Paradigm shift in Christian thinking over 2000 years

[Whyme]

1 minute ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, again, Whyme.

I'm not worried about a pronunciation of a Greek word.

That's very interesting. And, yes, you're right. If they define "agapee" as "godly love," then they do indeed have a problem with that verse. Thus, it's not the text or the translation of the Greek, but the READER'S INTERPRETATION with such a definition in mind that's in error.

You're also right about "fileoo" ("phileo") being used for God loving the Son in John 5:20. The word is also used for God loving us, as well, in John 16:27. This word can mean "to have affection for" and even "to kiss!"

I've said this before, but if one attaches too much to the definition of a word, one sets a snare for himself in other passages of Scripture. That's why I try to limit my definitions for certain words to their etymologies.

Thanks for bringing this to our attention!

Thank you and you are welcome

[Retrobyter]

18 minutes ago, Whyme said:

Well if agape is godly love as people say, then why did the godless pharasees have that kind of love? Also God loves the son with phileo love not just agape. Sorry if i pronounce phileo incorrectly but you prolly get what I'm saying.

Shalom, again, Whyme.

Have you considered the Greek words and their meanings in Yeshua`s exchange with Kefa (Peter) when He asked him three times, "Lovest thou me?" What words were there, and how should we interpret them?

[Whyme]

13 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, again, Whyme.

Have you considered the Greek words and their meanings in Yeshua`s exchange with Kefa (Peter) when He asked him three times, "Lovest thou me?" What words were there, and how should we interpret them?

Yes I've considered it and it's the scripture people use to teach about agape love. They say Peter didn't have agape love yet, but Peter says yes when Jesus asks Peter if he agape him, so either Peter lied or he did indeed have agape love for the lord.

[Whyme]

I've debated the word fear (phobos)too. They say fear means to be in awe of God but not to be afraid, however the scriptures say that perfect love casts out fear so if fear means awe then does perfect love cast out awe? No. Of course we are talking about an ancient text and maybe it has two meanings? I don't know

[Retrobyter]

 Shalom (Peace) to all.

It's been a while since I posted in this topic, but I need to get back to what I was talking about here. Sorry for the distractions, but sometimes people need to explore a word or two for which I've changed the definitions BACK to what they meant originally. One of that last words we've talked about is the definition of the word "soul." Again, the word "soul," used to translate the Hebrew word "nefesh," means an "air-breathing creature," and that's "creature" in the sense of a "created being," not a "monster."

Again, the root word in this family of Hebrew words is "naafash," which means "to breathe (air)."

This really shouldn't be difficult for anyone to understand; it's only more difficult for someone to accept.

I've read a lot of science fiction and fantasy books, and particularly for fantasy books, they will have weird ideas of what the "soul" is. Furthermore, many cultures, particularly those that claim to be "spiritual" or "spiritist," make use of these spooky ideas of what a "soul" is. The whole idea that a "soul" is "the immaterial part of a human being (or an animal or even a plant)" comes from pagan theologies, not from the Bible.

Think of all the pagan theories and philosophies attached to a twisted understanding of what a "soul" is: reincarnation, out-of-body experiences or astral projection, selling one's "soul" to the devil, zombies or bodies brought to life without souls, vampires or soul-less creatures that exist without a "soul" living forever and thirsting for blood to stay strong, golems or soul-less bodies of clay brought to life by magic, one's "soul" going to Hades or to the Elysian Fields when one dies in Greek mythology or going into the river of souls in Egyptian theology, and the list goes on and on!

The idea of astral projection and the flow of time give some the idea that the "firmament" is the flow of time - past, present, and future - as seen from a "soul" outside the normal existence of Time! And, there are SO many ways that other, hardly-used words are given different meanings in different fantasies. (The unbridled imagination of human beings is truly a wild horse to ride!)

Human beings need to have a FIRM anchor to the reality of what these words mean! Otherwise, the sky's the limit of what human beings can fantasize!

 

The "SPIRIT" is another word that is often misunderstood. "Spirit" was the English word used to translate the Hebrew word "ruwach." "Ruwach" simply means a "wind."

The first use of the word is found in Genesis 1:2:

Genesis 1:1-2 (KJV)

1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. 2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

In Hebrew, this is ...

בְּרֵאשִׁ֖ית בָּרָ֣א אֱלֹהִ֑ים אֵ֥ת הַשָּׁמַ֖יִם וְאֵ֥ת הָאָֽרֶץ׃ 1

וְהָאָ֗רֶץ הָיְתָ֥ה תֹ֙הוּ֙ וָבֹ֔הוּ וְחֹ֖שֶׁךְ עַל־פְּנֵ֣י תְהֹ֑ום וְר֣וּחַ אֱלֹהִ֔ים מְרַחֶ֖פֶת עַל־פְּנֵ֥י הַמָּֽיִם׃2

(Note that Hebrew is read from right to left; so, please ignore the left-to-right line direction.)

Transliterated, this is ...

1 Bree'shiyt baaraa' Elohiym eet hashaamayim v'eet haa'aarets:

2 Vhaa'aarets haaytaah tohuw vaaVohuw vchoshekh `al-pneey t-howm v-ruwach Elohiym mrachefet `al-pneey hamaayim:

And, a word for word translation is ...

1 In-beginning created God (next word is the direct object) the-skies and-(next word is the direct object) the-earth:

2 And-the-earth was formless and-empty and-darkness over-face of-[the]-deep and-wind of-God blew-softly over-face of-the-waters:

Please note that so far in this first chapter of the Bible, nothing is said about the "universe" or the "spiritual realm" or "another dimension." This is SOLELY about the creation of this planet's biosphere.

In fact, the words "hashaamayim" and "haa'aarets" have not been given to these substances, yet! They are only USED here to identify the substances that are about to be formed. That's an important concept! Remember: In Hebrew literature, the writer will often summarize first what is to come later in the writing. Then, he will go into the details of the written work.

This is also true about the word "hammayim," translated "the waters," in verse 2. It is used here in verse 2 to identify the substance, but it is not formed as "waters below the firmament" (or as "waters above the firmament") until verse 7.

The substance of "hashaamayim" is named "shaamaayim" in verse 8, and the substance of "haa'aarets" is named "erets" in verse 10. (The "waters below the firmament" are named as "yaammiym" or "seas" in verse 10, as well.) One should also take note that the word "hashaamayim," with the definite article "ha-," has a dual ending (2) as does "hammayim" (2), while "yammiym" has a plural ending (3 or more).

So, let's go back to a "spirit" being the "wind." A smaller version of a "wind" can be created when a person blows air out of his or her mouth. One's words flow out of the person's mouth with that "wind," and emotions are conveyed in those words on that "wind." The attitude one conveys with those emotions is also carried on that "wind."

So, the word "ruwach," while primarily meaning the "wind," can also mean the "breath" of an individual, the "words" of that individual," the "emotions" of that individual, and the "attitude" of that individual conveyed to a listener. The context will determine to what extent the word should be taken. This is also true for the Greek equivalent, "pneuma."

This is the beginning of the true meaning of this word "spirit."

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, to all.

Josh and I see things very differently. Josh thinks that I'm not "reading Scripture as written," but I, on the other hand, think that he can't "read Scripture as written" because he can't see how the very words that he is reading have changed in their definitions. So, he inadvertently "reads" things differently than they were written.

The very fact that many well-meaning Christians still think that "Christ" was Jesus' last name is an obvious proof of that position.

The fact that most Christians cannot see that "soul" means an "air-breathing creature" is proof of that position.

The fact that most Christians do not know their Hebraic and Jewish origins is proof of that position.

The fact that most Christians don't know that "heaven" means the "sky" and that "heavenly" sometimes means "of the sky" or "from the sky" and sometimes means "of above the sky" or "from above the sky" is proof of that position.

Even the simple fact that "baptizoo," meaning "I submerge," is the word transliterated as "I baptize" is proof of that position. How many different ways do Christians think it is okay to "baptize?" "Submerging?" "Dipping?" "Pouring?" "Sprinkling?" "Making a confession?"

One cannot legitimately make the assumption that all prophecies in the Old Testament are already fulfilled and no longer are relevant to today's positions of eschatology - the study of last things. One cannot build one's eschatology solely on the writings of the New Testament!

Furthermore, the New Testament writers make statements that show that the Messiah will reign in the future and is not now currently reigning, but they have been so mistranslated and misrepresented that one today will find it hard to understand that this position was being supported by the writings of the NT writers! Therefore, many Christians today think we're already in the Kingdom of God and can't understand the futurist position.

I'm not trying to be devisive; I'm trying to UNITE God's people under a proper terminology that will get all Christians and believers under a single banner as the final days approach. We must all "get on the same page," so to speak.

[wingnut-]

4 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Josh and I see things very differently. Josh thinks that I'm not "reading Scripture as written," but I, on the other hand, think that he can't "read Scripture as written" because he can't see how the very words that he is reading have changed in their definitions. So, he inadvertently "reads" things differently than they were written.

 

Hey brother,

Just needed to say I was surprised to see this from you, if you had at least tagged him it might not have appeared as a cheap shot.  Probably not though, stating that a person "can't" read is not very subtle.

As far as the words we are reading having changed definitions, you still have yet to provide any evidence for that.

 

4 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

The very fact that many well-meaning Christians still think that "Christ" was Jesus' last name is an obvious proof of that position.

 

I can't say that I have ever known a single christian that thinks "Christ" was Jesus' last name.  That is not to say that there aren't any people that do, but I don't see a handful of people believing such a thing as meeting the criteria for redefining a word for all of Christianity.

Now in regards to the word angel and its usage, I would agree to an extent that there are many professing Christians that misuse this completely out of context, but again, that still doesn't qualify as a whole to Christianity because more do not misuse it than those that do.

 

4 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

One cannot legitimately make the assumption that all prophecies in the Old Testament are already fulfilled and no longer are relevant to today's positions of eschatology - the study of last things. One cannot build one's eschatology solely on the writings of the New Testament!

 

One can easily deduce that any prophecy scripture specifically tells us has been fulfilled has indeed been fulfilled.  This includes those OT prophecies which are cited in the NT as having been fulfilled.  It seems to me the confusion only exists when one tries to dissect a prophecy and claim only the specific portions of it cited have been fulfilled, in spite of the fact the entire prophecy given deals with time sensitive events that cannot be separated from each other.  Joel 2 is a perfect example of this as is commonly seen on this forum.

Basically what my point is, that you still have not even come close to providing any actual evidence for what you appear to be claiming is a widespread problem for Christianity.  

[Retrobyter]

6 hours ago, Josheb said:

Evidence says otherwise. 

I'm pretty sure we've discussed this practice of wishing people peace and then posting critically about them, and...

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Hi, Josheb.

Ephesians 4:29 (KJV)

29 Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers.

I have not "allowed any corrupt communication" out of my mouth (or fingers), nor have I abused anyone (from my perspective, at least). My mention of you in this last post was to draw the contrast between what I'm trying to convey in this topic and the ways in which the topic has been contradicted. 

6 hours ago, Josheb said:

Debate the subject, not the person. It is possible to disagree about a doctrine or subject under discussion without insulting the person with whom you are debating.

I will do my best to do so; however, remember that our responses are TIED to our names within the quote windows. Sometimes, for those reading along, it's simpler to refer to the quote by the person's name than it is to quote all that the person has said. For me right now, each thing that has been posted to which I am responding is LINKED by "6 hours ago, Josheb said:". It's not to you I am objecting; it's to the conclusions presented that I am objecting.

6 hours ago, Josheb said:

Also remember that the fact that a person disagrees with you does not mean they are attacking you as a person. Respect each other in the love of God! This is the main reason that threads get stopped, shut down, and even deleted!  

To this, I'll only say, "what's good for the goose is also good for the gander."

6 hours ago, Josheb said:

Keep the posts about the posts, not the posters. 

I try. It's just that sometimes it's hard to do so without mentioning the source of the post. Again, I'm not trying to attack any one person; it's SIMILAR TO tying the words of Nebuchadnezzar to the book that Daniel wrote! I certainly wouldn't say that Daniel said the things that Nebuchadnezzar said, but he said them within Daniel's work, and Daniel quoted him. Rather than type,

"Then an herald [of Nebuchadnezzar] cried aloud, 'To you it is commanded, O people, nations, and languages, That at what time ye hear the sound of the cornet, flute, harp, sackbut, psaltery, dulcimer, and all kinds of musick, ye fall down and worship the golden image that Nebuchadnezzar the king hath set up: And whoso falleth not down and worshippeth shall the same hour be cast into the midst of a burning fiery furnace. Therefore at that time, when all the people heard the sound of the cornet, flute, harp, sackbut, psaltery, and all kinds of musick, all the people, the nations, and the languages, fell down andworshipped the golden image that Nebuchadnezzar the king had set up,'" we just say, "Daniel 3:4-7."

This quotation is NO REFLECTION on the person of Daniel!

How does one summarize all the posts that point to a particular viewpoint without including the name of the person who has stated all the posts and the viewpoint? Again, I mean no disrespect to any person.

6 hours ago, Josheb said:

If an op fails, it does so on its own merits. It is eisegetic inference and logical fallacy that prove fatal, not the number of people who disagree. 

But, hey, 

Keep working on it. 

Well, I don't believe my op here has indeed failed. I believe that the position I have taken still has merit and is valuable to the Christians who will take heed to it.

[angels4u]

9 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, to all.

Josh and I see things very differently. Josh thinks that I'm not "reading Scripture as written," but I, on the other hand, think that he can't "read Scripture as written" because he can't see how the very words that he is reading have changed in their definitions. So, he inadvertently "reads" things differently than they were written.

The very fact that many well-meaning Christians still think that "Christ" was Jesus' last name is an obvious proof of that position.

The fact that most Christians cannot see that "soul" means an "air-breathing creature" is proof of that position.

The fact that most Christians do not know their Hebraic and Jewish origins is proof of that position.

The fact that most Christians don't know that "heaven" means the "sky" and that "heavenly" sometimes means "of the sky" or "from the sky" and sometimes means "of above the sky" or "from above the sky" is proof of that position.

Even the simple fact that "baptizoo," meaning "I submerge," is the word transliterated as "I baptize" is proof of that position. How many different ways do Christians think it is okay to "baptize?" "Submerging?" "Dipping?" "Pouring?" "Sprinkling?" "Making a confession?"

One cannot legitimately make the assumption that all prophecies in the Old Testament are already fulfilled and no longer are relevant to today's positions of eschatology - the study of last things. One cannot build one's eschatology solely on the writings of the New Testament!

Furthermore, the New Testament writers make statements that show that the Messiah will reign in the future and is not now currently reigning, but they have been so mistranslated and misrepresented that one today will find it hard to understand that this position was being supported by the writings of the NT writers! Therefore, many Christians today think we're already in the Kingdom of God and can't understand the futurist position.

I'm not trying to be devisive; I'm trying to UNITE God's people under a proper terminology that will get all Christians and believers under a single banner as the final days approach. We must all "get on the same page," so to speak.

J

Quote

Josh and I see things very differently. Josh thinks that I'm not "reading Scripture as written," but I, on the other hand, think that he can't "read Scripture as written" because he can't see how the very words that he is reading have changed in their definitions. So, he inadvertently "reads" things differently than they were written.

Hey Roy,

It should be ok with everybody that you're both different and see things different, God didn't make us robots and the Holy Spirit some points things different out to you ans He does to me,if we feel convicted over something,it's a sin to us and maybe not to others,we're all different

All the old testament prophecies are not fulfillid yet ,I read a futuristic Kingdom coming soon,the signs are all around..

Jesus His last name could have been . Jesus was called Jesus of Nazareth?

 

[Retrobyter]

4 hours ago, wingnut- said:

Hey brother,

Just needed to say I was surprised to see this from you, if you had at least tagged him it might not have appeared as a cheap shot.  Probably not though, stating that a person "can't" read is not very subtle.

Hi, wingnut-.

I felt I would have been making a "cheap shot" if I HAD tagged him! I wasn't addressing the PERSON; I was addressing what we each SEE and how we see them in what we read! We can be reading exactly the same passage of Scripture (e.g., Acts 2:30-31) and read entirely the opposite thing! I may have stated it poorly, seeing that Josheb has taken offense to what I wrote, but I wasn't meaning to attack the man; I was attacking the conclusions! It wasn't about HIM not being able to read what is written; it was about ANYONE not being able to read what is written.

4 hours ago, wingnut- said:

As far as the words we are reading having changed definitions, you still have yet to provide any evidence for that.

To this, I'm afraid that I'm not able to convey enough evidence in this forum to substantiate what I believe ... yet, at least not to the affect of convincing a person of this approach. I am attempting to do so in a book I'm writing, but the research is too extensive for a single word, let alone for all of them.

For instance, if one takes the word "heaven" and attempts to show that its definition and meaning are about the "sky," rather than some ethereal place out beyond space or in another dimension of reality to which people refer when they say "Heaven" with a capital "H," the only way to convince a person may be to show how all of the occurrences of that word actually refers to the "sky," rather than to "Heaven." It can be done because the number of occurrences is limited to a finite number, but one should be able to see that the task would be daunting at least! And, that's just ONE word!

4 hours ago, wingnut- said:

I can't say that I have ever known a single christian that thinks "Christ" was Jesus' last name.  That is not to say that there aren't any people that do, but I don't see a handful of people believing such a thing as meeting the criteria for redefining a word for all of Christianity.

Well, this may have been a bad example for the word "Christ." There are such Christians, but truthfully, most are "newbies" to the faith and just haven't been taught, yet.

However, let's be honest: There is a SIGNIFICANT number of Christians who don't know what "Christ" means. They do not know that "Christ" is merely the Greek equivalent (Christos) to the Hebrew word "Mashiyach" usually Anglicized to "Messiah." And, quite frankly, even if they do, they do not know all the nuances of the word "Messiah," particularly as the word is understood in the Hebrew Scriptures or by the People of the Book!

4 hours ago, wingnut- said:

Now in regards to the word angel and its usage, I would agree to an extent that there are many professing Christians that misuse this completely out of context, but again, that still doesn't qualify as a whole to Christianity because more do not misuse it than those that do.

Really? What is the first thing one thinks about when another says the word "angel?"

4 hours ago, wingnut- said:

One can easily deduce that any prophecy scripture specifically tells us has been fulfilled has indeed been fulfilled. This includes those OT prophecies which are cited in the NT as having been fulfilled. 

Let's take the example that Yeshua` (Jesus) used early in the history of His offer of the Kingdom to Israel:

Luke 4:16-21 (KJV)

16 And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read. 17 And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias [Isaiah]. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written,

18 "The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, 19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord."

20 And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him. 21 And he began to say unto them,

"This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears."

This is clearly a passage taken from Isaiah 61:1-2a:

Isaiah 61:1-3 (KJV)

1 The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound; 2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn; 3 To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the LORD, that he might be glorified.

However, this part that is bold-faced is the part to which Yeshua` was referring when He said, "This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears." The rest that I quoted was merely to finish the sentence! However, where Yeshua` stopped is significant! He was NOT referring to "the day of vengeance of our God" when He said "This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears!" Nor did He refer to the rest of Isaiah 61-66, let alone the other portions of the prophecy of Yeshayahuw (Isaiah) the prophet of God, marked as Isaiah 1-60!

So, what SOUNDED like a "complete fulfillment" was NOT!

MANY of the New Testament references to the Old Testament prophecies which then claim they "have been fulfilled" can be shown not to have been fulfilled in their entirety! Some had only BEGUN to be fulfilled and would continue to be fulfilled until the Second Coming of our Lord. Some were "fulfilled" IN PART as a symbol that the rest were going to be fulfilled more fully with the Second Coming.

4 hours ago, wingnut- said:

It seems to me the confusion only exists when one tries to dissect a prophecy and claim only the specific portions of it cited have been fulfilled, in spite of the fact the entire prophecy given deals with time sensitive events that cannot be separated from each other.  Joel 2 is a perfect example of this as is commonly seen on this forum.

Okay, let's look at Joel 2 and 3:

Joel 2:1-3:21 (KJV)

1 Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the LORD cometh, for it is nigh at hand;
2 A day of darkness and of gloominess, a day of clouds and of thick darkness, as the morning spread upon the mountains: a great people and a strong; there hath not been ever the like, neither shall be any more after it, even to the years of many generations.
3 A fire devoureth before them; and behind them a flame burneth: the land is as the garden of Eden before them, and behind them a desolate wilderness; yea, and nothing shall escape them.
4 The appearance of them is as the appearance of horses; and as horsemen, so shall they run.
5 Like the noise of chariots on the tops of mountains shall they leap, like the noise of a flame of fire that devoureth the stubble, as a strong people set in battle array.
6 Before their face the people shall be much pained: all faces shall gather blackness.
7 They shall run like mighty men; they shall climb the wall like men of war; and they shall march every one on his ways, and they shall not break their ranks:
8 Neither shall one thrust another; they shall walk every one in his path: and when they fall upon the sword, they shall not be wounded.
9 They shall run to and fro in the city; they shall run upon the wall, they shall climb up upon the houses; they shall enter in at the windows like a thief.
10 The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining:
11 And the LORD shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp is very great: for he isstrong that executeth his word: for the day of the LORD is great and very terrible; and who can abide it?
12 Therefore also now, saith the LORD, turn ye even to me with all your heart, and with fasting, and with weeping, and with mourning:
13 And rend your heart, and not your garments, and turn unto the LORD your God: for he isgracious and merciful, slow to anger, and of great kindness, and repenteth him of the evil.
14 Who knoweth if he will return and repent, and leave a blessing behind him; even a meat offering and a drink offering unto the LORD your God?
15 Blow the trumpet in Zion, sanctify a fast, call a solemn assembly:
16 Gather the people, sanctify the congregation, assemble the elders, gather the children, and those that suck the breasts: let the bridegroom go forth of his chamber, and the bride out of her closet.
17 Let the priests, the ministers of the LORD, weep between the porch and the altar, and let them say, Spare thy people, O LORD, and give not thine heritage to reproach, that the heathen should rule over them: wherefore should they say among the people, Where is their God?
18 Then will the LORD be jealous for his land, and pity his people.
19 Yea, the LORD will answer and say unto his people, Behold, I will send you corn, and wine, and oil, and ye shall be satisfied therewith: and I will no more make you a reproach among the heathen:
20 But I will remove far off from you the northern army, and will drive him into a land barren and desolate, with his face toward the east sea, and his hinder part toward the utmost sea, and his stink shall come up, and his ill savour shall come up, because he hath done great things.
21 Fear not, O land; be glad and rejoice: for the LORD will do great things.
22 Be not afraid, ye beasts of the field: for the pastures of the wilderness do spring, for the tree beareth her fruit, the fig tree and the vine do yield their strength.
23 Be glad then, ye children of Zion, and rejoice in the LORD your God: for he hath given you the former rain moderately, and he will cause to come down for you the rain, the former rain, and the latter rain in the first month.
24 And the floors shall be full of wheat, and the fats shall overflow with wine and oil.
25 And I will restore to you the years that the locust hath eaten, the cankerworm, and the caterpiller, and the palmerworm, my great army which I sent among you.
26 And ye shall eat in plenty, and be satisfied, and praise the name of the LORD your God, that hath dealt wondrously with you: and my people shall never be ashamed.
27 And ye shall know that I am in the midst of Israel, and that I am the LORD your God, and none else: and my people shall never be ashamed.
28 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:
29 And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.
30 And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.
31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.
32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.
1 For, behold, in those days, and in that time, when I shall bring again the captivity of Judah and Jerusalem,
2 I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my land.
3 And they have cast lots for my people; and have given a boy for an harlot, and sold a girl for wine, that they might drink.
4 Yea, and what have ye to do with me, O Tyre, and Zidon, and all the coasts of Palestine? will ye render me a recompence? and if ye recompense me, swiftly and speedily will I return your recompence upon your own head; 5 Because ye have taken my silver and my gold, and have carried into your temples my goodly pleasant things: 6 The children also of Judah and the children of Jerusalem have ye sold unto the Grecians, that ye might remove them far from their border. 7 Behold, I will raise them out of the place whither ye have sold them, and will return your recompence upon your own head: 8 And I will sell your sons and your daughters into the hand of the children of Judah, and they shall sell them to the Sabeans, to a people far off: for the LORD hath spoken it.
9 Proclaim ye this among the Gentiles; Prepare war, wake up the mighty men, let all the men of war draw near; let them come up:
10 Beat your plowshares into swords, and your pruninghooks into spears: let the weak say, I am strong.
11 Assemble yourselves, and come, all ye heathen, and gather yourselves together round about: thither cause thy mighty ones to come down, O LORD.
12 Let the heathen be wakened, and come up to the valley of Jehoshaphat: for there will I sit to judge all the heathen round about.
13 Put ye in the sickle, for the harvest is ripe: come, get you down; for the press is full, the fats overflow; for their wickedness is great.
14 Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision.
15 The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining.
16 The LORD also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the LORD will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel.
17 So shall ye know that I am the LORD your God dwelling in Zion, my holy mountain: then shall Jerusalem be holy, and there shall no strangers pass through her any more.
18 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the mountains shall drop down new wine, and the hills shall flow with milk, and all the rivers of Judah shall flow with waters, and a fountain shall come forth of the house of the LORD, and shall water the valley of Shittim.
19 Egypt shall be a desolation, and Edom shall be a desolate wilderness, for the violence against the children of Judah, because they have shed innocent blood in their land.
20 But Judah shall dwell for ever, and Jerusalem from generation to generation.
21 For I will cleanse their blood that I have not cleansed: for the LORD dwelleth in Zion.

Now, here's what Kefa ("Peter") said on the day of Pentecost:

Acts 2:14-24 (KJV)

14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them,

"Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words: 15 For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day. 16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;

17 "'And it shall come to pass in the last days,' saith God, 'I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: 18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: 19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke: 20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come: 21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.'

22 "Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know: 23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain: 24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it."

Thus, all we can determine from this is that of the portion of Joel 2 quoted in Acts 2 by Peter what was fulfilled is that "I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: 18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy" was fulfilled on the day of Pentecost. Thus, Acts 2:17-21 = Joel 2:28-32a, and only PART of that is what they were seeing happen on that day!

4 hours ago, wingnut- said:

Basically what my point is, that you still have not even come close to providing any actual evidence for what you appear to be claiming is a widespread problem for Christianity.  

Which is why I'm here in this op again.