Not that many of you want to know, but some of my thoughts on free will

[Omegaman 3.0]

Thoughts on Free Will

The following is an explanation of something I have said regarding what I believe about free will. I was asked to explain what I meant, so that is what I am attempting to do here. My response is:

OKAY, what you partially quoted was me saying this:

I enjoy free will, and what I believe about it is: You are free to choose to do what you want to do, but you are not free to choose what it is that you want to do, nor are you necessarily able, to do what you choose to do!

I think perhaps the best way to explain this is giving examples of those three aspects of free will which I believe.

1.       “You are free to choose to do WHAT you want to do”

For example, you may choose to jump out of a flying airplane and flap your arms in an effort to fly. If that is what you want to, then yes, you are free to make that choice that is your free will.

2.      “but you are not free to choose what it IS that you want to do”

Now you could choose to poke your eye out with a pencil, but you not able to choose to want that. You either want that, or you do not. While some people may actually want that, I doubt they choose to want that, they just want what they want, without even thinking about it. However, most do not want that and they cannot want that, it is outside of their control.

3.      “nor are you necessarily ABLE to do what you choose to do!”

Going back the airplane illustration, you might make that choice to jump out, flap your arms and fly. However no matter how much you want that, no matter if you choose that, there are factors involved that prevent you from being able to fly in that manner.

I believe these three thing are pretty much what can be said about free will, in terms of what you can choose freely (anything you want), what you are unable to choose limited by aspects of your own personality (which could change), and your powerlessness to make your choices happen.

Summary:
You can choose what you want,
 You cannot choose what to want,
 You have limited power to make your choices effective.

The above are just in general, but when we begin to discuss theology, it becomes more complicated. Why? Because our will is not the only will involved. Perhaps there is another person (God) who has a say in all of this.

For example, many Christians believe that as a free will choice, they decided to have Jesus the Christ as their Lord and Savior. They might even know the time and place they made that decision, and the circumstances surrounding that choice. I myself recall where I was, approximately when, and under what circumstances I made the choice. From the standpoint of my perspective, I made the choice, and I was not forced to, I freely chose.

However, What if there is a being, who created me, and by virtue of His creation, He owns me, is sovereign and can do with me as He sees fit, without even asking my permission?

Suppose such a One, chose me to choose Him? If He did, would that be free will on my part? What if I was unable to choose Him, because as a sinner, I am not inclined to the things of God, but am hostile and rebellious?  My nature as a sinner, dictates to me what I will choose.

 

Everything is limited by it’s own nature (outside of the miraculous). Iron horse shoes will not float in liquid water, where gravity is involved. People cannot flap their arms and fly. Even God is not able to do everything, His nature limits Him.

So, what if I am a slave to sin, and it masters me?

If that were the case, then I am a captive in need of liberation, though God does not owe me anything. He does not even owe me an explanation for what He does; after all, He is God!

How do these things interplay, God and human free will?

There once was a man named Jonah. One day, God told him to go preach to the Ninevites about their evil. Jonah did not like the Ninevites, so he thought to himself: “I think I will take a vacation in Tarshish, in the opposite direction. That is how rebellious humans use their free will.

In spite of Jonah’s free will, God was not going to just let Jonah just do as he pleased. So God prepared a big fish, to give Jonah a free ride back in the direction of Nineveh. The fish vomited Jonah onto a beach, but he was still a long walk from Nineveh. I suspect that Jonah had some time to rethink this and consider his options. He could choose to do what he wanted to, but that was not working out too well for him. He wasn’t thrilled with the idea of going to Nineveh, but the option was not attractive. Now he chose to do what God said. He made that decision. While it was made begrudgingly, I submit that is was STILL his free will.

Here is the thing though:
God ALSO has free will. In a battle of wills, who will win? In some cases, I think it is true, that some are stubborn, and God lets them have their way. However, that isn’t really winning, that is a tragic loss.

God could have, of course, made Jonah go to Nineveh, moving Jonah’s feet, and opening his mouth to make him preach. He used a donkey to speak once; he can certainly use a wayward prophet. However, God does not seem to want to make marionettes out of people.

As in the case of Jonah, God does not make people go against their will, but He sure can make them willing to go!

There is another thing that is something to think about. Do you believe that God know everything, including the future? I do. So, if God knew that I would someday choose His Son, Jesus, will it turn out to be just as He foresaw it? I think the answer to that question is “Yes”. I am not saying that God chose to save me, based on what he foresaw me doing eventually. After all, He chose me, I did not chose Him.

Eph 1:

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. 

So, I would submit that people might want to ponder:

If God knew that I was going to choose Him, and that was definetly how it was going to turn out, predestined, as the verse says, is there any other way it would turn out? If not, what does that mean with respect to our free will? Can we make a free will choice that makes God wrong?

[DeighAnn]

I for one totally enjoyed it.  

As for free will, many are called few are chosen.

 

3 hours ago, Omegaman 3.0 said:

There is another thing that is something to think about. Do you believe that God know everything, including the future? I do. So, if God knew that I would someday choose His Son, Jesus, will it turn out to be just as He foresaw it? I think the answer to that question is “Yes”. I am not saying that God chose to save me, based on what he foresaw me doing eventually. After all, He chose me, I did not chose Him.

I believe God does know everything but I don't believe He did.  I think He had a basic plan and KNEW that it would come to pass but I believe he left a lot of it up to chance.  There are laws that all have to follow and there are certain laws on certain somes that they only have to follow, and there are other ones that don't have the certain laws of the certain somes but have the other ones all have.   God lets all duke it out themselves but whenever the situation starts going too far askew of His plan He calls in the certain somes to get the other ones back in line, though sometimes the other ones are actually acting on his behalf and it only seems to be, though they are not going askew from His point of view. Sometimes He uses the certain somes to guide the other ones, sometimes not.  

Still so much easier to say many are called few are chosen.  

So God is sitting a the beginning of the parade making adjustments and sees the whole thing happen before it even gets to OUR BEGINNING, giving us free will, freewill with Gods interference if He wants, and all with Gods complete knowledge.  

It would be silly to create beings with free will and then not SEE how it goes on its' own.  Why not just make robots if you are not going to give them minds of their own.  How will you ever be able to tell if someone would love you,  given the chance, 
if YOU NEVER GIVE THEM THE CHANCE?  What fun would that be?  God knows He could speak at any moment and back to nothing no one to even be the wiser.  I wonder if He ever did that before.  I know if I created a world I would WANT to see who did what on their own and not just create a world that just followed my every thought.  And I would make a deal with myself, I will only get involved with a few, in hopes to see many of the many find me.  

Any how, those are some of my thoughts on the subject.  

[Michael37]

4 hours ago, Omegaman 3.0 said:

So, I would submit that people might want to ponder:

If God knew that I was going to choose Him, and that was definetly how it was going to turn out, predestined, as the verse says, is there any other way it would turn out? If not, what does that mean with respect to our free will? Can we make a free will choice that makes God wrong?

Also for ponderance, the unwillingness of some to be chosen for predestinated conformity to the image of God's Son.

[Sower]

3 hours ago, Omegaman 3.0 said:

If God knew that I was going to choose Him, and that was definitely how it was going to turn out, predestined, as the verse says, is there any other way it would turn out? If not, what does that mean with respect to our free will? Can we make a free will choice that makes God wrong?

2.      “but you are not free to choose what it IS that you want to do”

Yes/no/maybe.
There are many things I did not want to do that I chose to do, and later wanted to do.
You are right about our wants, as they are formed over time from past experiences.
Not chosen.
What I'm saying is, they can be changed, as in, say, repenting.

Concerning God and scripture, there are many references to God being angry with His created beings,
and other references to His being pleased also with them.
I know God's way are not man's ways, but in order to be angry or pleased about something,
it has to be a surprise, or if anticipated, but not foreknown. God knows all. He wrote the program.
For us to make God angry, or to please Him, a free will also must exist for us to chose to do what's pleasing to Him.

His chosen O.T. keepers of the law let Him down, displeased/angered Him, and He repented.
'Repented'     from meta and noeó  Definition  to change one's mind or purpose
3340 metanoéō (from 3326 /metá, "changed after being with" and 3539 /noiéō, "think") – properly, "think differently after," "after a change of mind"; to repent (literally, "think differently afterwards").
This is how the gentiles were given access to salvation.
Why did God repent?  If man had not the ability to go against His will, or do His will.
I believe God is so smart He can put limits on Himself (somehow) to obtain His will, to experience 'emotion'.
Scripture says God is a person(3 in 1) Personable. Yet sovereign.

Can we make a free will choice that makes God wrong?

We can (and do) make free will choices that the scripture says makes God angry/pleased.
But does not make Him wrong.  He wrote the program.

 

 

 

[Michael37]

51 minutes ago, Sower said:

There are many things I did not want to do that I chose to do, and later wanted to do.
You are right about our wants, as they are formed over time from past experiences.
Not chosen.
What I'm saying is, they can be changed, as in, say, repenting.

A good little precis of "choice causation", Sower. 

Speaking of causation, as many will be aware there are two major causes in existence.

1. The cause of sin, death, damnation and eternal torment.
2. The cause of holiness, life, salvation and eternal peace.

A cause for ponderance . . .for sure.

[Guest clancy]

I am not my own,I belong to Jesus....my life is past I have a new life in Christ...we are not free to do as we once did....we have a leader now, that leader is Christ, only he can bring us into the Fathers will for our lives......His Will Will Be Done....a word from God will never fail.....just my thoughts.

[Sower]

10 hours ago, Michael37 said:

A good little precis of "choice causation", Sower.

I appreciate your response, Michael. Really.
But it's meaning escapes me. ( at first glance)
The past few months I have been looking up many similar unfamiliar words just to try to reply to a post.
With little success. This new level of language is beyond my more normal usage.
Even finding out the definitions and thinking "Oh, I see", does not cause me to want to reply........
Like learning a secondary language, I'll probably insult someone, thinking I had only agreed with them.
This innocent/ignorance may cause someone to commit the sin of anger, or get hurt..............

cause    a person or thing that gives rise to an action, phenomenon, or condition   *(got that one)

precis    a summary or abstract of a text or speech.                                                       

Causation, in legal terms, refers to the relationship of cause and effect between one event 
or action and the result.
It is the act or process that produces an effect

 

10 hours ago, Michael37 said:

Speaking of causation, as many will be aware there are two major causes in existence.

1. The cause of sin, death, damnation and eternal torment.
2. The cause of holiness, life, salvation and eternal peace.

A cause for ponderance . . .for sure.

1 The cause of sin, death, damnation and eternal torment.    2 The cause of holiness, life, salvation and eternal peace.
Don't know what caused God to create Lucifer =
created being
pride
condemnation
lie                                                                                                                                             eternal peace
lust of eye                                                                                                               holiness
lust of flesh                                                                                                    life
pride                                                                                               salvation
sin                                                                              repentance
death                                                                 light
 **---or---- the spirit moves, a seed sown
damnation
eternal torment....
 

"A cause for ponderance . . .for sure"
For sure...a cause for my dictionary...:)


 

 

[missmuffet]

Free will doesn't mean that humans can do anything he pleases. Our choices are limited. A man may choose to walk across a bridge or not walk across it; what he can't choose is to fly over the bridge. 

A man can't choose to make himself righteous-his sin nature prevents him from canceling his guilt Romans 3:23. So free will is limited by nature. 

The Bible tells us that we not only have the ability to choose, we also have the responsibility to choose wisely. 

[Riverwalker]

19 hours ago, Omegaman 3.0 said:

Thoughts on Free Will

The following is an explanation of something I have said regarding what I believe about free will. I was asked to explain what I meant, so that is what I am attempting to do here. My response is:

OKAY, what you partially quoted was me saying this:

I enjoy free will, and what I believe about it is: You are free to choose to do what you want to do, but you are not free to choose what it is that you want to do, nor are you necessarily able, to do what you choose to do!

I think perhaps the best way to explain this is giving examples of those three aspects of free which I believe.

1.       “You are free to choose to do WHAT you want to do”

For example, you may choose to jump out of a flying airplane and flap your arms in an effort to fly. If that is what you want to, then yes, you are free to make that choice that is your free will.

2.      “but you are not free to choose what it IS that you want to do”

Now you could choose to poke your eye out with a pencil, but you not able to choose to want that. You either want that, or you do not. While some people may actually want that, I doubt they choose to want that, they just want what they want, without even thinking about it. However, most do not want that and they cannot want that, it is outside of their control.

3.      “nor are you necessarily ABLE to do what you choose to do!”

Going back the airplane illustration, you might make that choice to jump out, flap your arms and fly. However no matter how much you want that, no matter if you choose that, there are factors involved that prevent you from being able to fly in that manner.

I believe these three thing are pretty much what can be said about free will, in terms of what you can choose freely (anything you want), what you are unable to choose limited by aspects of your own personality (which could change), and your powerlessness to make your choices happen.

Summary:
You can choose what you want,
 You cannot choose what to want,
 You have limited power to make your choices effective.

The above are just in general, but when we begin to discuss theology, it becomes more complicated. Why? Because our will is not the only will involved. Perhaps there is another person (God) who has a say in all of this.

For example, many Christians believe that as a free will choice, they decided to have Jesus the Christ as their Lord and Savior. They might even know the time and place they made that decision, and the circumstances surrounding that choice. I myself recall where I was, approximately when, and under what circumstances I made the choice. From the standpoint of my perspective, I made the choice, and I was not forced to, I freely chose.

However, What if there is a being, who created me, and by virtue of His creation, He owns me, is sovereign and can do with me as He sees fit, without even asking my permission?

Suppose such a One, chose me to choose Him? If He did, would that be free will on my part? What if I was unable to choose Him, because as a sinner, I am not inclined to the things of God, but am hostile and rebellious?  My nature as a sinner, dictates to me what I will choose.

 

Everything is limited by it’s own nature (outside of the miraculous). Iron horse shoes will not float in liquid water, where gravity is involved. People cannot flap their arms and fly. Even God is not able to do everything, His nature limits Him.

So, what if I am a slave to sin, and it masters me?

If that were the case, then I am a captive in need of liberation, though God does not owe me anything. He does not even owe me an explanation for what He does; after all, He is God!

How do these things interplay, God and human free will?

There once was a man named Jonah. One day, God told him to go preach to the Ninevites about their evil. Jonah did not like the Ninevites, so he thought to himself: “I think I will take a vacation in Tarshish, in the opposite direction. That is how rebellious humans use their free will.

In spite of Jonah’s free will, God was not going to just let Jonah just do as he pleased. So God prepared a big fish, to give Jonah a free ride back in the direction of Nineveh. The fish vomited Jonah onto a beach, but he was still a long walk from Nineveh. I suspect that Jonah had some time to rethink this and consider his options. He could choose to do what he wanted to, but that was not working out too well for him. He wasn’t thrilled with the idea of going to Nineveh, but the option was not attractive. Now he chose to do what God said. He made that decision. While it was made begrudgingly, I submit that is was STILL his free will.

Here is the thing though:
God ALSO has free will. In a battle of wills, who will win? In some cases, I think it is true, that some are stubborn, and God lets them have their way. However, that isn’t really winning, that is a tragic loss.

God could have, of course, made Jonah go to Nineveh, moving Jonah’s feet, and opening his mouth to make him preach. He used a donkey to speak once; he can certainly use a wayward prophet. However, God does not seem to want to make marionettes out of people.

As in the case of Jonah, God does not make people go against their will, but He sure can make them willing to go!

There is another thing that is something to think about. Do you believe that God know everything, including the future? I do. So, if God knew that I would someday choose His Son, Jesus, will it turn out to be just as He foresaw it? I think the answer to that question is “Yes”. I am not saying that God chose to save me, based on what he foresaw me doing eventually. After all, He chose me, I did not chose Him.

Eph 1:

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. 

So, I would submit that people might want to ponder:

If God knew that I was going to choose Him, and that was definetly how it was going to turn out, predestined, as the verse says, is there any other way it would turn out? If not, what does that mean with respect to our free will? Can we make a free will choice that makes God wrong?

You are free to make any choice you want.  But you are not free from the consequences of those choices.

But I have to disagree, we often want things we do not choose to pursue.  As Man I am attracted to many women. As a married Christian man I choose to be faithful. As an Italian man I have a great weakness for sausage of all kinds, but as an older man I do not eat them as they are bad for me.  As a married man I often want to withhold some truths from my wife, knowing that she will catch me up short on them, but as a Christian man I try not to. (Success is variable on this one  )

All through life we are faced with a dichotomy of choices. Will we do what God wants, or will we do what our flesh wants. It is a constant battle of freewill and choices, and priorities. It is not a matter of what we want, its a matter of what we want MORE. To please God or please ourselves.

2nd Corinthians 10: 3 For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war according to the flesh. 4 For the weapons of our warfare are not [a]carnal but mighty in God for pulling down strongholds, 5 casting down arguments and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God, bringing every thought into captivity to the obedience of Christ, 6 and being ready to punish all disobedience when your obedience is fulfilled.

Jonah was free to run away from Ninevah, but he was not free from the consequences of the choice. He could have continued to resist God and died in that fish's belly.  But he finally decided that God's deal was better. and even still he did it grudgingly and was mad when those darn Ninevites repented. But the point is  he decided what was more important to him, and based on that  he made his choice. To live instead of to die.

So Jonah we free to do choose to do what he wanted

He was able to do it

And he did it.

God will straighten the path, open all the doors but it is still up to us to walk that path, or walk another and face the consequences

[Riverwalker]

17 minutes ago, missmuffet said:

Our choices are limited. A man may choose to walk across a bridge or not walk across it; what he can't choose is to fly over the bridge.

A man can try to fly across the gap, either without help with disastrous results or with a flying device....say a jet pack. So limitations are not so strict.

A man can even try to save himself...again with disastrous results.  The choice is not the problem the consequences are

But WHY you would want to do that...is another question

Edited March 15, 2021 by Riverwalker