Paradigm shift in Christian thinking over 2000 years

[DeighAnn]

7 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

20 But now is CHRIST (the MESSIAH) risen from the dead, and become the FIRSTFRUITS of them that slept. 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so IN CHRIST SHALL ALL BE MADE ALIVE. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; AFTERWARD THEY THAT ARE CHRIST'S AT HIS COMING.

OF THEM THAT SLEPT  YOU KNOW TENSES, RIGHT?   WHY SKIP IT ?   WHY NOT ADDRESS IT?  ISN'T IT A BLARING PROBLEM?

AND OF EVERYONE TO THEIR RANK OR PLACE,   UP UNTIL


AFTERWARD

WHICH    IS ABOUT THOSE WHO ARE ALIVE AND REMAINING. 


BUT EVERYONE WHO 'SLEEPS' BETWEEN THEN AND NOW GO TO THE PLACE HE HAS PREPARED FOR US.  YOU KNOW THE MANSION WITH THEM MANY ROOMS?  YOU KNOW WHEN HE COMES FOR US ON OUR LAST DAY  (FLESH DEATH)  AND TAKES US TO BE WITH HIM. 


OR DON'T YOU BELIEVE HE WENT TO PREPARE A PLACE FOR US?  

[DeighAnn]

7 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

NO!!! That is an illogical conclusion! Also, Paul didn't agree with you! Read on...

1 Corinthians 15:24-28 (KJV)

24 Then cometh the end (when there will be a SECOND General Resurrection), when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For HE MUST REIGN, TILL HE HATH PUT ALL ENEMIES UNDER HIS FEET. 26 THE LAST ENEMY THAT SHALL BE DESTROYED IS DEATH. 27 For he hath put all things under his feet. (But when he saith, "all things are put under him," it is manifest (obvious) that he (He) is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him , then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

Contrary to a LOT of fallible teaching, death was NOT defeated at the Cross! It may have been defeated for the MESSIAH, the CHRIST, but not for everyone! He shall destroy death at the END of the Millennium! That's what Paul said; that's what John said, and that's what Yeshua` Himself taught:

Revelation 20:11-15 (KJV)

11 And I saw a GREAT WHITE THRONE, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and THE DEAD WERE JUDGED out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And DEATH AND HELL WERE CAST INTO THE LAKE OF FIRE. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

John 5:25-29 (KJV)

25 "Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. 26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; 27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. 28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto THE RESURRECTION OF LIFE (at the Second Coming); and they that have done evil, unto THE RESURRECTION OF DAMNATION (at the Great White Throne Judgment)."

NO ONE IN THE BIBLE EVER TAUGHT THAT RESURRECTION OCCURS A LITTLE AT A TIME IN SOME FIGURATIVE SENSE!

IT ISN'T ME.  


WHEN DOES THIS TAKE PLACE?  AT THE END OF THE MILLENNIUM.  AT THE END OF THE LORDS DAY.  AT THE END, AFTER SATAN HAS BEEN LOOSED A SHORT SEASON.  

24 Then cometh the end (when there will be a SECOND General Resurrection), when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For HE MUST REIGN, TILL HE HATH PUT ALL ENEMIES UNDER HIS FEET. 26 THE LAST ENEMY THAT SHALL BE DESTROYED IS DEATH. 27 For he hath put all things under his feet. (But when he saith, "all things are put under him," it is manifest (obvious) that he (He) is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him , then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.


 

[DeighAnn]

7 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Contrary to a LOT of fallible teaching, death was NOT defeated at the Cross! It may have been defeated for the MESSIAH, the CHRIST, but not for everyone! He shall destroy death at the END of the Millennium! That's what Paul said; that's what John said, and that's what Yeshua` Himself taught:

Revelation 20:11-15 (KJV)

11 And I saw a GREAT WHITE THRONE, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and THE DEAD WERE JUDGED out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And DEATH AND HELL WERE CAST INTO THE LAKE OF FIRE. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

John 5:25-29 (KJV)

25 "Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. 26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; 27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. 28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto THE RESURRECTION OF LIFE (at the Second Coming); and they that have done evil, unto THE RESURRECTION OF DAMNATION (at the Great White Throne Judgment)."

NO ONE IN THE BIBLE EVER TAUGHT THAT RESURRECTION OCCURS A LITTLE AT A TIME IN SOME FIGURATIVE SENSE!

CHRIST RISEN FROM THE DEAD,

FOLLOWED BY 

THOSE WHO DIED UNDER THE LAW,

1Corinthians 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

1Corinthians 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

1Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

 

CHRIST RISEN, THOSE WHO SLEPT RISEN, THOSE WHO HAVE DIED UP UNTIL THE TIME HE RETURNS RISEN, 

AND THOSE WHO ARE ALIVE AND REMAIN RISEN AS THE LORDS DAY BEGINS

1Corinthians 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.


THE LORDS DAY ENDING WITH SATAN LOOSED

1Corinthians 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

THE GREAT THRONE JUDGMENT


THE POWER AND STING OF DEATH, DEATH IN SATANS CONTROL, DEATH WITHOUT RISING, THAT IS WHAT CHIST CHANGED.  THAT IS HOW HE LED THE CAPTIVE.  THAT IS WHY THEY CAME OUT OF THE GRAVES.  EVEN MORE PROOF THAT DEATH AND THE GRAVE DON'T HAVE THE POWER ANY MORE.  THAT


THIS VERSE IS ABSOLUTE TRUTH, NOT A WORD OF IT NEEDS TO BE EXPLAINED AWAY AS HAVING A DIFFERENT MEANING.  GOD WROTE EXACTLY AS GOD MEANT.  THERE IS NO OTHER MEANING THAN WHAT IS WRITTEN


For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again,

even so them also which sleep in Jesus

WILL GOD BRING WITH HIM.  



HAD CHRIST BEEN CRUCIFIED YET???  WHAT WAS BEING OFFERED AT THE TIME HE WALKED THE EARTH??  WHAT DID JOHN THE BAPTIST  SAY WAS COMING???

25 "Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. 26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; 27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. 28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto THE RESURRECTION OF LIFE (at the Second Coming); and they that have done evil, unto THE RESURRECTION OF DAMNATION (at the Great White Throne Judgment)."

THAT RESURRECTION OF LIFE THAT YOU STATE AS BEING THE SECOND COMING WOULD BE COMPLETELY  BE 

SKIPPING HIS DEATH AND RESURRECTION, IN WHICH THE GRAVES OPENED, WOULDN'T IT.  IT WOULD ALSO SKIP OVER 

THOSE WHO DIED UNDER THE 'LAW', WHO WERE TO BE TREATED THE SAME AS THOSE WHO WOULD DIE 'UNDER GRACE'. 

WHEN HE ROSE,  THEY ALSO ROSE, SOME RECEIVED THEIR IMMORTALITY/THE RIGHT SIDE OF THE GULF AND SOME STAYED MORTAL/LIABLE TO DIE/ THE WRONG SIDE OF THE GULF.  

THEY WILL BE RETURNING WITH CHRIST, WHEN THEY ARE BROUGHT BACK TO MEET THE 'ALIVE AND REMAINING'.  

[DeighAnn]

8 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

ALL DID die when Adam and Chavah fell! We all died at the EXACT SAME TIME! All of the Creation began to die and decay from that moment on!

IF only you would take

CHRISTS RISING to be MORE POWERFUL

than Adams death

[DeighAnn]

8 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

20 But now is CHRIST (the MESSIAH) risen from the dead, and become the FIRSTFRUITS of them that slept. 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so IN CHRIST SHALL ALL BE MADE ALIVE. (FUTURE TENSE!) 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; AFTERWARD THEY THAT ARE CHRIST'S AT HIS COMING.

YES, IT WOULD HAVE TO BE FUTURE WOULDN'T IT? 

WE MUST ALSO HAVE OUR FLESH DIE BEFORE WE ARE ABLE TO RISE. 

CAN'T RISE IN OUR SPIRITUAL BODIES UNTIL THAT HAPPENS.  

AND WHEN IT DOES

John 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

John 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

John 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

John 14:4 And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.

THIS ISN'T ABOUT THE 2ND COMING.  THIS IS ABOUT FROM THEN 

UNTIL

THE SECOND COMING

[DeighAnn]

8 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

He didn't DESTROY death at His death and resurrection; He CONQUERED it. There's a SIGNIFICANT DIFFERENCE!

Revelation 1:4-7 (KJV)

4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne; 5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, 6And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen. 7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

YES, THE FIRST

BEGOTTEN OF THE DEAD.   NOT THE ONLY.

THE FIRST OF THEM THAT SLEPT.  MEANING THEY SLEEP NO MORE 

AND THEY WILL BE RETURNING WITH HIM AS HE IS BRINGING THEM BACK

AT LEAST THAT IS WHAT IS WRITTEN, ISN'T IT. 




John 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

John 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

John 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

John 14:4 And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.

[Retrobyter]

22 hours ago, Whyme said:

I have debated the word agape. Some people teach that its godly love. This can't be however because the carnal pharasees had agape love for the best seats in the house.

Shalom, Whyme.

Well, "agapee" is a word that means "love," but there are other Greek words that mean "love," as well. I've checked by looking up the words "best seats" and they occur in four places in the three Synoptic Gospels: Matthew 23:6; Mark 12:39; Luke 11:43; and Luke 20:46.

Of the four, the ones that use "love" in the context of the English translations of the contexts of these verses for these "best seats" are: 

Matthew 23:1-12 (KJV)

1 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples, 2 Saying,

"The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: 3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not. 4 For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers. 5 But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments, 6 And LOVE the uppermost rooms at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues, 7 And greetings in the markets, and to be called of men, 'Rabbi, Rabbi.' 8 But be not ye called 'Rabbi': for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren. 9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven. 10 Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ. 11 But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant. 12 And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted."

The Greek of verse 6 is...

6 Filousin de teen prootoklisian en tois deipnois kai tas prootokathedrias en tais sunagoogais

The word translated "love" is "Filousin" which is a form of the word "fileoo," (often written "phileo" or "phileoo"). It's not the word "agapee" at all.

(Out of time. More to come.)

I should just like to add that I'm sorry that this topic has been hijacked such that I almost missed your post. I will try to get back to you this weekend.

Edited February 26, 2021 by Retrobyter

[Whyme]

27 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, Whyme.

Well, "agapee" is a word that means "love," but there are other Greek words that mean "love," as well. I've checked by looking up the words "best seats" and they occur in four places in the three Synoptic Gospels: Matthew 23:6; Mark 12:39; Luke 11:43; and Luke 20:46.

Of the four, the ones that use "love" in the context of the English translations of the contexts of these verses for these "best seats" are: 

Matthew 23:1-12 (KJV)

1 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples, 2 Saying,

"The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: 3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not. 4 For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers. 5 But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments, 6 And LOVE the uppermost rooms at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues, 7 And greetings in the markets, and to be called of men, 'Rabbi, Rabbi.' 8 But be not ye called 'Rabbi': for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren. 9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven. 10 Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ. 11 But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant. 12 And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted."

The Greek of verse 6 is...

6 Filousin de teen prootoklisian en tois deipnois kai tas prootokathedrias en tais sunagoogais

The word translated "love" is "Filousin" which is a form of the word "fileoo," (often written "phileo" or "phileoo"). It's not the word "agapee" at all.

(Out of time. More to come.)

I should just like to add that I'm sorry that this topic has been hijacked such that I almost missed your post. I will try to get back to you this weekend.

I'm on a phone and don't have software to look up passages in Greek. In one gospel at least it says the pharasees agaped the best seats in the house. I Can't log on with my pc because I have no net, or I would show you the scripture I'm talking about. I can't remember which scripture it was.

[Retrobyter]

16 hours ago, Whyme said:

I'm on a phone and don't have software to look up passages in Greek. In one gospel at least it says the pharasees agaped the best seats in the house. I Can't log on with my pc because I have no net, or I would show you the scripture I'm talking about. I can't remember which scripture it was.

Shalom, Whyme.

That's understandable. Biblehub.com has a phone app that does quite nicely. When you go into single-verse view (where you can select other versions of the Bible), one of the choices is to see Hebrew or Greek, depending on whether it's an OT verse or a NT verse. It's pretty good. I use it when I'm at work and there's a lull in the workload.

Just go into your App Store and type in "biblehub" in the search line. If it makes suggestions for you, it will pop up "BibleHub.com app" as one of the selections below. There's also an offline BibleHub program. So far, it's a free app that has access to Greek and Hebrew.

Edited February 26, 2021 by Retrobyter
for more info

[Whyme]

8 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, Whyme.

That's understandable. Biblehub.com has a phone app that does quite nicely. When you go into single-verse view (where you can select other versions), one of the choices is to see Hebrew or Greek, depending on whether it's an OT verse or a NT verse. It's pretty good. I use it when I'm at work and there's a lull in the workload.

Just go into your App Store and type in "biblehub." If it makes suggestions for you, it will pop up "BibleHub.com app" as one of the selections below. There's also an offline BibleHub program. So far, it's a free app that has access to Greek and Hebrew.

thank you.