What is free will really, what does it mean to have free will?

[enoob57]

26 minutes ago, Omegaman 3.0 said:

Truly, I do not have a clue what it is, that you just said. It almost sounds as it you are denying that sin even exists!

Sins place 'IS' where God places it... 'hell' eternally separated from God, Who, being the way, the truth , the life of eternity... now if you demand place for it put it where God has placed it! It is not place that I would want to be nor anyone else once there guaranteed.... Let me put it to you this way- what is anything that is not of God in your reasoning?

[hmbld]

5 minutes ago, enoob57 said:

Sins place 'IS' where God places it... 'hell' eternally separated from God, Who, being the way, the truth , the life of eternity... now if you demand place for it put it where God has placed it! It is not place that I would want to be nor anyone else once there guaranteed.... Let me put it to you this way- what is anything that is not of God in your reasoning?

Hey Steven, I'm missing something too.  Mega said God did not create sin, but allows sin, for the time being.  I don't see anyone disagreeing that God has created hell to place sin, as you say, eternally separated from God.  

[Omegaman 3.0]

On 7/15/2017 at 5:11 AM, hmbld said:

I do not see that God chose all, and lost them.  I see God's heart is for all to come to Him, yet many reject Him.  

and what I would say is different about that, than what scripture indicates, is that it is not many who reject Him, ALL reject Him. He chooses to save some of those from their rebellion.

Scripture describes the unregenerated  (people in their flesh) man or woman as blind, deaf, dead, a slave of sin, unable to understand, not capable of pleasing God. Not one of them does good nor seeks God.

How can the dead, live? How can one incapable of pleasing God, then choose Him? How will he see, when he is blind, or hear when he is deaf, or choose things, than he cannot even understand? How can a slave to sin, be a slave to God? No one can serve two masters! How will any come to God, if the Bible says, not even one does good or seeks God.

Either these things said of mankind are true, or they are not. If they are true, then any understanding of a verse that makes an exception to these facts, is being misunderstood, or misapplied. 

God may well wish that it is not as it is, and He may not take pleasure in the death of the wicked. 

Certainly we know, that not all come to Him.
We know that some remain lost for eternity.
We know that God is able to do what He wants to do, nothing shall be impossible for God.

If God wants all to come, and is able to make that happen, yet it does not happen, then does it not stand to reason, that He chooses for it not to happen? As Paul asked: "For who can resist His will?" It is a rhetorical question to which the obvious answer is "no one can resist God's will!" Nothing can happen, that God has not allowed.

If no one can, and yet people do, then it HAS to be God's will, that allows people to remain lost. All sin, and all deserve death, and that is their default state. They need a savior, and God provided one. Yet somehow, some remain lost, and do not have the Spirit of God nor enjoy His salvation. It requires a basic change. People have to choose God, but, they cannot do so, because they are deaf, blind, not able to understand, not able to please God. The are slaves to sin, and as slaves, do not have have the right master. They are slaves to sin, not to God. 

You should read John 3. Really read it, very carefully consider what Jesus says must happen in order for one to see the kingdom of God. It is the passage about being born again or born from above. The new birth, is how we escape the state of death that we are in, apart from God's grace. New birth brings us from death to new life.

The new birth, is not something we can do. Children are not born, by their own actions or will. Even adopted children, are adopted by the will of their parents. We are born again, when we are chosen to be God's kids. We cannot understand the things of God, without the Spirit, and we are not His, unless we have the Spirit. Do we command the Spirit to come into us, when we do not even understand nor desire these things?

I submit, that we are given the Spirit, by a sovereign act of God, and that is what being born again is about. We get the Spirit, and that Spirit bring life, opens eyes and ears, give us a desire to please God, and make us His child. We will not even invite God into our lives, until He has made these changes in us. We do not choose God, and then become born again, we are already born again, when we choose God. We will not choose Him, nor understand, until we have already been changed.

Those who have the will to choose God, do so, because He chose them first. We love God, because He first loved us. I am betting, that almost nothing that I have said, stuck you as unfamiliar, because you have already encountered these ideas, in the pages of scripture. Never-the-less, I'll toss some scripture in, that bears upon some of these ideas, if I run across any notes that I have taken on these topics, I may add them in.

 3And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, 4in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. 

 19“This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil.20“For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.

Now, just a question prompted from the above quoted paragraph . . . Who does not do evil? (all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God). From that, all do evil, and therefore hate the light, and does not come to the light.

Continuing . . .  Not just blind, but deaf:

  ‘GO TO THIS PEOPLE AND SAY,
            “YOU WILL KEEP ON HEARING, BUT WILL NOT UNDERSTAND;
            AND YOU WILL KEEP ON SEEING, BUT WILL NOT PERCEIVE;

      27FOR THE HEART OF THIS PEOPLE HAS BECOME DULL,
            AND WITH THEIR EARS THEY SCARCELY HEAR,
            AND THEY HAVE CLOSED THEIR EYES;
            OTHERWISE THEY MIGHT SEE WITH THEIR EYES,
            AND HEAR WITH THEIR EARS,
            AND UNDERSTAND WITH THEIR HEART AND RETURN,
            AND I WOULD HEAL THEM.”’

 6For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, 7because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, 8and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.  9However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him. 

Ponder some, and let me know what you think. If you really want to ponder and dig, check this out, read the verses and answer the questions from the verses, and see what you conclude!

[enoob57]

46 minutes ago, hmbld said:

Hey Steven, I'm missing something too.  Mega said God did not create sin, but allows sin, for the time being.  I don't see anyone disagreeing that God has created hell to place sin, as you say, eternally separated from God.  

You are incorrect in this your statement

On ‎7‎/‎13‎/‎2017 at 3:34 PM, enoob57 said:

The only issues I have with Calvinism is that those who logically follow the doctrine end up pairing God's sovereignty with existence of sin.... and that is blasphemous and probably will be considered the unpardonable sin as this mimics blaspheme of the Holy Spirit. I had people tell me God created sin for His purpose - whoa!!! God has made Himself clear on this point -sin- has absolutely nothing of God in it! It is solely the devils effort in rebellion to God's Sovereign nature....   

 

19 hours ago, Omegaman 3.0 said:

and the problem I have with a statement like that, is that it makes you the judge of what is logical. I consider myself to be logical, and I do not come to any such conclusion.

Of course, that even need qualification. God's sovereignty is related to the existence of sin, as long as one understands, that the fact that God sovereignly allowed (and still does allow) sin, it does not mean than He created or caused sin. God made the creation, He created the environment, and He created beings, who sin.

Without firearms, no one would be shot with a gun. That does not mean, that the maker of a firearm, is responsible for how other abuse them.

the two bolded underlined elements are the direction of topic and according to Oman because satan was able to do what he did God made him able to do so... when The Biblical reality is that God made him perfect in all his ways 'till iniquity was found in him' -satan fathered lie and that is perversion of created essence not created by God... therefore we are to give it no place as it has none with God and His Word... this clearly stated by God

1 John 1:5 (KJV)

[5] This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

 

[enoob57]

8 minutes ago, Omegaman 3.0 said:

God may well wish that it is not as it is, and He may not take pleasure in the death of the wicked. 

Certainly we know, that not all come to Him.
We know that some remain lost for eternity.
We know that God is able to do what He wants to do, nothing shall be impossible for God.

If God wants all to come, and is able to make that happen, yet it does not happen, then does it not stand to reason, that He chooses for it not to happen? As Paul asked: "For who can resist His will?" It is a rhetorical question to which the obvious answer is "no one can resist God's will!" Nothing can happen, that God has not allowed.

 

Based on this you have said - who has told God what to do?

[hmbld]

5 minutes ago, Omegaman 3.0 said:

and what I would say is different about that, than what scripture indicates, is that it is not many who reject Him, ALL reject Him. He chooses to save some of those from their rebellion.

Scripture describes the unregenerated  (people in their flesh) man or woman as blind, deaf, dead, a slave of sin, unable to understand, not capable of pleasing God. Not one of them does good nor seeks God.

How can the dead, live? How can one incapable of pleasing God, then choose Him? How will he see, when he is blind, or hear when he is deaf, or choose things, than he cannot even understand? How will any come to God, if the Bible says, not even one does good or seeks God.

Either these things said of mankind are true, or they are not. If they are true, then any understanding of a verse that makes an exception to these facts, is being misunderstood, or misapplied. 

God may well wish that it is not as it is, and He may not take pleasure in the death of the wicked. 

Certainly we know, that not all come to Him.
We know that some remain lost for eternity.
We know that God is able to do what He wants to do, nothing shall be impossible for God.

If God wants all to come, and is able to make that happen, yet it does not happen, then does it not stand to reason, that He chooses for it not to happen? As Paul asked: "For who can resist His will?" It is a rhetorical question to which the obvious answer is "no one can resist God's will!" Nothing can happen, that God has not allowed.

If no one can, and yet people do, then it HAS to be God's will, that allows people to remain lost. All sin, and all deserve death, and that is their default state. They need a savior, and God provided one. Yet somehow, some remain lost, and do not have the Spirit of God nor enjoy His salvation. It requires a basic change. People have to choose God, but, they cannot do so, because they are deaf, blind, not able to understand, not able to please God. The are slaves to sin, and as slaves, do not have have the right master. They are slaves to sin, not to God. 

I agree, scripture does state that no one seeks God, so therefore He must call us first, yet you are saying He does not call all, therefore it is His will for some to remain lost.  I still disagree with that logic, as scripture states He desires ALL to come to Him, so if there is no free will-(after being called, sought after, desired by God), then what could be the point of evangelizing?  If no one can resist God, and He has already chosen who will come to Him?  In our previous conversation, some time ago, I stated that when I first talked to God, and really heard Him, I felt like I could not choose to resist Him, as I wanted the light, and was unable to find it myself, I needed Him.  Yet, I must base truth on scripture, not what I think I experienced.  Scripture states God desires all to come to Him, yet He does not make us come to Him, as some are lost.  There must be some choice on our part, after God puts in our hearts the desire to come to Him.  

[Omegaman 3.0]

On 7/15/2017 at 7:50 AM, enoob57 said:

Sins place 'IS' where God places it... 'hell' eternally separated from God, Who, being the way, the truth , the life of eternity... now if you demand place for it put it where God has placed it! It is not place that I would want to be nor anyone else once there guaranteed.... Let me put it to you this way- what is anything that is not of God in your reasoning?

In the future, there will come a time, or really a state, called eternity. We do not live there, we are in the world while not of it. In the end, when the evil doers are cast into the lake of fire, then sin and good are separated. Everything where God is, and we will be, is good. Everything not good, including sin, is separated from God.

That, is a marvelous thing, but that is not descriptive of where we live, where the whole creation . . .  well, I will let Paul say it:

 18For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us. 19For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God.20For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope 21that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God.22For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now. 23And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body. 24For in hope we have been saved, but hope that is seen is not hope; for who hopes for what he already sees? 25But if we hope for what we do not see, with perseverance we wait eagerly for it.

So not, God has not yet, placed sin away, it is ever present in the creation - for now.

To you question: "what is anything that is not of God in your reasoning?"

To my reasoning, well, to the revelation of scripture, in God there is not darkness at all, everything He does is good, righteous, holy! So sin and evil, is not of God. I don't understand why you would think that I think otherwise. Satan rebelled against God. Mankind has rebelled against God. They fall short of God's perfection, the essence of sin.

God allowed it to happen. How do we know? Because it exists! If you cannot understand these simple things, then at least cease from alleging, that those of us who believe God predestines some things, chooses some things, those of us who believe the Bible when it says these things, are accusing God of creating evil. We do not say that, we do not think that, people like you say we say that, and it is defamatory. 

On the other hand, there are lots of things in the creation now, that God did put there. He cursed the earth, if you will recall. Women having increased pain in childbirth, is one example of unpleasantness, that God DID do. If God did that, then it is a good thing, not sin. We may not like it, but it is what it is, unless of course, one rejects scripture.

 

[hmbld]

22 minutes ago, Omegaman 3.0 said:

 

Ponder some, and let me know what you think. If you really want to ponder and dig, check this out, read the verses and answer the questions from the verses, and see what you conclude!

I did check it out, and while I can see your thought process is a possibility, and I already confessed that I seem to cherry pick verses that agree with my opinion, and several of the verses you supplied I do want to brush off, it also seems you pick and choose what you agree with, though you have studied much more than I, and can encompass much more thought and scripture than I without getting lost in the forest.  I'm slightly too deep in the forest and will have to see if my head will clear up later, thanks again mega!

[Omegaman 3.0]

22 minutes ago, enoob57 said:

Based on this you have said - who has told God what to do?

Stephen, you really, really need to stop reading into things that people say, mis-characterizing what people say, when they disagree with you, is close to putting words into their mouths. One of two things is happening, either you are doing it intentionally (which I doubt), or you are not understanding, If you think that those who are of the mind, that God is sovereign, and has allowed things to happen (which is so beyond obvious that I do not even know what to say) are somehow, saying that God is the author if evil or anything close to it, then you are just not getting it. If that is how you see it, that is YOUR reasoning, not ours. If you don't understand, then stop accusing others and acknowledge what they are saying, not what they are not.

What part of sovereign do you not understand? No one tells God what to do!

 

[hmbld]

"If God wants all to come, and is able to make that happen, yet it does not happen, then does it not stand to reason, that He chooses for it not to happen? As Paul asked: "For who can resist His will?" It is a rhetorical question to which the obvious answer is "no one can resist God's will!" Nothing can happen, that God has not allowed."

Certainly no one could resist God.  Yet if He chooses to call every sinner as He desires all to come to Him, why could God not let each sinner choose after calling them, thereby allowing free will at that point?