and the very definition of it. In paraphrase, its the “do as I say, not as I do” and “practice what you preach” And Jesus condemned their attitude of pride and self righteousness. The religious leaders had created so many man made rituals that it was impossible to follow. The religious leaders expected others to follow, but yet the religious leaders themselves did not think they too needed to follow all the laws and rituals they demanded others to follow. None of this applies to old testament events that you mentioned. 

giggling appy 

In this examples, JESUS is confronting organized religious systems, and their leadership. 

And he is making an examination of how far they have gone, or how they add one thing upon the other, making it some kind of competition, like they are not real people anymore, kind of chocking and taking the peoples breath away, kind of removing the oxyzen from the air they breath. 

JESUS kept saying "hipocrites""Pharisees, but at the same time JESUS shows a different kind of himself when he meets the Pharisee as a person, and not as an organization. 

He never called Nicodemus an hypocrite, even though Nicodemus was part of the order of the Pharisees . 

When JESUS went to the Pharisee house as an invitee, he did not call him any names. 

JESUS never called any one hypocrite, of all the people he ever met, as individuals, no matter what the situation. 

If anyone today wants to make a similar case as an example using to what Jesus say about the order of the Pharisees, I don't think so it is possible. 

First of all at the time JESUS say those things, he had something in his mind, a propose, that can not be a reason to have that today. 

JESUS he did not try to win the Pharisees over at that time, before he shed the blood of the New Covenant, to the contrary JESUS wanted to drive the Pharisees mad with hate against him, he wanted them to hate him, and he acoblish that not only by saying things about them, and very often they were part of some of the parables, but with an intent to show not pleasing God, some how reproved by God. 

JESUS did many profound miracles on the Sabbath day unheard of, and in a very provocative way, like challenging the Lord God of the Sabbath, an open defience of the Holy day, like Jesus was poluting the Holy day. 

JESUS wanted the leaders to put him to death, to hate him, inspite of wanting to love him. 

 

 

[OneLight]

On 6/11/2017 at 11:35 AM, Your closest friendnt said:

It has a lot to do with the context. 

How does context change the fact that a lie is a lie?  You stated that there are different kinds of honesty.  Can you clarify this more as I know only one form of honesty and that is not to tell a lie.  What is confusing to me is that what you said makes me think you see being a hypocrite is a good thing and acceptable.  What context shows this?  The world lives in hypocrisy while we are called to always represent the truth.

 

[Your closest friendnt]

8 hours ago, OneLight said:

How does context change the fact that a lie is a lie?  You stated that there are different kinds of honesty.  Can you clarify this more as I know only one form of honesty and that is not to tell a lie.  What is confusing to me is that what you said makes me think you see being a hypocrite is a good thing and acceptable.  What context shows this?  The world lives in hypocrisy while we are called to always represent the truth.

 

There are different kinds of lies, and there are lies that saved lives, and bless.

And there are lies for different causes. 

During war occupation, or during the German occupation, how many people lived to tell their stories, that the only reason they are alive is because some people dare to lie. 

When the unlawfuls, burst into the house seeking to know the hiding place of the Father, everyone lied to save the life of the Father, even the women, to their own detriment, and abuse. 

The adoptive parents of a new born infant, truth to the cause to "the best interest of the child", they tell the child that they are his parents. 

Edited June 13, 2017 by Your closest friendnt

[OneLight]

7 hours ago, Your closest friendnt said:

There are different kinds of lies, and there are lies that saved lives, and bless.

And there are lies for different causes. 

During war occupation, or during the German occupation, how many people lived to tell their stories, that the only reason they are alive is because some people dare to lie. 

When the unlawfuls, burst into the house seeking to know the hiding place of the Father, everyone lied to save the life of the Father, even the women, to their own detriment, and abuse. 

The adoptive parents of a new born infant, truth to the cause to "the best interest of the child", they tell the child that they are his parents. 

So you see being a liar can be a good thing?  Why does scripture tell us something completely different?

Revelation 21:8

But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.

You are displaying the way of the world in your post, not the way of God.

[Your closest friendnt]

On 6/13/2017 at 10:58 PM, OneLight said:

So you see being a liar can be a good thing?  Why does scripture tell us something completely different?

Revelation 21:8

But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.

You are displaying the way of the world in your post, not the way of God.

There two co-workers, and after twelve years one of them finds out that the other one is elegaly in the country.

What should the nomimal worker do, when he is asked by the authorities if he knows any elegal at his working place. 

You mention two ways in your post. The way of "the world", and the way of "God". 

If you could give us the way of either one, or just one and not the other.