No infinite torture in hell's lake of fire

[enoob57]

On ‎7‎/‎2‎/‎2017 at 0:53 PM, PageofGrace said:

Hell was originally created as the end punishment for the great Satan and his fallen angel followers. Then God opened Hell for the souls of unsaved humans. 

How is God not responsible for doing that prior to sending his son to save us so we don't go there? I look forward to your answer. This is a very controversial subject as I understand it among Christians. 

What has been made everlasting by God cannot become not lasting or else God is limited in His Word being that of The Son

John 1:1 (KJV)

[1] In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

[2] The same was in the beginning with God.

[3] All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

[4] In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

And God says all men, no matter their claim, came to this reality but chose other

Romans 1:18 (KJV)

[18] For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

[19] Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

[20] For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

[21] Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

.... The everlasting are: God The Creator-> angels, mankind the created-> thus sayeth The Lord... The simple fact that sin is following the created instead of The Creator... idol worship! If one has The Creator as The Absolute in all things of authority then the things of God are your things and your things are the things of God fully listed and explained in His Word... thus if you are not hungry as in daily partaking of His Word then the created things become your authority and God has prepared a place for that... totally separated from those who hold The Creator as The Absolute Authority... and they are there, in the eternal separation, without excuse!

On ‎7‎/‎2‎/‎2017 at 10:54 PM, BobRyan said:

Everlasting destruction would also apply to destruction that lasts

 

- rather then "destroying that never quite destroys but is always trying to destroy"

eternal beings must require eternal destruction...

On ‎7‎/‎2‎/‎2017 at 10:57 PM, BobRyan said:

I finite hell that "destorys BOTH body AND soul" in fiery hell - and that this destruction is permanent - never reversed. Is perfectly in line with Matthew 10:28 and the fact that Rev 14:10-11 shows that the entire event happens "in the presence of the Lamb AND of the angels"

your idea of destroy is finite and earthy... but God Word says everlasting destruction

2 Thessalonians 1:7 (KJV)

[7] And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

[8] In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

[9] Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

[10] When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

it is humanism aligned with a self apparent authority to claim the need to justify God's ways by manipulation of His Word... but NO! God's Word 'IS' God's Word and nothing in the created can alter it one bit by power of lie or perversion of His Word...
 

On ‎7‎/‎2‎/‎2017 at 10:58 PM, BobRyan said:

It happens "in the presence" of the Lamb and the angels Rev 14:10 the entire event.

 

And that event "destroys BOTH body AND soul in fiery hell" Matt 10:28

again God has said an everlasting destruction... your refusal of the Thessalonian passage changes nothing In His Word to the rest of us!

On ‎7‎/‎2‎/‎2017 at 11:00 PM, BobRyan said:

The destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah is a perfect example of "eternal fire" no need to speculate.

 

Jude 1

⁶ And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day; ⁷ as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

 

 

the rightly dividing of God's Word is necessary to proper hermeneutic of what God's Word actually 'IS' saying! Here case in point: Sodom and Gomorrah were here in this finite place of the first created essence... eventually all the first creation shall suffer cessation of exist

2 Peter 3:10 (KJV)

[10] But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

[11] Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,

[12] Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

[13] Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

the first creation because of sin will cease to exist in all forms of thought and idea

1 Corinthians 2:9 (KJV)

[9] But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

when one learns to let go of their own authority and the seeming authority of this place of idols and let's God's Word guide them into all truth they shall be set free of the lies that prevail here! Free indeed to reckon the 'IS' of all things and in this freedom Jesus The Christ becomes the everything in Life Everlasting....
Love, Steven

[Anonymous Aristotle]

 

1 Timothy 4:10 For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially of those who believe.

[BobRyan]

Matt 10:28 the wicked are going to be destroyed "BOTH body AND soul - in fiery hell"

 

Rev 14 --

The wicked " ¹⁰ ...will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. "

Lake of fire - fire and brimstone - the full event takes place not only IN THE PRESENCE of Christ - but also in the very presence of the Holy Angels. Every bit of it.

 

the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah via 'eternal fire' in Jude 1 - is such that it "destroys them by reducing them to ashes"

2 Peter 2:6and if He condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to destruction by reducing them to ashes, having made them an example to those who would live ungodly lives thereafter;

 

The destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah is a perfect example of "eternal fire" no need to speculate.

Jude 1

⁶ And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day; ⁷ as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

 

Even Satan himself - reduced to ashes.

Ezek 28:16 “By the abundance of your trade
You were internally filled with violence,
And you sinned;
Therefore I have cast you as profane
From the mountain of God.
And I have destroyed you, O covering cherub,
From the midst of the stones of fire.
¹⁷ “Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty;
You corrupted your wisdom by reason of your splendor.
I cast you to the ground;
I put you before kings,
That they may see you.
¹⁸ “By the multitude of your iniquities,
In the unrighteousness of your trade
You profaned your sanctuaries.
Therefore I have brought fire from the midst of you;
It has consumed you,
And I have turned you to ashes on the earth
In the eyes of all who see you.
¹⁹ “All who know you among the peoples
Are appalled at you;
You have become terrified
And you will cease to be forever.”’”

Edited July 6, 2017 by BobRyan

[brakelite]

In order to sustain the concept of eternal torment, all must also prove the concept that sinners live forever, completely denying Romans 6:23 which clearly declares that the wages of sin is death. Yet proponents for the eternal torment idea then resort to variations of the following..."ye shall not surely die"...now where have I heard that before?

The scriptures however teach...

a. That only God is immortal....1 Timothy 6:15,16

b. That immortality is a gift only for the redeemed....Timothy 1:9,10

 But so many don't believe the above, but claim immortality for everyone, even sinners? In doing this they even deny the very purpose of God when guarding the way to the tree of life in Genesis 3:

22 ¶  And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
23  Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
24  So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

I am not sure which came first. The belief in the natural immortality of the soul, or eternal torment, because they both must be sustained in order to accept either. Yet neither are Biblical!!

How do you explain this?

 

 

 

[Riccardo]

What happens to a person who has never been introduced to God in any shape or form, they have lived an honorable life much better than you or I, who stole a piece of food to feed their starving child.

Are they doomed for eternal torment for all eternity, by a so called loving God? 

This concept is insane, those that die don't really die. But suffer for all eternity by a loving God, the same God that says mercy is better than sacrifice. How contradictory if that be the case.

   

 

[Anonymous Aristotle]

On 7/8/2017 at 2:07 AM, Riccardo said:

What happens to a person who has never been introduced to God in any shape or form, they have lived an honorable life much better than you or I, who stole a piece of food to feed their starving child.

Are they doomed for eternal torment for all eternity, by a so called loving God? 

This concept is insane, those that die don't really die. But suffer for all eternity by a loving God, the same God that says mercy is better than sacrifice. How contradictory if that be the case.

   

 

If they've never heard of the gospel then no, they're not subject to Hell. They're innocents. 

Of course, one has to decide if Hell makes sense in the context of an omnibenevolent God that predetermined the world before he created it. 

No, I don't think it does. In fact, Hell was an invention of the Roman councils acting to manifest what is today's catholic church. Scare people to convert. Hell fire for all time. Show people what that means by burning them alive tied to a pyre. Instant converts. Convert or burn. 

When really, death without God is separation from God for all time. Which is in itself impossible because all things are God because God is all that is. 

That is why within the words of the Bible we are told to seek understanding and study to comprehend. And do not believe every spirit. 

 

[Riccardo]

I agree with you Anonymous, but was trying to point out the absurdity of a loving God punishing people for all eternity, which most of Christendom believe.

We are judged on the knowledge & light we have.

God bless

 

[brakelite]

5 hours ago, Anonymous Aristotle said:

When really, death without God is separation from God for all time. Which is in itself impossible because all things are God because God is all that is. 

I would be cautious in believing the above...sounds suspiciously like pantheism. As to the phrase, "death without God is separation from God" seems to me a contradiction. If one is separated from God...separated from the only source of life, death can be the only result. That is true death. Not eternal life at another address. And yes, that death lasts forever...it is the wages of sin...it is an eternal punishment.