Something about the book of thessalonians and death

[Dennis1209]

Wish this thread topic came along a couple of months ago!

Was at Wednesday Bible study and the pastor mentioned spirit and soul, and without even thinking, I blurted out, what's the difference between the spirit and soul? The pastor said good question, I really can't answer that, do your research and let all of us know at next Wednesdays Bible study. Now, my tongue usually bleeds from biting it so hard so I don't ask questions anymore 

So I did my diligent research and checked a variety of expositions, commentaries, 1828 Noah Webster Dictionary, etc. Probably the best explanations I found were written by some of the early church fathers. Some of you are right on target on what I discovered.

[BobRyan]

The Body does not "sleep" except each night when we sleep. At death the body is annihilated - returns to dust. It is the spirit to that goes to God at death - and it goes in a dormant form.

1 Thess 4 calls it sleep... so also does Christ say it in John 11.

[Reinitin]

On 8/17/2017 at 7:40 AM, Pudgenik said:

Two things come to my mind. 1 the Greatest Comandent  2 we are created in the image of God

made into his likeness. What is the diffrence between image and likeness?

[Pudgenik]

10 hours ago, Reinitin said:

made into his likeness. What is the diffrence between image and likeness?

I didn't have time to expand on my thoughts when I wrote that.

In The Greatest Commandment, Jesus tells us to love God with all your heart, with all your mind, with all your spirit and with all your strength. If each of these parts is significant enough for Jesus to mention. Then each of these must be more than just a mere word. Each is something unique. Something that the whole self cannot be without. Like a candle requires three parts, or it isn't a candle.

And being created in the image of God, a trinity within ourselves. Heart, mind, spirit.

Heart, being the soul.

[Willa]

1Pe 1:7  that the proof of your faith, which is more precious than gold that perishes even though it is tested by fire, may be found to result in praise, glory, and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ—

1Pe 1:8  whom not having known you love; in whom, though now you don’t see him, yet believing, you rejoice greatly with joy unspeakable and full of glory—

1Pe 1:9  receiving the result of your faith, the salvation of your souls.

[Sower]

Interesting. I suppose the brain then is flesh. A person can be "brain dead" but the body can still be living. If the brain is dead, what happens to the mind? Is it dead also? Does the mind reside within the brain? Is it just hanging out there? I thought it did, based upon influences upon the brain that affect the mind IE, Autism, Alzheimer's,  insanity, etc. Or insanity of the mind, within a healthy brain? That indicates to me, the mind is fleshly, subject to disease or trauma. We (A living person) cannot function without a mind. (Although we sometimes lose our minds, and function terribly)) We use it to think, as I now use it to move my fingers on the keyboard to express "my thoughts" in my mind. If the mind is part of the brain, then it cannot be part of the soul, nor can it ascend to heavenly places, where no corruptible flesh is allowed. I don't think the soul is of the flesh. So where is the mind, really?  Giller said; It is the soul that makes  us an individual, and that is were the will, mind and emotions are.That is were we do our decision making. I always sorta believed that, also. But how could our mind be within our soul, and our emotions are somewhat genetic, thus flesh? The soul goes to heaven, so does the mind stay in the flesh? Scans can see brain activity in different lobes, based upon various stimulus, such as questions, which use the mind, and show up on the scan. .Do we also get a new "heavenly"mind?

[Reinitin]

11 hours ago, Gary Lee said:

Interesting. I suppose the brain then is flesh. A person can be "brain dead" but the body can still be living. If the brain is dead, what happens to the mind? Is it dead also? Does the mind reside within the brain? Is it just hanging out there? I thought it did, based upon influences upon the brain that affect the mind IE, Autism, Alzheimer's,  insanity, etc. Or insanity of the mind, within a healthy brain? That indicates to me, the mind is fleshly, subject to disease or trauma. We (A living person) cannot function without a mind. (Although we sometimes lose our minds, and function terribly)) We use it to think, as I now use it to move my fingers on the keyboard to express "my thoughts" in my mind. If the mind is part of the brain, then it cannot be part of the soul, nor can it ascend to heavenly places, where no corruptible flesh is allowed. I don't think the soul is of the flesh. So where is the mind, really?  Giller said; It is the soul that makes  us an individual, and that is were the will, mind and emotions are.That is were we do our decision making. I always sorta believed that, also. But how could our mind be within our soul, and our emotions are somewhat genetic, thus flesh? The soul goes to heaven, so does the mind stay in the flesh? Scans can see brain activity in different lobes, based upon various stimulus, such as questions, which use the mind, and show up on the scan. .Do we also get a new "heavenly"mind?

uncoruptable mind yes:)

[BobRyan]

On 8/19/2017 at 1:24 AM, Giller said:

Once a Christian dies of course, both his soul and spirit goes to heaven.
 

 

For ALL mankind

Eccl 12:7

7 Then the dust will return to the earth as it was,
      And the spirit will return to God who gave it.

"into thy hands I commit My Spirit" as both Christ and Stephen say at their death.

 

Luke 23:46 And Jesus, crying out with a loud voice, said, “Father, into Your hands I commit My spirit.” Having said this, He breathed His last.

Acts 7:59 They went on stoning Stephen as he called on the Lord and said, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit!”

 

 

However in the case of Stephen and Abraham we know from Christ's words in Matt 22 "God is not the God of the dead" - which means that for the dormant soul/spirit "there is no

thought activity

Ps 146:

2 I will sing praises to my God while I have my being.

3 do not trust in princes, in mortal man, in whom there is no salvation.

4 his spirit departs, he returns to the earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.

5 how blessed is he whose help is the God of Jacob,

 

Ecclesiasties 9:5-6 they have no activity

5 For the living know that they will die;
      But the dead know nothing,
      And they have no more reward,
      For the memory of them is forgotten.
       6 Also their love, their hatred, and their envy have now perished;
      Nevermore will they have a share
      In anything done under the sun.

 

Hence: Praise to God - ceases at death  "God is not the God of the dead"

Ps 115:17 the dead do not praise the Lord, nor do any who go down into silence;

18 but as for us, we will bless the lord from this time forth and forever. Praise the lord!

 

No thanks or praise to God given by those that are dead.

 

Is 38:18 “for sheol cannot thank you, death cannot praise you; those who go down to the pit cannot hope for your faithfulness.

19 “it is the living who give thanks to you, as I do today;

 

No memory of God

Ps 6:5 for there is no mention of you in death; in sheol who will give you thanks?

 

(Ps 30:9 yet clearly when the living worship we "worship in spirit" John 4:24 - )

 

Isaiah 38

  18"For Sheol cannot thank You,
         Death cannot praise You;
         Those who go down to the pit cannot hope for Your faithfulness.
    19"It is the living who give thanks to You, as I do today;
         A father tells his sons about Your faithfulness. 

 

Those are examples of texts that in context intend to deal directly with what activity is available to you while dead.

 

Hence: This is why in Matt 22 Christ insists that "God is NOT the god of the Dead". Because in the state of death the PERSON -- is asleep "Lazarus Sleeps" not "Lazarus' decaying body sleeps instead of decaying"

 

Matt 22:23-34 Christ insists that “God is not the God of the dead”  To prove the doctrine of the resurrection.

 

================================================

And our focus is entirely on the 2nd coming and resurrection of the dead where "the dead in Christ rise first" 1 Thess 4... that is "those who have fallen asleep in Jesus"

1 Peter 1
13 Therefore, prepare your minds for action, keep sober in spirit, fix your hope completely on the grace to be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ.

Phil 3
10 that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death; 11 in order that I may attain to the resurrection from the dead.

2 Tim 4
I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by His appearing and His kingdom:
...
6 For I am already being poured out as a drink offering, and the time of my departure has come. 7 I have fought the good fight, I have finished the course, I have kept the faith; 8 in the future there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day; and not only to me, but also to all who have loved His appearing.

[Your closest friendnt]

I eccleisiastis we see the comfusion of the Author, surely the High Priest and the prophets never endorsed his saying, or before I say something about that, he speaks like all of the people till his time did not know what happened to people when they die. Like we needed his wisdom to tell us something we know from the beginning, that the corps of the person, like the carcas of the animals becomes dust, and not all the time, it also becomes Ash if the corps is burned, which he did not say, and perhaps food for the beast, or the birds, and sometimes alive. 

The Priests and the prophets never endorsed his saying that the spirit man, the individual who lives in the body goes to God. 

The Priests and the prophets knew that's not truth. 

They knew that they cannot be with their Lord whether alive or dead, that he is Holy and they are not, that he has Life, and they had dead. 

And they knew that they are going to the place of the dead when they die, and they knew that the place of the dead is not in Heaven with God but in Seol. 

I guess the Author didn't like the fact about the truth, it didn'take him feel good, but he found out anyway, that his father King David who was a prophet knew the truth and not him, 

His Father who died with the hope that even though he will go to Seol, in the heart of the Earth, his Lord God will not leave him their for ever, but as the CHRIST he will descent after his death also there and give him life and take him to Heaven. 

No one ever went to God before JESUS CHRIST, after they died, no one. 

They all descended Jews or Gentiles, Abel or Adam...

[BobRyan]

18 hours ago, Your closest friendnt said:

I eccleisiastis we see the comfusion of the Author,

 

1 Tim 3:16 "ALL scripture is given by inspiration from God AND is to be used for doctrine"

2 Peter 1:20-21 "NO scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation  - but holy men of old moved by by Holy Spirit - spoke from God"

 

Jesus said "into Thy hands I commit My spirit"

Stephen said "receive my spirit".

Ecclesiastes also states it "the spirit goes to God" at death.

 

But as 1Thess 4 points it - it is in a dormant state -- for those who "fall asleep in Jesus"