convert or disciple?

[Robert William]

1 minute ago, Reinitin said:

Did God destroy man kind? Our grant and age of grace for the full number of gentiles?

 All Israel was not forgiven every year the priest offered the blood of a perfect lamb without spot or blemish for attonement of sin. They just were not destoyed under the weight of sin when they offered the blood but didn't repent a remenant was saved but many were led into captivity. God still opened the books after the 40 day of repentence and put who repented and who didn't in the books. Each Individualy by their own works. just cause you dont understand something of God or can't explain it has no effect on if it is true or not.

The Old is obsolete, we are now in the New.

Heb 8:6  But as it is, Christ has obtained a ministry that is as much more excellent than the old as the covenant he mediates is better, since it is enacted on better promises.
Heb 8:7  For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion to look for a second.
Heb 8:8  For he finds fault with them when he says: "Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will establish a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah,
Heb 8:9  not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt. For they did not continue in my covenant, and so I showed no concern for them, declares the Lord.
Heb 8:10  For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my laws into their minds, and write them on their hearts, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Heb 8:11  And they shall not teach, each one his neighbor and each one his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,' for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest.
Heb 8:12  For I will be merciful toward their iniquities, and I will remember their sins no more."
Heb 8:13  In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

 

[Robert William]

2 minutes ago, Yowm said:

They are only forgiven as they look to Jesus. Moses had the serpent lifted up in the wilderness for ALL the Israelites, but only those that looked to the brazen serpent were healed.

Apart from Scripture it is only subjective guesswork.

I know from Scripture because Jesus died for ALL, He therefore died for me.

Why do they need to look to Jesus for the forgiveness of sins if they are already forgiven??

[Reinitin]

14 minutes ago, Yowm said:

Jonah 2:9 KJVS
[9] But I will sacrifice unto thee with the voice of thanksgiving; I will pay that that I have vowed. Salvation is of the Lord .

John 1:12-13 KJVS
[12] But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: [13] Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

 

 

but there are 2 teachings on actual convertion neither is clearly addressed in scripture. one is that converstion is the born again process by Gods Spirit which would be Gods alone.

The other doctrin is when we hear a message and the moment we eternalize it as truth is a conversion. Just like convertion to any religion it that moment of decision. like "Today, if you hear my voice don't turn away like you did in the rebellion". 

both doctrins take other scriptures pull them out and say this means this and this means that. But that is just human assuption bible dosent teach a doctrin on conversion either way.

[OneLight]

3 minutes ago, Robert William said:

If their sins are forgiven they don't need to accept, they already have eternal life in the Kingdom.:)

That is where I believe you get it all wrong.  I stated the following:

If you reread John 3:16-17, you will understand that salvation is for everyone, IF they accept it.

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.  For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

There are conditions to salvation.

You are ignoring the fact that one must believe in Him and His salvation in order to have their sins forgiven.  Otherwise, they are still responsible for their own sins.  You see, God provided a way, an open door for people to walk through in order to be safe.  Because the door is there doesn't make anyone safe if they do not walk through it.

[Robert William]

1 minute ago, Reinitin said:

but there are 2 teachings on actual convertion neither is clearly addressed in scripture. one is that converstion is the born again process by Gods Spirit which would be Gods alone.

The other doctrin is when we hear a message and the moment we eternalize it as truth is a conversion. Just like convertion to any religion it that moment of decision. like "Today, if you hear my voice don't turn away like you did in the rebellion". 

both doctrins take other scriptures pull them out and say this means this and this means that. But that is just human assuption bible dosent teach a doctrin on conversion either way.

But the natural man considers the gospel to be foolishness, so why would he embrace it??

1Co 2:14  But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

It is man who is deceitful (Jer. 17:9), full of evil (Mark 7:21-23), loves darkness (John 3:19), does not seek for God (Rom. 3:10-12), is ungodly (Rom. 5:6), dead in his sins (Eph. 2:1), by nature a child of wrath (Eph. 2:3), cannot understand spiritual things (1 Cor. 2:14), and a slave of sin (Rom. 6:16-20).
The unbeliever CAN respond to God. His response will be in accordance to Scripture that says that he cannot do good, is a hater of God, is full of evil, etc. Therefore, we conclude that his free will response will be to reject God, according to the limits described by Scripture itself.
How is it possible that an unbeliever who cannot understand spiritual things (1 Cor. 2:14), who does not seek for God (Rom. 3:10-12), and who is a slave of sin (Rom. 6:14-20), simply "chooses" God?
It is God who appoints people to believe (Acts 13:48), chooses who is to be holy and blameless (Eph. 1:4), calls according to His purpose (2 Tim. 1:9), chooses us for salvation (2 Thess. 2:13-14), grants the act of believing (Phil. 1:29), grants repentance (2 Tim. 2:24-26). It is God who causes us to be born again (1 Pet. 1:3), draws people to Himself (John 6:44, 65), predestines us to salvation (Rom. 8:29-30) and adoption (Eph. 1:5) according to His purpose (Eph. 1:11), makes us born again not by our will but by His will (John 1:12-13), and works faith in the believer (John 6:28-29).
Man Apart from God
Jer. 13:23, "Can the Ethiopian change his skin or the leopard his spots? Then you also can do good who are accustomed to doing evil."
Rom. 5:10, "For if while we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life."
Rom. 8:7, "because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so."
Total Depravity Verses
Gen. 6:5, "Then the Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually."
Gen. 8:21, "And the Lord smelled the soothing aroma; and the Lord said to Himself, “I will never again curse the ground on account of man, for the intent of man’s heart is evil from his youth."
Ecc. 7:29, “Behold, I have found only this, that God made men upright, but they have sought out many devices.”
Micah 7:4, "The best of them is like a briar, The most upright like a thorn hedge. The day when you post a watchman, Your punishment will come. Then their confusion will occur."
John 3:27, "John answered and said, “A man can receive nothing, unless it has been given him from heaven."
Verses against free will choice of sinners:
John 1:13, "who were born not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God."
Rom. 9:16, "So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy."
"the man" is singular
Rom. 9:18, "So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires."

[Robert William]

3 minutes ago, Yowm said:

They are objectively forgiven through the objective work of Christ at Calvary but becomes personally and individually mine as I appropriate His objective work by faith (subjective side).

Listen I was involved in Calvinism for 10 plus years, so I’ve heard all the arguments and am very familiar with the teaching including the Belgic and Westminster. It has some good points but when compared with Scripture, especially on limited atonement and Covenant theology, it has more holes than Swiss cheese and smells like Limburger.

So when Jesus objectively Atoned for the sins of all humans their sins were not forgiven, is that what you are saying??

Edited September 29, 2017 by Robert William

[Fidei Defensor]

2 hours ago, frienduff thaylorde said:

The accountability factor is long gone in many churches now, but sadly so is the preaching of the TRUE JESUS who could have saved them.

a hint ,   IF ya coming to JESUS for MONEY............he aint ya god, MONEY IS. that kind of gosple

or This false one too.  that JESUS is just one way among many ways , that all religions are valid.  What a dung pile .

 

I agree, accountability is almost exstinct in the. church. Instead the secular world is providing accountability with Alcholics Anoymoua, Drug Rehab, Counseling (there is Christian ones but the secular world is putting more money towards recovery and accountability). It is sad we the Church have fallen short in this area and the world is filling in the gaps.  

Indeed, Jesus said you can serve God or Mammon (god of money, Satan see Ezekiel 29:11-18, he invented commerce), ""No one is able to serve two masters, for either he will hate the one and he will love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and he will despise the other. You are not able to serve God and mammon." (Matthew 6:24). 

 

 

 

Edited September 29, 2017 by Fidei Defensor

[Robert William]

1 minute ago, Yowm said:

Matthew 16:15-17 KJVS
[15] He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? [16] And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. [17] And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

It takes a work of God to open ones eyes to the truth of Jesus.

 

That work God is called born again and can't be resisted because man is made a new creature with a new nature.

[Robert William]

Just now, Yowm said:

No, and I’ve used the example of Lincoln with the Declaration of Emancipation and Moses lifting up the brazen serpent showing that even though it was for all only those who faith took hold of it possessed it. One must take hold of Jesus by faith.

 

If they don't take hold are they still saved since ALL  their sins have been Atoned for, I hope you are not saying those whose sins have been Atoned for can end up in Hell!

[Robert William]

Just now, Yowm said:

It can be resisted because it comes by means...God’s Word.

Negative, a new creature in Christ will never reject Jesus to the point of eternal damnation!