Conversation about the Tribulation and God`s Wrath.

[Marilyn C]

[Marilyn C]

[Steve Conley]

On 3/31/2018 at 6:42 PM, Marilyn C said:

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

Marilyn C, I had hoped that you would be able to grasp the simple statements of Scripture and come to understand that the church will face unparalleled persecution before Christ arrives for us at His parousia.

There is only one future coming (parousia) of Christ. The Scriptures speak of Him appearing the second time, not a third.

Heb 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

The word "coming", translated from "parousia" means, arrival and continuing presence. Notice that the word is used of both the gathering of the saints and His appearing in all His glory with the holy angels.

1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming (parousia) of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

Mat 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming (parousia) of the Son of man be.

Christ's parousia involves all His eschatological activities from His appearing for every eye to see, the resurrection of the dead in Christ, the rapture, the trumpet judgements, the vial judgements, and even Rev 19:11-21 where He destroys the Beast and the armies that follow him. All of these activities will take at a minimum, many months.

Jesus says that the day of the rapture of the saints will be the day He begins to pour out His wrath upon the unbelieving earth-dwellers.

Luk 17:26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
Luk 17:27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.
Luk 17:28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
Luk 17:29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
Luk 17:30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

Paul says that the church will rest from persecution on the day that Christ brings tribulation upon the Beast worshiping earth-dwellers.

2Th 1:6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
2Th 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

Paul says that we are not appointed unto the wrath of God upon the day of the Lord, which will fall suddenly upon the Beast worshiping earth-dwellers.

1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
1Th 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
1Th 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
1Th 5:5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
...
1Th 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

The wrath that we are not going to experience is God's day of the Lord wrath. It just so happens that we are told when the day of the Lord will begin. It begins after the cosmic sign of Joel appears.

Joe 2:31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.

John identifies the timing of this cosmic sign which comes before the day of the Lord begins in relation to the seals which Jesus alone can open.

Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

Jesus identifies this cosmic sign in relation to the great tribulation saying it comes immediately after it.

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

So, Christ's parousia takes place at some point in the second half of the week after the opening of the sixth seal when the cosmic sign appears immediately after the great tribulation. That is when Jesus arrives for us, not before.

Note: Jesus tells us that the period of great tribulation (unprecedented persecution of the elect and Israel) is shortened to save some of the elect alive (Matt 24:22). Great tribulation doesn't continue for the duration of the Beast's 42 months, it is cut short.

The activities described in Revelation 19 are those at the end of the eschatological wrath of God on the day of the Lord. Notice that Christ's vesture is already soiled with the blood of His enemies.

Remember, it is the Devil's desire to have the saints unprepared for the great persecution that is to befall the last generation of the church and Israel.

All praise, honour, and glory be unto the Lamb who was slain from the foundation of the world.

[Marilyn C]

11 minutes ago, Steve Conley said:

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

Marilyn C, I had hoped that you would be able to grasp the simple statements of Scripture and come to understand that the church will face unparalleled persecution before Christ arrives for us at His parousia.

There is only one future coming (parousia) of Christ. The Scriptures speak of Him appearing the second time, not a third.

 

 

Hi Steve,

I certainly only see the Lord returning in power and great glory to this earth, (second time) however the Head, Christ, connecting to His body is another thing.

Now can you tell me what the Lord is doing at the beginning of Daniel`s 70th week. and where He is?

Marilyn.

 

[Daniel 11:36]

"I had hoped that you would be able to grasp the simple statements of Scripture and come to understand that the church will face unparalleled persecution before Christ arrives for us at His parousia"

 

Not true

The "church" of today will be immortalized just before He brings His wrath upon an unbelieving world

And by the way, the Lord is always present .... you should know this, you just cannot see Him

There will be those who will repent and turn to the Lord during the coming tribulation period .... some will be killed and resurrected at the end f the tribulation period

Others will enter and populate His millennial kingdom as mortals

Edited April 2, 2018 by Daniel 11:36

[Steve Conley]

1 minute ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Steve,

I certainly only see the Lord returning in power and great glory to this earth, (second time) however the Head, Christ, connecting to His body is another thing.

Now can you tell me what the Lord is doing at the beginning of Daniel`s 70th week. and where He is?

Marilyn.

 

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

Marilyn C, that's an easy one. He is at the Fathers right hand interceding for us and will begin to open the seals at the beginning of the week.

Act 3:19  Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
Act 3:20  And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
Act 3:21  Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

Rom 8:34  Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

Heb_7:25  Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

Hallelujah

[Steve Conley]

5 minutes ago, Daniel 11:36 said:

"I had hoped that you would be able to grasp the simple statements of Scripture and come to understand that the church will face unparalleled persecution before Christ arrives for us at His parousia"

 

Not true

The "church" of today will be immortalized just before He brings His wrath upon an unbelieving world

And by the way, the Lord is always present .... you should know this, you just cannot see Him

There will be those who will repent and turn to the Lord during the coming tribulation period .... some will be killed and resurrected at the end f the tribulation period

Others will enter and populate His millennial kingdom as mortals

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

Daniel 11:36, you sound just like another pre-tribulationist that I rebut on occasion, Geoffery is his name. For the most part, all either of you do is make assertions without Biblical support. You will notice that my statements were provided with supporting texts of the Holy Scriptures. Why don't you try that for a change, instead of spouting your eschatological system, do what Paul did and reason from the Scriptures.

Hallelujah

[Daniel 11:36]

Just what I am doing .... 

You must be giving your rendering of what you have read about mid-tribulation theology and a few other non-Biblical renderings

I think your view is skewed and you should read you Bible again, then you may turn over with a proper perspective

[Steve Conley]

3 minutes ago, Daniel 11:36 said:

Just what I am doing .... 

You must be giving your rendering of what you have read about mid-tribulation theology and a few other non-Biblical renderings

I think your view is skewed and you should read you Bible again, then you may turn over with a proper perspective

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

Daniel 11:36, let me help you a little. What I teach is called the pre-wrath model for the timing of the rapture, it has nothing to do with mid-trib rapture teaching. Mid-trib rapture teaching has most of the fundamental flaws found in pre-trib rapture teaching.  Also, note that the discipline we are discussing is not theology. Theology is the study of God. We are discussing eschatology, the study of last things or the last days.

If you can provide Scriptural building blocks, like I have, in support of your eschatological model I'll be happy to affirm them or respond in correction with sound exegesis of the pertinent texts. Unsupported assertions are no better than opinions, and everyone has them.

Can you answer one question for me? Where does Joel 2:31 fit into your eschatological model?

Joe 2:31  The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.

Thanks for your response.

Hallelujah

[Daniel 11:36]

"Can you answer one question for me? Where does Joel 2:31 fit into your eschatological model?"

 

Joel

2:31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the LORD come.

 

This passage is written to Israel and it gives the beginning of the day of the Lord which is the same day as stipulated in Revelation 6:12-17 .... the beginning of the 70th week decreed for Israel

Chapters 8 through 19 are specifically given to show this time frame with the exception of Revelation 12:4-5 and Revelation 17:8 .... the beast that thou sawest was, and is not

Abaddon/Apollyon is this beast who ruled over 5 of the 7 kingdoms of the Middle East in the past just before the first century .... he was then sent to the abyss

He will then come out of the abyss during the 70th week decreed for Israel

He will rule over the smaller 6th and larger 7th kingdoms during the tribulation period

His habitation will include the 7th kingdom in which he will incarnate the human little horn of Daniel's visions during the last 1260 days of the 70th week

This changing will give him the 8th position ruling over all 7 of the Middle Eastern kingdoms

Then the Lord will destroy him in His lake of fire at the battle of Armageddon in the next 30 days

Edited April 2, 2018 by Daniel 11:36