How do the believers in Christ differ from Israel?

[Swords99]

17 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

Messianic Jews will be Raptured, most Jews will not be Raptured because they have been blinded until the "Time of the Gentiles be come in" (Church Age is over/Raptured). So most will reign with Christ a 1000 years, but you do understand that is temporal right? After the 1000 years this Earth goes away and all, Jews and Gentiles WILL LIVE IN HEAVEN.

I can't tell you how many times I have heard a pastor or Bible teacher say there's no such things as Messianic Judaism. Either one is a Jew or a Christian. To mix in law keeping nullifies God's grace.

The author of the book of Hebrews spends much time trying to convince these Hebrew believers in Christ who were still keeeping the law, to get off the fence and go all the way with Christ and leave Judaism behind.

Have you ever spoken to a Jewish person? They are not looking for heaven, but for their Messiah to come to earth  and rule as their king in Jerusalem.

[Revelation Man]

7 hours ago, Swords99 said:

I can't tell you how many times I have heard a pastor or Bible teacher say there's no such things as Messianic Judaism. Either one is a Jew or a Christian. To mix in law keeping nullifies God's grace.

 

Well you didn't hear me say that. Maybe you need to pay attention better. When Israel REPENTS after the Rapture they still must accept the Messiah Jesus. So they must come back to God via the BLOOD.....So you heard wrong.

Edited July 11, 2017 by Revelation Man

[Swords99]

31 minutes ago, Revelation Man said:

Well you didn't hear me say that maybe. Maybe you need to pay attention better. When Israel REPENTS after the Rapture they still must accept the Messiah Jesus. So they must com back to God via the BLOOD.....So you heard wrong.

Let's play nice. You said messianic Jews will be raptured. Can you show us chapter and verse of where the bible says this?

[OneLight]

42 minutes ago, Swords99 said:

Let's play nice. You said messianic Jews will be raptured. Can you show us chapter and verse of where the bible says this?

Come now, the Apostles themselves were messianic Jews.  All that means is that they believe that Jesus is the Messiah and their nationality is Jewish.  I could be called a Messianic Frenchman/Englishman/ Native American.  It means the same thing to me as being a Christian.  I believe Jesus is my savior.  Just because ones nationality is assigned to their theology does not mean they are not His.  One good person to ask is George, the owner, as he is a Messianic Jew himself.

What do you think a Messianic Jew believes?

[Revelation Man]

1 hour ago, OneLight said:

Come now, the Apostles themselves were messianic Jews.  All that means is that they believe that Jesus is the Messiah and their nationality is Jewish.  I could be called a Messianic Frenchman/Englishman/ Native American.  It means the same thing to me as being a Christian.  I believe Jesus is my savior.  Just because ones nationality is assigned to their theology does not mean they are not His.  One good person to ask is George, the owner, as he is a Messianic Jew himself.

What do you think a Messianic Jew believes?

Exactly, that's why Paul stated they were blinded IN PART, because there are Messianic Jews. Eventually we will all be in Heaven if we apply the blood of Jesus.

[Retrobyter]

On 7/10/2017 at 7:29 AM, Revelation Man said:

There will be Jews that go to hell just like there will be Gentiles that go to hell, thus All Jews will not go to Heaven. This is proved by the parable of the Great gulf, where Jesus told the man he could not take a message to a person in hell, also Jesus told the Pharisees they were of their father SATAN. Not everyone will be Resurrected in the First Resurrection, many/maybe most, will be resurrected a the Second Resurrection. So many Gentiles and Jews are going to hell, now as to what you believe I can not attest to that, I just know the facts. Without the Blood of Jesus covering your sins a person, Jew or Gentile, is going to hell. I don't make blunders as per the scripture. I listen to the Holy Spirit.

Shalom, Revelation Man.

Sorry, but you dichotomous thinking betrays you. For you, it's either "Heaven" or "hell." There's no middle ground except the "Great gulf."

First of all, "hell" is the wrong word. It's called the "Lake of Fire" or more exactly the "Lake of Fire and Brimstone" which means the "Lake of Fire and Sulfur," or the "Lake of Burning Sulfur." (Rev. 19:20; 20:10, 14, and 15.)

The biblical words "translated" as "hell," are several, and they have different meanings than you are using. In Hebrew, the word "translated" as "hell" is sh'owl (often written, "sheol"):

OT:7585 she'owl (sheh-ole'); or sheol (sheh-ole'); from OT:7592; Hades or the world of the dead (as if a subterranean retreat), including its accessories and inmates:
KJV - grave, hell, pit.

OT:7592 shaa'al (shaw-al'); or shaa'eel (shaw-ale'); a primitive root; to inquire; by implication, to request; by extension, to demand:
KJV - ask (counsel, on), beg, borrow, lay to charge, consult, demand, desire,  earnestly, enquire,  greet, obtain leave, lend, pray, request, require,  salute,  straitly,  surely, wish.

(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

There are THREE words that were translated "hell" in the NT: They are the Greek words, haidees (often written "Hades"), ge-ena (often written "gehenna"), and tartaro-oo (the verb form of "tartarus"):

NT:86 haidees (hah'-dace); from NT:1 (as negative particle) and NT:1492; properly, unseen, i.e. "Hades" or the place (state) of departed souls:
KJV - grave, hell.

NT:1 a (al'-fah); of Hebrew origin; the first letter of the alphabet; figuratively, only (from its use as a numeral) the first:
KJV - Alpha. Often used (usually an, before a vowel) also in composition (as a contraction from NT:427) in the sense of privation; so, in many words, beginning with this letter; occasionally in the sense of union (as a contraction of NT:260).

NT:1492 eidoo (i'-do); a primary verb; used only in certain past tenses, the others being borrowed from the equivalent NT:3700 and NT:3708; properly, to see (literally or figuratively); by implication (in the perf. only) to know:
KJV - be aware, behold,  can (+not tell), consider, (have) know (-ledge), look (on), perceive, see, be sure, tell, understand, wish, wot. Compare NT:3700.

NT:1067 ge-ena (gheh'-en-nah); of Hebrew origin [OT:1516 and OT:2011]; valley of (the son of) Hinnom; ge-henna (or Ge-Hinnom), a valley of Jerusalem, used (figuratively) as a name for the place (or state) of everlasting punishment:
KJV - hell.

OT:1516 gay' (gah'-ee); or (shortened) gay (gah'-ee); probably (by transmutation) from the same root as OT:1466 (abbreviated); a gorge (from its lofty sides; hence, narrow, but not a gully or winter-torrent):
KJV - valley.

OT:2011 Hinnom (hin-nome'); probably of foreign origin; Hinnom, apparently a Jebusite:
KJV - Hinnom.

NT:5020 tartaro-oo (tar-tar-o'-o); from Tartaros (the deepest abyss of Hades); to incarcerate in eternal torment:
KJV - cast down to hell.

(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

The Hebrew word, sh'owl, means "ask," "inquire," "request," or "demand." It's asking the question, "Where did they go?" or "What's happened to them?" And, Strong's Hebrew Dictionary says that it is the word that means "Hades, or the world of the dead." This is an interesting thought, because the Greek word, haidees (Hades), means "the unseen" or "the unknown."

The Greek word, ge-ena, which is a transliteration of the Hebrew phrase, gay'-Hinnom, means the Valley of Hinnom (or gay'-ben-Hinnom, the Valley of the Son of Hinnom), a real valley just outside of Jerusalem on the south side of the Old City. You can go there if you take a tour of Jerusalem today!

The ATS Bible Dictionary says,

Quote

Hinnom

That is, the valley of Hinnom, or of the son of Hinnom, a narrow valley just south of Jerusalem, running up westward from the valley of the Cedron, and passing into the valley of the Cedron, and passing into the valley of Gihon, which follows the base of mount Zion north, up to the Joppa gate. It was well watered, and in ancient times most verdant and delightfully shaded with trees. The boundary line Judah and Benjamin passed through it, Joshua 15:8; 18:6; Nehemiah 11:30. In its lowest part, towards the southeast, and near the king's gardens and Siloam, the idolatrous Israelties made their children pass through the fire to Moloch, 1 Kings 11:7 2 Kings 16:3 Jeremiah 32:35. See MOLOCH. 

The place of these abominable sacrifices is also called Tophet, Isaiah 30:33 Jeremiah 7:31. According to some, this name is derived from the Hebrew toph, drum, because drums are supposed to have been used to drown the cries of the victims. But this opinion rests only on conjecture. King Josiah defiled the place, 2 Kings 23:10, probably by making it a depository of filth. It has been a common opinion that the later Jews, in imitation of Josiah, threw into this place all manner of filth, as well as the carcasses of animals and the dead bodies of malefactors; and that with reference to either the baleful idolatrous fires in the worship of Moloch, or to the fires afterwards maintained there to consume the mass of impurities that might otherwise have occasioned a pestilence, came the figurative use of the fires of Gehenna, that is, valley of Hinnom, to denote the eternal fire in which wicked men and fallen spirits shall be punished. This supposition, however, rests upon uncertain grounds.

So, this is a REAL place that denotes "the eternal fire in which wicked men and fallen spirits shall be punished."

The thing that is frequently missing in these definitions and explanations is that the "malefactors" in the days of the kings of Israel would have been sentenced to death by the highest court of the Land, the king himself! The king of Israel was "the supreme court judge" of Israel! That was one of his JOBS!

The thing that really gets to me is this nonsense that Yeshua` will be in "Heaven" during the Millennium! He is the ONE ANOINTED TO BE KING (the MESSIAH) promised TO ISRAEL! Why would He be MISSING from HIS OWN KINGDOM?! That's just LUDICROUS!

Anyway, the bottom line is this: Yeshua` the Messiah now, the Melekh (King) during the Millennium (and beyond), will be performing the duties of the King of Israel when He returns!

Now, getting back to the three words for "hell," the Greek word "ge-ena" can be found in these 12 verses:

Matthew 5:22, 29, 30; 10:28; 18:9; 23:15, 33; Mark 9:43, 45, 47; Luke 12:5 and James 3:6. These are verses that use the word "hell" for the judgment and sentencing of haMelekh Yeshua`, that is, the King Jesus, when He is reigning in Yerushalayim (Jerusalem), AS PROMISED!

The Greek word "haidees" can be found in these 11 verses:

Matthew 11:23; 16:18; Luke 10:15; 16:23; Acts 2:27, 31; 1 Corinthians 15:55; Revelation 1:18; 6:8; 20:13, 14. These are the verses that use the word "hell" as the "unseen" or the "unknown." These verses usually talk about the "grave." Consider Acts 2 where Peter said the following:

Acts 2:22-36
22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:
23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.
25 For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved:
26 Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope:
27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul (my air-breather) in hell (the grave), neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption (decay).
28 Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance.
29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
30 Therefore (David) being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him (David), that of (from) the fruit of his (David's) loins, according to the flesh, he (God) would raise up Christ (the Messiah) to sit on his (David's) throne;
31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ (the Messiah), that his soul (air-breather) was not left in hell (the grave), neither his flesh did see corruption (decay).
32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
34 For David is not ascended into the heavens (into the skies): but he saith himself, The Lord (YHWH) said unto my Lord (my Master; my Sire), Sit thou on my right hand,
35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool.
36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus (Yeshua`), whom ye have crucified, both Lord (Master; Sire) and Christ (Messiah).
KJV

The last Greek word, tartaro-oo, is found just once in 2 Peter 2:4 as "tartaroosos," which I won't get into right now. Suffice it to say that "angels" mean "messengers" and who are the human "messengers" of God? The PROPHETS are! Count the number of times that "prophets" and "prophecy" are used in 2 Peter and consider that "false prophets" were mentioned soon before this verse.

***

On the opposite side of the coin, you also have the wrong idea of what "heaven" means. People don't "go to heaven" when they die. They go "through the heavens" when the Resurrection occurs and the Lord Yeshua` returns.

David was said above NOT to have "ascended into the heavens." And, yet, Peter was saying this to the "men of Israel" AFTER the Lord's Resurrection and AFTER the Lord had ascended to the sky. If David had been led to "heaven" as part of those who rose to "heaven" from "paradise" when Yeshua` "led captivity captive" (and why would David not have been included), then why did Peter say this?

More to come...

[Revelation Man]

3 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, Revelation Man.

Sorry, but you dichotomous thinking betrays you. For you, it's either "Heaven" or "hell." There's no middle ground except the "Great gulf."

First of all, "hell" is the wrong word. It's called the "Lake of Fire" or more exactly the "Lake of Fire and Brimstone" which means the "Lake of Fire and Sulfur," or the "Lake of Burning Sulfur." (Rev. 19:20; 20:10, 14, and 15.)

The biblical words "translated" as "hell," are several, and they have different meanings than you are using. In Hebrew, the word "translated" as "hell" is sh'owl (often written, "sheol"):

So you spent 30 minutes saying something I already know.  I still call it hell, my meaning of hell is hell, not HADES which is the Grave. I am speaking of hell where those are sent for eternity, just like everyone else thinks of it. I don't quibble over words, I find people who do that are trying to confuse because they have lost the debate.

People stay in Hades (Grave) when they die and sleep. That's why the graves are opened at the Rapture. 

 

 

[Swords99]

13 hours ago, OneLight said:

Come now, the Apostles themselves were messianic Jews.  All that means is that they believe that Jesus is the Messiah and their nationality is Jewish.  I could be called a Messianic Frenchman/Englishman/ Native American.  It means the same thing to me as being a Christian.  I believe Jesus is my savior.  Just because ones nationality is assigned to their theology does not mean they are not His.  One good person to ask is George, the owner, as he is a Messianic Jew himself.

What do you think a Messianic Jew believes?

 

Theology  varies widely among Messianic Jews, but some believe that the laws of the Torah, such as observing Shabbat, holidays, and circumcision must be obeyed today.

If a Messianic Jew believes in Christ alone for salvation and not law keeping, great. However, we can't say this is true of all of them.

.

 

[OneLight]

25 minutes ago, Swords99 said:

Theology  varies widely among Messianic Jews, but some believe that the laws of the Torah, such as observing Shabbat, holidays, and circumcision must be obeyed today.

If a Messianic Jew believes in Christ alone for salvation and not law keeping, great. However, we can't say this is true of all of them.

One cannot believe in salvation through Christ and salvation through obedience of the law.  The two don't mix.  If they believe on salvation through Christ, they are on the right path, just like some Christians today who follow some of the law.  Does their incorrect theology mean they are not saved through Christ?  What they need is correction, not condemnation.

[Retrobyter]

On 7/12/2017 at 1:46 AM, Revelation Man said:

So you spent 30 minutes saying something I already know.  I still call it hell, my meaning of hell is hell, not HADES which is the Grave. I am speaking of hell where those are sent for eternity, just like everyone else thinks of it. I don't quibble over words, I find people who do that are trying to confuse because they have lost the debate.

People stay in Hades (Grave) when they die and sleep. That's why the graves are opened at the Rapture. 

Shalom, Revelation Man.

LOL! I'm just getting started! Your "meaning of hell is hell?" Do you KNOW, then, that Matthew 11:23, Matthew 16:18, Luke 10:15, Luke 16:23, Acts 2:27, Acts 2:31, 1 Corinthians 15:55, Revelation 1:18, Revelation 6:8, Revelation 20:13, and Revelation 20:14 are NOT talking about "hell" as the "Lake of Fire and Sulfur," even thought they use the word "hell?" These are instances where the Greek word is "haidees" ("hades") is found, translated as "hell."

Okay, now for the other side of the coin:

Do you truly know what "heaven" means? Again, there are a number of Greek words that were translated as "heaven," "heavens," and "heavenly." There are also another word in Hebrew and a PHRASE in Hebrew. You should know what these differences are and when and where each word is used. You also need to know HOW a word is used in its context.

Let's start with the Hebrew: The Hebrew word is "shaamaayim." In Hebrew, "-aayim" and "-iym" are both masculine plural endings; however, "-aayim" is a DUAL word, that it to say, it describes things that come in pairs, particularly body parts, like eyes, ears, hands, feet, etc. This word, "shaamaayim," is also a dual word.

I've also tried to tell people that Jewish literature often begins with a synopsis of what is to follow; that is, it begins with a summary of the details to follow, like in an outline. That often doesn't go over very well, because they still THINK like a Westerner! However, Hebrew is an ORIENTAL language. That's why the area from which it originated is called the "Middle EAST!"

To use Western Hemisphere logic to say the same thing, think of it this way: The things God named in the Creation Account were names that God gave to the things He had JUST CREATED!

Therefore, by STARTING with the verses Genesis 1:8 and Genesis 1:10, we see WHAT He created and then the NAME He assigned to it:

Genesis 1:6-8
6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.
8 And God called the firmament Heaven (shaamaayim). And the evening and the morning were the second day.
KJV

The word "Heaven" in verse 8 is the Hebrew word "shaamaayim." Later, we are given a limiting factor of this word:

Genesis 1:20-23
20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven (again, "shaamaayim").
21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
22 And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth.
23 And the evening and the morning were the fifth day.
KJV

Therefore, this word "heaven" is talking about the air, the atmosphere where the birds can fly. That's why the NIV translates these verses like this:

Genesis 1:6-8
6 And God said, "Let there be an expanse between the waters to separate water from water." 7 So God made the expanse and separated the water under the expanse from the water above it. And it was so. 8 God called the expanse "sky." And there was evening, and there was morning — the second day. 
NIV

Genesis 1:20-23
20 And God said, "Let the water teem with living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the expanse of the sky." 21 So God created the great creatures of the sea and every living and moving thing with which the water teems, according to their kinds, and every winged bird according to its kind. And God saw that it was good. 22 God blessed them and said, "Be fruitful and increase in number and fill the water in the seas, and let the birds increase on the earth." 23 And there was evening, and there was morning — the fifth day. 
NIV

Now, briefly consider the word "earth" which is the Hebrew word "erets," which starts with the Hebrew letter alef.

Genesis 1:9-10
9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.
10 And God called the dry land Earth (Hebrew: erets); and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.
KJV

Genesis 1:9-10
9 And God said, "Let the water under the sky be gathered to one place, and let dry ground appear." And it was so. 10 God called the dry ground "land," (Hebrew: erets) and the gathered waters he called "seas." And God saw that it was good. 
NIV

This was when God created the dry ground and this was when God named it "erets."

Now, in Hebrew, the definite article is a prefix that is attached to a word, "h-." The vowel sounds that follow this prefix depend on the word it is modifying. For "shaamaayim," the attachment of the definite article prefix is "ha-." Therefore with the definite article, the word becomes "hashaamaayim."

For "erets," the definite article prefix changes the sound of the next vowel as well. Thus, the word with the definite article becomes "haa'aarets," which now displays the apostrophe (') for the alef and the vowel sound is "aa" which sounds like an "aw," as in "saw."

These words, hashaamaayim" and "haa'aarets," are found in Genesis 1:1:

Genesis 1:1
1 In the beginning God created the Heaven (hashaamaayim) and the earth (haa'aarets).
KJV

Now, you can see why this is a summary of verses 8 and 10 below. 

More to come....