Matthew 24: Rapture, Second Coming or Both?

[rollinTHUNDER]

8 minutes ago, eileenhat said:

Continuing on differences between various Chapters of Revelations. ie. Chap. 14 vs Chap. 16

Rev. 16 covers a wide span of time.

In my mind it is covering the time from WW1, to present day.

The difference between Rev. 14 and 16 is one, the span of time covered.

Rev. 14 covers the time the saints are placed under God's protection, in his throne room until the first resurrected and first judgement.  Perhaps a 7 year or 'week' episode beginning at the time of Jacob's trouble (ie. an abomination of desolation occurs in God's temple).

Why different views of overlapping events?

There are too many facets to this story to tell it from start to finish linearly.

Paul received visions in doses, so there is a time lapse between stories and or chapters (he grows in faith with each telling).

 

 

That's off topic.  Why not start another thread? 

Or maybe I should just delete this one.  Polluted muddy waters.......... 

[iamlamad]

2 hours ago, inchrist said:

The Thessalonians received reports which they believed were from Paul saying something different - namely, that the day of the Lord had already arrived. 

So Paul sent them a letter correcting this misunderstanding , and the reports they received where not from him, now they know.

Missed it again! Your batting average is very poor. 

6  And now ye know that which restrains, that he should be revealed in his own time.

Paul is specifically speaking of them knowing who the restrainer is. HOW would they know? They will know because they see in verse 3b that the man of sin IS REVEALED. All they need to do is see what 3a speaks of that could be construed as being "taken out of the way," or removed from the midst. There is only one thing in 3a that qualifies and that is the significant apostasia.  They know that whatever Paul meant by apostasia has to be the restrainer taken out of the way.

2 hours ago, inchrist said:

Quote

This is a theory that cannot be proven and that untold millions disagree with.

 

Really...so Paul and the other apostles never spoke about Jesus and what he had to say to them at all?

Paul got his gospel from what Jesus said to him, by way of revelation. He did not go up to Jerusalem and confer with those who were "somewhat" in Jerusalem. He went out into the desert. There is no record that Paul ever listened to Jesus. Perhaps he did, perhaps he did not. What we do know is that Paul got his revelation straight from God himself. 

My guess is, Paul knew Daniel so well he could probably quote it from memory.  By the way, we have very little idea of what He taught them in person. We can only guess from his many letters. He probably taught the same thing everywhere he went.

3 hours ago, inchrist said:

Because prophecy of the antichrist must come first.

I think you need to go back and study and see what must come first. There is only one thing that comes first in this passage, and prophecy is not it. 
 

 

3 hours ago, inchrist said:

Fundamental rule of Greek grammar states that a pronoun, adjective, or substantival phrase must agree in gender and number with its preceding reference. For Paul to use the neuter participle (which is a substantival phrase) to designate the Spirit (since spirit is neuter) would require him to have already referred to the Spirit. 

I agree. The rules of English are that a pronoun must agree in gender and number. In one verse Paul uses the neutral gender, but in the next, the masculine gender. Perhaps Paul did not attend the same Greek classes that you attended. I don't think it is the church per se that Paul is referring to.  My guess is, Paul did not want to openly declare his thoughts in writing. Perhaps he did not want the Roman's to know what he was talking about. Perhaps he thought they might imagine he was thinking of the Roman Empire. If so, I guess he did a very good job, for many even today do not know. Since Paul used both a neutral gender AND a masculine gender, he was referring to something double, which would fit the Holy Spirit working through the church.

Not even the commentators agree, so it is very unlikely we will agree.

3 hours ago, inchrist said:

The actual text is out of the midst he shall be.

How about "out of the midst he shall BECOME. Strongs used "become" and "to be made." Actually, the King James translators did quite well on this one.  Your understanding of this passage seems very poor indeed.

[wingnut-]

5 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Again I say, you cannot put words in Paul's mouth.

 

Amazing you find the post in which I posted from Mark and Revelation, written by Mark and John, and continue to go on about Paul.  Amazing, that's all I can say.  Not one bit of the scripture addressed, just more deflection from you.  No need to respond unless you want to discuss the actual topic, which is the parable.

[wingnut-]

1 hour ago, rollinTHUNDER said:

That's off topic.  Why not start another thread? 

Or maybe I should just delete this one.  Polluted muddy waters.......... 

 

Sorry rollin, I keep trying to address the parable, but to no avail.  I hope you don't delete the thread though, maybe just have it locked.

[firestormx]

On 6/25/2017 at 9:55 PM, rollinTHUNDER said:

Matthew 24:29-30 – “Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: ³⁰ And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.”
.
Most scholars believe that the passage above is about the second coming; even though, some of them believe it is both, the rapture and the second coming.  As I said earlier, I wholeheartedly disagree with both positions.  It matters not that it occurs immediately after the great tribulation, because the rapture and second coming both will occur after the tribulation, though, not on the same day as some scholars believe, and the rapture will not occur seven years before the second coming, as others believe.  The end of the great tribulation is not the end of the age, as several events need to happen from that point, including the fulfillment of the fall feasts, the rapture, the hour of trial, Israel will be saved, the second coming and God’s wrath.  Daniel 12:11-12 says there will be an additional 45 days remaining after the great tribulation ends:
 

I have never considered the phases of the moon in regards to these verses. I have always believed the event in Matt 24 was the same as the 6th seal and Joel 2:31. What about the 4th trumpet? It is also very similar to the event described in Matt 24:29. Are you saying that all of these events are different? That the almost same event will happen 4 times? That it will happen once as it says In Joel 2:31, once in Matthew 24:29, once for the 6th seal and then again with the 4th trumpet? If you could explain where Joel 2:31 which clearly states will happen before the day of the lord, and Matt 24:29 which happens before the sign of Christ appears and how they fit into revelation , then I would be grateful. If you covered this and I missed it then I apologize please point me to the correct post and I will reread it. For clarity on my position I believe the 6th seal and the 4th trumpet are 2 different events With the event in Joel, Matthew and the 6th seal all describing the same event as seen by 3 different people. I could be wrong, as I said, the phases of the moon has never once occurred to me. 

[rollinTHUNDER]

50 minutes ago, firestormx said:

I have never considered the phases of the moon in regards to these verses. I have always believed the event in Matt 24 was the same as the 6th seal and Joel 2:31. What about the 4th trumpet? It is also very similar to the event described in Matt 24:29. Are you saying that all of these events are different? That the almost same event will happen 4 times? That it will happen once as it says In Joel 2:31, once in Matthew 24:29, once for the 6th seal and then again with the 4th trumpet? If you could explain where Joel 2:31 which clearly states will happen before the day of the lord, and Matt 24:29 which happens before the sign of Christ appears and how they fit into revelation , then I would be grateful. If you covered this and I missed it then I apologize please point me to the correct post and I will reread it. For clarity on my position I believe the 6th seal and the 4th trumpet are 2 different events With the event in Joel, Matthew and the 6th seal all describing the same event as seen by 3 different people. I could be wrong, as I said, the phases of the moon has never once occurred to me. 

Hey firestormx,

I think that's a very common assumption.  We can easily miss it if we're just skimming through it, but a closer observation reveals a lot. 

I'd have to say that the blood moons in Joel 2 and the 6th seal are describing the very same moon on the same night.  It would come two weeks after the new moon seen in Matt. 24.  We know Matt. 24 is a new moon, and not just being blocked by cloudy skies because of the stars.  The sky will be clear enough to see the stars falling (meteor showers).  This fits the feast of Trumpets exactly, as this is what it will look like just before the sign of the Son of man appears (rapture), which is the very next verse.  I discussed both moon phases in another thread.  If you're interested here's the link, and then just scroll down to the 6th seal.  I recommend reading from the 3rd seal, though, because that's when it starts to get very interesting.  

As for the 4th Trumpet, your guess would be as good as mine as far when it occurs and what causes a third of the sun, moon and stars to be darkened for a third of the day and night.  But I'm sure God will most definitely have our undivided attention when that time comes.  I really haven't done an in-depth study on the trumpets yet.  But some day soon, hopefully, Lord willing.

Cheers

[rollinTHUNDER]

2 hours ago, wingnut- said:

 

Sorry rollin, I keep trying to address the parable, but to no avail.  I hope you don't delete the thread though, maybe just have it locked.

No problem, wingnut.  I was just venting a little.    I won't delete it.

Cheers

[fixerupper]

21 hours ago, iamlamad said:

It is sure not a falling away or the opposite of a falling away that is restraining. I believe it is the Holy Spirit working through the Believers. When suddenly all the believers are caught up, He will have no one to work through - at least for a while.

I'm not sure what the detension is, and I'm not convinced the KJV has it translated well.  It is a difficult verse no doubt.  There's no reason to assume this 'falling away' or what's said about the man of sin and his followers has nothing to do with believers, but all to do with the followers of the beast.

For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

Fot the hidden condition of lawlessness is already at work,...

NIV For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way. 

The NIV has is better and closer to being correct.  The one who hold's it back...will....until.....HE is taken out of the way.

OPTIONS.  A military force.  A ruler or king like Abu bakr al-baghdadi.  An Angelic being like Michael.  And the least most likely options, the general hindrance, i.e. Roman Empire and the holy spirit.

What detains him? I'm not sure.  I'll take a guess and say baghdadi!  One could make a pretty good argument the grammar suggest that what detains him is AN APOSTASY.  

Just like most things prophetic, I do think Christians misunderstand 'apostasy.'  Abu is a good guess though.

To keep in line with the OP.  2 Thes. 2 is both the rapture and second coming.  The harvest takes place and then the big battle right afterwards.

Edited July 2, 2017 by fixerupper

[firestormx]

35 minutes ago, rollinTHUNDER said:

Hey firestormx,

I think that's a very common assumption.  We can easily miss it if we're just skimming through it, but a closer observation reveals a lot. 

I'd have to say that the blood moons in Joel 2 and the 6th seal are describing the very same moon on the same night.  It would come two weeks after the new moon seen in Matt. 24.  We know Matt. 24 is a new moon, and not just being blocked by cloudy skies because of the stars.  The sky will be clear enough to see the stars falling (meteor showers).  This fits the feast of Trumpets exactly, as this is what it will look like just before the sign of the Son of man appears (rapture), which is the very next verse.  I discussed both moon phases in another thread.  If you're interested here's the link, and then just scroll down to the 6th seal.  I recommend reading from the 3rd seal, though, because that's when it starts to get very interesting.  

Cheers

2

I read the info at the link. You have given me a lot to think about. Thanks for taking the time to explain a little further. To tell you where I am coming from, I have always believed the event in Matthew 24:29 is the talking about the rapture and the event in Matthew 25 is talking about the second coming. In Matthew 24 only the elect is gathered to Jesus whereas in Matthew 25 all nations are gathered to Jesus. In Matthew 24 Jesus is still the Son of man but in the Matthew 25 event, Jesus is the King. I believe those 2 things make a big difference.

Thanks for the chat, God Bless

Firestormx

Joseph

Edited July 2, 2017 by firestormx

[fixerupper]

Quote

I have never considered the phases of the moon in regards to these verses. I have always believed the event in Matt 24 was the same as the 6th seal and Joel 2:31.

That's correct the phases of the moon or any Jewish traditions.
The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.

The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining:

The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining.

And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

There are two reasons why the moon appears red even today.  When it first rises or sets the curvature of the earth causes our viewing of it to be through a much longer distance through the particles of the earth's spheres.  The more dense the atmosphere the more the particles scatter away the blue/green light and lets the red light go straight through. When it's high in the sky we view it through much less of a distance through those spheres and it doesn't appear red. It's the particles in those spheres both natural and manmade that cause its appearance to be red.  In the beginning of tribulation the moon will appear red all the time and as tribulation progresses you won't be able to see it hardly at all.

The moon and stars as well will then fade more as the tribulation progresses. Toward the end of tribulation there will be so much stuff emitted into the atmosphere that we won't see the stars at all in places or dim glow from the moon above those spheres with pollution.

The same is true about the sun.  In Revelation 6 the sun became black as sackcloth of hair.  In Mathew 24:29 the sun is darkened.  Sackcloth is a coarse cloth that you can see through a bit.  That's different than a sun that is darkened or can't see at all like on a cloudy day.  One is the beginning of tribulation, the other the end.