Gradual fulfillment of Revelation?

[Last Daze]

13 hours ago, ByTheSpirit said:

A couple things I want to say about the pretrib rapture and my disagreement with it.

Lastly, the most irrefutable evidence there will be no pretribulation rapture is found in four locations actually, John 5:28-29, Revelation 20:4-6, 1 Corinthians 15:22-24, 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4.

While I agree in large part with your rationale, you're "bringing dialectic to an emotion fight" so to speak.

The five wise virgins were wise, not because they had a flawless eschatology, but because they acted on Jesus' teachings (Matthew 7).  He knew them because they kept His commandments. 

Godly wisdom will be required if we are to discern and persevere as the day approaches, regardless of our eschatology.

[Reinitin]

21 hours ago, Sojourner414 said:

Good points, Blueyedjewel.

One thing that seems to get ignored is that the entire Tribulation is the time of God's wrath, not just the "last half" or "bowl judgments:"

"I looked when He broke the sixth seal, and there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth made of hair, and the whole moon became like blood; and the stars of the sky fell to the earth, as a fig tree casts its unripe figs when shaken by a great wind. The sky was split apart like a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. Then the kings of the earth and the great men and the commanders and the rich and the strong and every slave and free man hid themselves in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains; and they said to the mountains and to the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the presence of Him who sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb; for the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to stand?” " (Revelation 6:12-17, NASB, emphasis mine)

Reading the entirety of Revelation 6, it is the Lamb who is opening the seals and thus initiating these judgments, not Satan or anyone else. And that is important to note in the face of the claim "God didn't rescue any believers from tribulation, persecutions or trouble in the past": those were not caused by God, but by man and by the sin nature that runs rampant on the planet. Sin has caused a great deal of harm not just to us, but to all of creation on earth as well. But in Rev 6, it shows that the 21 judgments are initiated by God (the Son) from the first scroll, to the last bowl.

That said, we read that we are not destined for wrath in Scripture in more than one place:

" ‘I know your deeds. Behold, I have put before you an open door which no one can shut, because you have a little power, and have kept My word, and have not denied My name. ‘Behold, I will cause those of the synagogue of Satan, who say that they are Jews and are not, but lie—I will make them come and bow down at your feet, and make them know that I have loved you. ‘Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth. ‘I am coming quickly; hold fast what you have, so that no one will take your crown. ‘He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he will not go out from it anymore; and I will write on him the name of My God, and the name of the city of My God, the new Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God, and My new name. ‘He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.’" (Revelation 3:8-13, NASB, emphasis mine)

Most on both sides of the debate are familiar with this passage, but Paul also states it in 1 Thessalonians:

"Now as to the times and the epochs, brethren, you have no need of anything to be written to you. For you yourselves know full well that the day of the Lord will come just like a thief in the night. While they are saying, “Peace and safety!” then destruction will come upon them suddenly like labor pains upon a woman with child, and they will not escape. But you, brethren, are not in darkness, that the day would overtake you like a thief; for you are all sons of light and sons of day. We are not of night nor of darkness; so then let us not sleep as others do, but let us be alert and sober. For those who sleep do their sleeping at night, and those who get drunk get drunk at night. But since we are of the day, let us be sober, having put on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet, the hope of salvation. For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, who died for us, so that whether we are awake or asleep, we will live together with Him. Therefore encourage one another and build up one another, just as you also are doing." (1 Thessalonians 5:1-11, NASB, emphasis mine)

Reading this, why would Paul say "God has not destined us for wrath" in a passage talking about the return of Jesus Christ? It can be claimed "that's just talking about Hell and not the Tribulation", but immediately after the verse "Then destruction will come upon them suddenly like labor pains upon a woman with child, and they will not escape. ", we read "But you, brethren, are not in darkness, that the day would overtake you like a thief;". Since Revelation indicates in chapter 13 that the Beast would "overcome the saints", one cannot really argue that they are not destroyed by the Antichrist. Not to mention that "God has not destined us for wrath" would mean that salvation has spared us from all  of God's wrath, not just select parts of it.

In other words: why would Paul mention about the Church not suffering wrath in a passage concerning the destruction of unbelievers in the "Day of the Lord", if the Church will go through it?

As to the part in Revelation 3: "I also will keep you from the hour of testing,";  a common argument is that "God will protect the Church during the Tribulation". But we find no evidence of that in Scripture; in fact, we find that especially in Revelation chapter 13, believers would suffer and "be overcome". So, how can God protect believers in the Tribulation if the word specifically states that they would suffer in it?

Either Scripture ends up broken here, or the Church is not there for it.

A few of other things I would like to address as well here:

1) "God didn't spare believers in the past from trouble": although I already addressed this in part, another thing to consider as well is this: those believers who have died in ages past already escaped the Tribulation! God's not going to resurrect them to go through it! And just as it is argued that "why would one specific generation of the church escape the tribulation?",  I would have to counter with "why would one specific generation of the Church have to endure it?"

The question cuts both ways.

2) "Pre-Trib believers just want an "easy way out": I've heard this one many times, and just wanted to point out a couple of issues with this line of thinking: 1) Once the Rapture happens, anything left undone or unsaid on earth by a believer is totally closed. That means anything we didn't do or say then will not count at the Bema Seat when we appear before the Lord. Any opportunity to witness to lost loved ones, people we care about or anyone else will be gone, and any ability to earn crowns or rewards will be over. I don't consider that to be an "easy out", as there is only one evaluation of believers in eternity that Scripture speaks of. 2) Has it occurred to the opponents of the Pre-Trib Rapture that it is not so much of an escape than that it is the Lord coming for what is rightfully His? The Lord deserves each and every single believer that trusts in Him, from the Apostles all the through history to the everyday man or woman trusting in Him today.

The Lord deserves His Bride, and has a right to get her when He wants.

3) In a war, you don't leave your ambassadors on a battlefield: Before a sovereign nation declares war on another, one of the last things they will do is to break off diplomatic relations. In the case of mankind, the only "ambassador" man has to God is the Lord Jesus Christ. That being the case, the "diplomatic effort" is pretty much one-sided, with God having to make the effort to provide ambassadors to the Earth (in this case, the Church). Once the Father decides that "it is time", relations will be broken off; all man will have is the Word of God until the Lord appoints the 144,000, sends the Two Witnesses, and the Angel having the "everlasting Gospel". But those will happen during  the Tribulation, and will not  be the Church.

The Tribulation is God's War on Earth; not  half of the Tribulation or just the end.

ALL of it, Scroll to Bowls.

-Sojo414

 

I see alot of things you say in your post that make me go Huh? Why did you use Rev 6. Rev 6 clearly disputes the truth of what your saying.

The lamb has already opened four seals. God is not a respector of persons. His ways are not our ways and his thoughts are not our thoughts. It seems you are trying to defend a biblical ideology with human phsycology and projecting your own fears on all those who may be Filled with the Spirit and fearlessly proclaiming the Salvation of God through Christ to a dieing world. Their blessed hope is not in escape its in Christ Jesus to save. How can you kill someone who aready counts themself as dead and alive in Christ and walking by his Spirit?

People who know if they are killed they won't be among the dead gathered from the earth and the seas for the last judgement. When there body is stopped they will be in the house of LORD with the living, with their brethern who are also written in the lambs book of life. It is the book of the livinh, those who have eternal life and they are present when the Lord opens the seals.

The whole phycology of people are full of self intrest and trying to be purified by suffering is also a phsycology idiology. I know the Lord never leaves or forsakes us and until God fills his house with that last soul and shuts the door people can still be written in the lambs book of life and The Lord will provide for all of those he has chosen to testify and die in the great tribulation who do not love their own life unto death.

plus some of the seal results are also conditions the earth is in from the trumpets and viles.

Another thing about you phycology ideology is; It is a judgment of God. unloving God burning your baby? I hate to say it but God takes those thing that are intended for evil and uses it for good towards those who love him. The way pre tribers talk about how horible God would be if he doesn't wisk you away before you face tribulation. I could see people with that judgment against God shaking there fist at him and cursing him in tribulation

Our God can walk with us in flames and not even the smell of smoke can cling to our garment.

Send birds with food for us.

Cause no sickness to come near us.

And he can lead us in darkness.

The Fifth Seal

⁹ When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the people^[o]slaughtered because of God’s word and the testimony they had.^[p]10 They cried out with a loud voice: “Lord,^[q] the One who is holy and true, how long until You judge and avenge our blood from those who live on the earth?” ¹¹ So a white robe was given to each of them, and they were told to rest a little while longer until the number would be completed of their fellow slaves and their brothers, who were going to be killed just as they had been.

Edited August 7, 2017 by Reinitin

[Guest]

48 minutes ago, Reinitin said:

The lamb has already opened four seals

I know that I stated that I wouldnt debate but I just cant help myself!

For someone who stated that she is weak in end times prophecy,you sure do have some strong opinions on it!  It absolutely ludicrous to say that 4 seals have already been opened! Speaking of leaning on your own understanding

 

 It is apparent by your own words that you do not understand the magnitude of  the WRATH OF GOD  in a time like none other or that  what is happening around you  is NOT  end time JUDGEMENT since you did say 4 seals have already happened! . God doesnt JUDGE his saints in the "70th week of Daniel" .

1 Thess 5:9For God has not appointed us to suffer wrath,but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ

 

Proverbs 16:4The LORD has made everything for its own purpose, Even the wicked for the day of evil.

 

2 Peter 3:7 But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.

 

The LORD will  judge Israel  and the "earth dwellers".  The church is not mentioned at all after rev 3.The church is conspicuously absent until rev 19.  Why? Because the church age has ended!  The tribulation ie judgement is  when God deals with  the unbelieving Jews and the wicked deniers of Christ!

The martyred saints [ the ones whose robes were not white when Christ raptured his remnant. Some were of just a godly appearance and some were  deniers of Christ until they saw the LORD come in the air] are taken  ref: Rev 7.

Revelation 3:10
Because you have kept My command to endure with patience, I will also keep you from the hour of testing that is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth. { earth dwellers mentioned all throughout the tribulation}

 

 

 

 

Rev 1: 7Behold,He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see Him — even those who pierced Him.And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. So shall it be! Amen.

 

Where all the people who saw Christ come for his church? Are people repenting and mourning because they have not believed  all along? Where are the JEWS that are mourning ?  

Zechariah 12:10
"I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the Spirit of grace and of supplication, so that they will look on Me whom they have pierced; and they will mourn for Him, as one mourns for an only son, and they will weep bitterly over Him like the bitter weeping over a firstborn.

Matthew 16:27
For the Son of Man will come in His Father's glory with His angels, and then He will repay each one according to what he has done.

 

7. with clouds—Greek, "the clouds," namely, of heaven. "A cloud received Him out of their sight" at His ascension (Ac 1:9). His ascension corresponds to the manner of His coming again (Ac 1:11). Clouds are the symbols of wrath to sinners.

 

The worlds sinners ie earth dwellers!  I am a new creation in Christ! I am a saint!   

 

1st Seal - Rider on the white horse = antichrist

 

Tell me who the antichrist is! Since he is already known, you should be able to tell me his name! 

 

2nd Seal - Rider on the red horse = Peace taken from the earth so that men kill each other

 

Peace is not gone! The church is STILL here! 

3rd Seal - Rider on the black horse = world-wide famine represented by the fact that a small amount of food will cost a days wages.

 

Last I checked, it cost me about 4 or 5 bucks for a loaf of bread!  Even the poorest of people on minimum wage make  about 50 bucks a day.  50 does not equal  4 or 5

I havent seen on the news that the world is in a famine either! 

4th Seal - Pale green horse = Death and Hades who are given power over earth to kill a fourth of the worlds population via war, famine, disease and by the wild beasts of the earth. Based on the current population of 7 billion, a four would equal approx. 1.7 billion people at the beginning of that last seven year period.
 

 Have we had 1/4 of the earth wiped away in one fell swoop? Apprx 1.7 people died?! 

Where was I? How in the world did I miss THAT?!  I must have been napping.

 

I provided you with alot of information to consider in my very long entailed post! It appears that  you did not consider it at all.  Thats very disappointing . Somehow with your "weakest subject", you have more knowledge than those who have been studying end times prophecy for years!!  I wonder  how you are able to question anything about end times prophecy with wisdom from the scriptures since you  really havent studied. Interesting.

 

"Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is near."

 

I read where  you said to someone else on this thread that we need to bring scripture to back up our opinions. It is advisable for us to do as we say so that we are not considered a hypocrite. Also, lets pray that we are rightly dividing the precious prophecy that the LORD has given us and we post scripture that is applicable to the reality.

 

Blessings  

 

[Reinitin]

18 hours ago, Blueyedjewel said:

There is no comparison! Man doing evil to saints which btw is happening to this very day ie beheadings versus Gods wrath on the wicked who deny his son. Scripture states that it is a time like never before nor will there ever be a time like it. GODS WRATH

I guess it is a matter of perspective. I dont see the great tribulation as Gods Wrath I see it as man reaping what they sowed.

In the opening of the fifth seal, rev 6 I see  the Lords people still on this earth proclaming the judgement of God coming and salvation in Christ to the dieing world and dieing for their testimony. I see God shutting the door of the temple with all those in Christ (every last soul that would be saved) the heavens and earth flee and he calls forth the dead from the earth and the seas. The dead are all those whos names are not written in the lambs book of life. The body of Christ is alive and with Christ we wont be part of his wrath and judgement. When we leave our body at death we are present with the Lord. 

So If I am alive and the Lord takes me before the white horse then Amen. If the Lord wills I stand and proclaim Christ resulting in my beheading. Amen im with Christ. If the Lord snathes me up at the last trumpet in a twinkle if an eye before the heavens and earth disappear, Amen. My life is not my own i was bought for a price. I pray I am busy doing his will and have his peace no matter what the circumstances in the world are. no matter what or when or how i will be with him and no matter what or when Christ is in me to help me accomplish Gods will till i am face to face with My Lord.

[Reinitin]

23 minutes ago, Blueyedjewel said:

I know that I stated that I wouldnt debate but I just cant help myself!

For someone who stated that she is weak in end times prophecy,you sure do have some strong opinions on it!  It absolutely ludicrous to say that 4 seals have already been opened! Speaking of leaning on your own understanding

 

 It is apparent by your own words that you do not understand the magnitude of  the WRATH OF GOD  in a time like none other or that  what is happening around you  is NOT  end time JUDGEMENT since you did say 4 seals have already happened! . God doesnt JUDGE his saints in the "70th week of Daniel" .

1 Thess 5:9For God has not appointed us to suffer wrath,but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ

 

Proverbs 16:4The LORD has made everything for its own purpose, Even the wicked for the day of evil.

 

2 Peter 3:7 But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.

 

The LORD will  judge Israel  and the "earth dwellers".  The church is not mentioned at all after rev 3.The church is conspicuously absent until rev 19.  Why? Because the church age has ended!  The tribulation ie judgement is  when God deals with  the unbelieving Jews and the wicked deniers of Christ!

The martyred saints [ the ones whose robes were not white when Christ raptured his remnant. Some were of just a godly appearance and some were  deniers of Christ until they saw the LORD come in the air] are taken  ref: Rev 7.

Revelation 3:10
Because you have kept My command to endure with patience, I will also keep you from the hour of testing that is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth. { earth dwellers mentioned all throughout the tribulation}

 

 

 

 

Rev 1: 7Behold,He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see Him — even those who pierced Him.And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. So shall it be! Amen.

 

Where all the people who saw Christ come for his church? Are people repenting and mourning because they have not believed  all along? Where are the JEWS that are mourning ?  

Zechariah 12:10
"I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the Spirit of grace and of supplication, so that they will look on Me whom they have pierced; and they will mourn for Him, as one mourns for an only son, and they will weep bitterly over Him like the bitter weeping over a firstborn.

Matthew 16:27
For the Son of Man will come in His Father's glory with His angels, and then He will repay each one according to what he has done.

 

7. with clouds—Greek, "the clouds," namely, of heaven. "A cloud received Him out of their sight" at His ascension (Ac 1:9). His ascension corresponds to the manner of His coming again (Ac 1:11). Clouds are the symbols of wrath to sinners.

 

The worlds sinners ie earth dwellers!  I am a new creation in Christ! I am a saint!   

 

1st Seal - Rider on the white horse = antichrist

 

Tell me who the antichrist is! Since he is already known, you should be able to tell me his name! 

 

2nd Seal - Rider on the red horse = Peace taken from the earth so that men kill each other

 

Peace is not gone! The church is STILL here! 

3rd Seal - Rider on the black horse = world-wide famine represented by the fact that a small amount of food will cost a days wages.

 

Last I checked, it cost me about 4 or 5 bucks for a loaf of bread!  Even the poorest of people on minimum wage make  about 50 bucks a day.  50 does not equal  4 or 5

I havent seen on the news that the world is in a famine either! 

4th Seal - Pale green horse = Death and Hades who are given power over earth to kill a fourth of the worlds population via war, famine, disease and by the wild beasts of the earth. Based on the current population of 7 billion, a four would equal approx. 1.7 billion people at the beginning of that last seven year period.
 

 Have we had 1/4 of the earth wiped away in one fell swoop? Apprx 1.7 people died?! 

Where was I? How in the world did I miss THAT?!  I must have been napping.

 

I provided you with alot of information to consider in my very long entailed post! It appears that  you did not consider it at all.  Thats very disappointing . Somehow with your "weakest subject", you have more knowledge than those who have been studying end times prophecy for years!!  I wonder  how you are able to question anything about end times prophecy with wisdom from the scriptures since you  really havent studied. Interesting.

 

"Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is near."

 

I read where  you said to someone else on this thread that we need to bring scripture to back up our opinions. It is advisable for us to do as we say so that we are not considered a hypocrite. Also, lets pray that we are rightly dividing the precious prophecy that the LORD has given us and we post scripture that is applicable to the reality.

 

Blessings  

 

I dont have opinions except they Word is Trueth. You cant tell me saints are not present at the 1st seal and give be some phsycology rationalization when the Word says we are on the earth and our brothers and sisters are waiting with the Lorf for us to be killed for our testimony at the 5th seal.

How do you give the 5th seal in context as much authority as you give your justifying scriptures out of context and explain it into you speculation of end time events? do you just throw it away cause it contradicts what you say?

Edited August 7, 2017 by Reinitin

[Reinitin]

34 minutes ago, Blueyedjewel said:

I know that I stated that I wouldnt debate but I just cant help myself!

For someone who stated that she is weak in end times prophecy,you sure do have some strong opinions on it!  It absolutely ludicrous to say that 4 seals have already been opened! Speaking of leaning on your own understanding

 

 It is apparent by your own words that you do not understand the magnitude of  the WRATH OF GOD  in a time like none other or that  what is happening around you  is NOT  end time JUDGEMENT since you did say 4 seals have already happened! . God doesnt JUDGE his saints in the "70th week of Daniel" .

1 Thess 5:9For God has not appointed us to suffer wrath,but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ

 

Proverbs 16:4The LORD has made everything for its own purpose, Even the wicked for the day of evil.

 

2 Peter 3:7 But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.

 

The LORD will  judge Israel  and the "earth dwellers".  The church is not mentioned at all after rev 3.The church is conspicuously absent until rev 19.  Why? Because the church age has ended!  The tribulation ie judgement is  when God deals with  the unbelieving Jews and the wicked deniers of Christ!

The martyred saints [ the ones whose robes were not white when Christ raptured his remnant. Some were of just a godly appearance and some were  deniers of Christ until they saw the LORD come in the air] are taken  ref: Rev 7.

Revelation 3:10
Because you have kept My command to endure with patience, I will also keep you from the hour of testing that is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth. { earth dwellers mentioned all throughout the tribulation}

 

 

 

 

Rev 1: 7Behold,He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see Him — even those who pierced Him.And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. So shall it be! Amen.

 

Where all the people who saw Christ come for his church? Are people repenting and mourning because they have not believed  all along? Where are the JEWS that are mourning ?  

Zechariah 12:10
"I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the Spirit of grace and of supplication, so that they will look on Me whom they have pierced; and they will mourn for Him, as one mourns for an only son, and they will weep bitterly over Him like the bitter weeping over a firstborn.

Matthew 16:27
For the Son of Man will come in His Father's glory with His angels, and then He will repay each one according to what he has done.

 

7. with clouds—Greek, "the clouds," namely, of heaven. "A cloud received Him out of their sight" at His ascension (Ac 1:9). His ascension corresponds to the manner of His coming again (Ac 1:11). Clouds are the symbols of wrath to sinners.

 

The worlds sinners ie earth dwellers!  I am a new creation in Christ! I am a saint!   

 

1st Seal - Rider on the white horse = antichrist

 

Tell me who the antichrist is! Since he is already known, you should be able to tell me his name! 

 

2nd Seal - Rider on the red horse = Peace taken from the earth so that men kill each other

 

Peace is not gone! The church is STILL here! 

3rd Seal - Rider on the black horse = world-wide famine represented by the fact that a small amount of food will cost a days wages.

 

Last I checked, it cost me about 4 or 5 bucks for a loaf of bread!  Even the poorest of people on minimum wage make  about 50 bucks a day.  50 does not equal  4 or 5

I havent seen on the news that the world is in a famine either! 

4th Seal - Pale green horse = Death and Hades who are given power over earth to kill a fourth of the worlds population via war, famine, disease and by the wild beasts of the earth. Based on the current population of 7 billion, a four would equal approx. 1.7 billion people at the beginning of that last seven year period.
 

 Have we had 1/4 of the earth wiped away in one fell swoop? Apprx 1.7 people died?! 

Where was I? How in the world did I miss THAT?!  I must have been napping.

 

I provided you with alot of information to consider in my very long entailed post! It appears that  you did not consider it at all.  Thats very disappointing . Somehow with your "weakest subject", you have more knowledge than those who have been studying end times prophecy for years!!  I wonder  how you are able to question anything about end times prophecy with wisdom from the scriptures since you  really havent studied. Interesting.

 

"Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is near."

 

I read where  you said to someone else on this thread that we need to bring scripture to back up our opinions. It is advisable for us to do as we say so that we are not considered a hypocrite. Also, lets pray that we are rightly dividing the precious prophecy that the LORD has given us and we post scripture that is applicable to the reality.

 

Blessings  

 

i havent figured out how to cut little part but rev7 does not say what you said. they sealed 144000. you think God loves them less? you say we escape because we arnt appointed to wrath and you so sad people cant see they are in christ and he would be a cruel God if we were kept in the great tribulation. Well what about this 144.000 inocents, virgins, never knelt to idold?

Then the multitude they came out of the tribulation. no where does it segregate them as an undecided group.

[Reinitin]

45 minutes ago, Blueyedjewel said:

I know that I stated that I wouldnt debate but I just cant help myself!

For someone who stated that she is weak in end times prophecy,you sure do have some strong opinions on it!  It absolutely ludicrous to say that 4 seals have already been opened! Speaking of leaning on your own understanding

 

 It is apparent by your own words that you do not understand the magnitude of  the WRATH OF GOD  in a time like none other or that  what is happening around you  is NOT  end time JUDGEMENT since you did say 4 seals have already happened! . God doesnt JUDGE his saints in the "70th week of Daniel" .

1 Thess 5:9For God has not appointed us to suffer wrath,but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ

 

Proverbs 16:4The LORD has made everything for its own purpose, Even the wicked for the day of evil.

 

2 Peter 3:7 But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.

 

The LORD will  judge Israel  and the "earth dwellers".  The church is not mentioned at all after rev 3.The church is conspicuously absent until rev 19.  Why? Because the church age has ended!  The tribulation ie judgement is  when God deals with  the unbelieving Jews and the wicked deniers of Christ!

The martyred saints [ the ones whose robes were not white when Christ raptured his remnant. Some were of just a godly appearance and some were  deniers of Christ until they saw the LORD come in the air] are taken  ref: Rev 7.

Revelation 3:10
Because you have kept My command to endure with patience, I will also keep you from the hour of testing that is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth. { earth dwellers mentioned all throughout the tribulation}

 

 

 

 

Rev 1: 7Behold,He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see Him — even those who pierced Him.And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. So shall it be! Amen.

 

Where all the people who saw Christ come for his church? Are people repenting and mourning because they have not believed  all along? Where are the JEWS that are mourning ?  

Zechariah 12:10
"I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the Spirit of grace and of supplication, so that they will look on Me whom they have pierced; and they will mourn for Him, as one mourns for an only son, and they will weep bitterly over Him like the bitter weeping over a firstborn.

Matthew 16:27
For the Son of Man will come in His Father's glory with His angels, and then He will repay each one according to what he has done.

 

7. with clouds—Greek, "the clouds," namely, of heaven. "A cloud received Him out of their sight" at His ascension (Ac 1:9). His ascension corresponds to the manner of His coming again (Ac 1:11). Clouds are the symbols of wrath to sinners.

 

The worlds sinners ie earth dwellers!  I am a new creation in Christ! I am a saint!   

 

1st Seal - Rider on the white horse = antichrist

 

Tell me who the antichrist is! Since he is already known, you should be able to tell me his name! 

 

2nd Seal - Rider on the red horse = Peace taken from the earth so that men kill each other

 

Peace is not gone! The church is STILL here! 

3rd Seal - Rider on the black horse = world-wide famine represented by the fact that a small amount of food will cost a days wages.

 

Last I checked, it cost me about 4 or 5 bucks for a loaf of bread!  Even the poorest of people on minimum wage make  about 50 bucks a day.  50 does not equal  4 or 5

I havent seen on the news that the world is in a famine either! 

4th Seal - Pale green horse = Death and Hades who are given power over earth to kill a fourth of the worlds population via war, famine, disease and by the wild beasts of the earth. Based on the current population of 7 billion, a four would equal approx. 1.7 billion people at the beginning of that last seven year period.
 

 Have we had 1/4 of the earth wiped away in one fell swoop? Apprx 1.7 people died?! 

Where was I? How in the world did I miss THAT?!  I must have been napping.

 

I provided you with alot of information to consider in my very long entailed post! It appears that  you did not consider it at all.  Thats very disappointing . Somehow with your "weakest subject", you have more knowledge than those who have been studying end times prophecy for years!!  I wonder  how you are able to question anything about end times prophecy with wisdom from the scriptures since you  really havent studied. Interesting.

 

"Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is near."

 

I read where  you said to someone else on this thread that we need to bring scripture to back up our opinions. It is advisable for us to do as we say so that we are not considered a hypocrite. Also, lets pray that we are rightly dividing the precious prophecy that the LORD has given us and we post scripture that is applicable to the reality.

 

Blessings  

 

The great and terrible day of the Lord is when He Judges the dead its terrable for them. 

To Those in the lambs book of life it is a great day in the kingdom of our Lord. 

So when you take the judgment scriptures and apply them to the tribulation that brings all the nations under the authority of Christ and removes the influance of Satan you loose me. scriptures out of context are just cons.

[Reinitin]

I have a question to clarify cause I think the time of jacobs sorrows, the great tribulation and The Day Of The Lord are three completely different prophetic apointments. It looks like some of you are mixing the scripture to be one event. Like applying scriptures promises about the day of the Lord to the great tribulation. do ya'll think they are all one appointment? where are the scriptures that say a promise to not face wrath on the day of the Lord is a promise you wont see jacobs sorrows or the great tribulation?

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Reinitin said:

I guess it is a matter of perspective. I dont see the great tribulation as Gods Wrath I see it as man reaping what they sowed.

Perspective without studying? Oh ok!

Strong's Concordance

thlipsis: tribulation

Original Word: θλῖψις, εως, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: thlipsis
Phonetic Spelling: (thlip'-sis)
Short Definition: persecution, affliction, distress
Definition: persecution, affliction, distress, tribulation.

HELPS Word-studies

2347 thlípsis – properly, pressure (what constricts or rubs together), used of a narrow place that "hems someone in"; tribulation, especially internal pressurethat causes someone to feel confined (restricted, "without options").

2347 /thlípsis ("compression, tribulation") carries the challenge of coping with the internal pressure of a tribulation, especially when feeling there is "no way of escape" ("hemmed in").

 

Tribulation is JUDGEMENT.

[Daniel 11:36]

Reinitin is absolutely correct

The current dispensation of grace will be over and all of the Lord's own will be made immortal .... the tribulation period will be a short one and some of those who live in the tribulation will turn to the Lord

Those that do will either be persecuted, killed, and resurrected at the end of the tribulation and those that survive will enter the Lord's millennial kingdom as mortals [Matthew 25:31-40; Revelation 20:1-4] 

Edited August 7, 2017 by Daniel 11:36