Who and What are the Elect ?

[Psalms37:4]

On 12/25/2017 at 4:19 AM, Diaste said:

Matt 24

³⁰ And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

³¹ And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Mark 13

²⁶ “At that time people will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory. ²⁷ And he will send his angels and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of the heavens.

What do you suppose the timing is here? It's the time/space moment when Jesus appears in the clouds, generally acknowledged by all as the time when Jesus comes to mete out the wrath of God. This occurs at the 6th seal of Rev, in the 6th chapter of the same. This occurs after the 5th seal where we see the dead in Jesus under the altar. From Rev 6:12-14 we know what the sign of the coming of Son of Man looks like, referenced by Jesus in Matt 24, Luke 21 and, Mark 13 above. Since Jesus is speaking here, he of course harmonizes His own words. The redemption of Luke 21:28 is the gathering of Matt 24:31 and Mark 13:27. There can be no doubt the Redemption of Luke 21:28 is the same as the gathering of Mark 13:27 and Matt 24:31, set in time and space as occurring in conjunction with the appearing of Jesus in the clouds, just before the wrath of the Lamb, and after the 'tribulation of those days', sometime near the end of the week. Not at the end of 2520 days, but near to it.

So you see that even if Luke does not record the words, "gather together his elect" or, "gather his elect", the timing of the redemption is exactly the same as the gathering of Mark and Matt ergo, it's just as explicit.

No Diaste, I don't see what you see. Redemption in the bible is not synonyms with gathering. What I do see is someone attempting to give his own interpretation of scripture based on a subjectively, non-analytical approach by injecting his own ideas into the text making it say what he wants it to say. Instead of conforming to the bible, your presentations are highly subjective as you're reading into the text, imposing your interpretation onto the text.

Every translation that did not use the word redemption associate the passage as being saved from wrath, not gathered. 

https://www.biblestudytools.com/luke/21-28-compare.html

 

Matt 24

³⁰ And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

³¹ And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Mark 13

²⁶ “At that time people will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory. ²⁷ And he will send his angels and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of the heavens.

 

The gatherings in Mathew 24 and Mark 13 are "vaguely stated" not explicitly stated as they don't elaborate how the elects will be gathered after the tribulation.

This is "explicitly stated!" They will return singing, dancing, laughing, cheering, crying, eating and carrying their children on their shoulder when they return by road. There's no snatching or catching into the air to meet Jesus in the sky during their return back to Israel. The gathering after the tribulation is the same as all other gatherings in the past when God gathered Israel back to her homeland after being scattered whether it be after 70 years, 2000 years, 2700 years or even 3.5 years, God always brings the Jews home to Israel. 

 

Jeremiah 32:37-42 New King James Version (NKJV)

³⁷ Behold, I will gather them out of all countries where I have driven them in My anger, in My fury, and in great wrath; I will bring them back to this place, and I will cause them to dwell safely. ³⁸ They shall be My people, and I will be their God; ³⁹ then I will give them one heart and one way, that they may fear Me forever, for the good of them and their children after them. ⁴⁰ And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from doing them good; but I will put My fear in their hearts so that they will not depart from Me. ⁴¹ Yes, I will rejoice over them to do them good, and I will assuredly plant them in this land, with all My heart and with all My soul.’

⁴² “For thus says the Lord: ‘Just as I have brought all this great calamity on this people, so I will bring on them all the good that I have promised them.

 

Isaiah 49:8-26 Good News Translation (GNT)

⁸ The Lord says to his people,

“When the time comes to save you, I will show you favor
    and answer your cries for help.
I will guard and protect you
    and through you make a covenant with all peoples.
I will let you settle once again
    in your land that is now laid waste.
⁹ I will say to the prisoners, ‘Go free!’
    and to those who are in darkness,
    ‘Come out to the light!’
They will be like sheep that graze on the hills;
¹⁰     they will never be hungry or thirsty.
Sun and desert heat will not hurt them,
    for they will be led by one who loves them.
    He will lead them to springs of water.

¹¹ “I will make a highway across the mountains
    and prepare a road for my people to travel.
¹² My people will come from far away,
    from the north and the west,
    and from Aswan in the south.”

¹³ Sing, heavens! Shout for joy, earth!
    Let the mountains burst into song!
The Lord will comfort his people;
    he will have pity on his suffering people.

¹⁴ But the people of Jerusalem said,

“The Lord has abandoned us!
    He has forgotten us.”

¹⁵ So the Lord answers,

“Can a woman forget her own baby
    and not love the child she bore?
Even if a mother should forget her child,
    I will never forget you.
¹⁶ Jerusalem, I can never forget you!
    I have written your name on the palms of my hands.

¹⁷ “Those who will rebuild you are coming soon,
    and those who destroyed you will leave.
¹⁸ Look around and see what is happening!
    Your people are assembling—they are coming home!
As surely as I am the living God,
    you will be proud of your people,
    as proud as a bride is of her jewels.

¹⁹ “Your country was ruined and desolate—
    but now it will be too small
    for those who are coming to live there.
And those who left you in ruins
    will be far removed from you.
²⁰ Your people who were born in exile
    will one day say to you,
‘This land is too small—
    we need more room to live in!’
²¹ Then you will say to yourself,
‘Who bore all these children for me?
I lost my children and could have no more.
I was exiled and driven away—
    who brought these children up?
I was left all alone—
    where did these children come from?’”

²² The Sovereign Lord says to his people:

“I will signal to the nations,
    and they will bring your children home.
²³ Kings will be like fathers to you;
    queens will be like mothers.
They will bow low before you and honor you;
    they will humbly show their respect for you.
Then you will know that I am the Lord;
    no one who waits for my help will be disappointed.”

²⁴ Can you take away a soldier's loot?
    Can you rescue the prisoners of a tyrant?

²⁵ The Lord replies,

“That is just what is going to happen.
The soldier's prisoners will be taken away,
    and the tyrant's loot will be seized.
I will fight against whoever fights you,
    and I will rescue your children.
²⁶ I will make your oppressors kill each other;
    they will be drunk with murder and rage.
Then all people will know that I am the Lord,
    the one who saves you and sets you free.
They will know that I am Israel's powerful God.”

 

Isaiah 35:10 New King James Version (NKJV)

¹⁰ And the ransomed of the Lord shall return,
And come to Zion with singing,
With everlasting joy on their heads.
They shall obtain joy and gladness,
And sorrow and sighing shall flee away.

 

Psalm 126:1-2 New King James Version (NKJV)

126 When the Lord brought back the captivity of Zion,
We were like those who dream.
² Then our mouth was filled with laughter,
And our tongue with singing.
Then they said among the nations,
“The Lord has done great things for them.”

 

Jeremiah 31:8-11 New King James Version (NKJV)

⁸ Behold, I will bring them from the north country,
And gather them from the ends of the earth,
Among them the blind and the lame,
The woman with child
And the one who labors with child, together;
A great throng shall return there.
⁹ They shall come with weeping,
And with supplications I will lead them.
I will cause them to walk by the rivers of waters,
In a straight way in which they shall not stumble;
For I am a Father to Israel,
And Ephraim is My firstborn.

¹⁰ “Hear the word of the Lord, O nations,
And declare it in the isles afar off, and say,
‘He who scattered Israel will gather him,
And keep him as a shepherd does his flock.’
¹¹ For the Lord has redeemed Jacob,
And ransomed him from the hand of one stronger than he.

 

Tell me Diaste, do you see a rapture or a resurrection occur during the gathering after the tribulation mentioned anywhere in the entire chapter of the above scriptures or in the entire chapters of the scriptures below?

Ezekiel 39:21-29

Isaiah 27:12-13

Jeremiah 50:4-5

Micah 2:12

Amos 9:11-15

Psalm 106: 46-47

A gathering is not a rapture. None of the gatherings God had performed in the past involving the Jewish people were brought back via a rapture. Of course there will have to be one last final gathering after the tribulation because all of Israel's enemies will be destroy and they can return to dwell in their homeland once again. This is not a rapture, it's the teachings of an eisegete. 

Edited December 26, 2017 by Psalms37:4

[Psalms37:4]

On 12/25/2017 at 1:01 AM, ForHisGlory37 said:

I didn't say they were parallel verses... I said that Matthew tells of when Jesus comes (immediately after the tribulation)  and then Luke 21 tells what will happen before the tribulation comes.......  not forcing anything.... you just need to let the Spirit open your eyes of understanding.....

 

Here is an example of this from the movie God's Not Dead 2 on youtube God's Not Dead 2-James Warner Wallace  

In Matthew 26: 65-68 (when Jesus is brought before Caiphus) Then the high priest rent his clothes, saying, He hath spoken blasphemy; what further need have we of witnesses?  behold, now ye have heard his blasphemy.  What think ye?  They answered and said, He is guilty of death. Then did they spit in his face, and beffeted him; and other smote him with the palms of their hands, Saying, Prophesy unto us, thou Christ, Who is he that smote thee?  Here we ask ourselves why would it be prophesy to ask who hit you?  

Well, when we read Luke we get the answer. 

Luke 22:63-64  And the men that held Jesus mocked him, and smote him.  And when they had blindfolded him, they struck him on the face, and asked him, saying, Prophesy, who is it that smote thee?

Matthew 24, Mark 13, Luke 21, 2 Thessalonians 2  all talk about the last days, some what will happen before the tribulation, all from different perspectives but all giving the same narrative.  No contradictions.  No forcing of Scripture.....  Precept upon precept, line upon line, here a little, there a little..............

I'm not really interested in changing the topic and now talk about God's Not Dead part 2. If you wanted to defend Diaste's theory that Luke 21 explicitly stated a gathering after the tribulation, please show me the text from Luke 21 that actually say that. Otherwise you're both wrong.

[Diaste]

2 hours ago, Psalms37:4 said:

No Diaste, I don't see what you see. Redemption in the bible is not synonyms with gathering. What I do see is someone attempting to give his own interpretation of scripture based on a subjectively, non-analytical approach by injecting his own ideas into the text making it say what he wants it to say. Instead of conforming to the bible, your presentations are highly subjective as you're reading into the text, imposing your interpretation onto the text.

Every translation that did not use the word redemption associate the passage as being saved from wrath, not gathered. 

https://www.biblestudytools.com/luke/21-28-compare.html

 

Matt 24

³⁰ And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

³¹ And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Mark 13

²⁶ “At that time people will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory. ²⁷ And he will send his angels and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of the heavens.

 

The gatherings in Mathew 24 and Mark 13 are "vaguely stated" not explicitly stated as they don't elaborate how the elects will be gathered after the tribulation.

This is "explicitly stated!" They will return singing, dancing, laughing, cheering, crying, eating and carrying their children on their shoulder when they return by road. There's no snatching or catching into the air to meet Jesus in the sky during their return back to Israel. The gathering after the tribulation is the same as all other gatherings in the past when God gathered Israel back to her homeland after being scattered whether it be after 70 years, 2000 years, 2700 years or even 3.5 years, God always brings the Jews home to Israel. 

 

Jeremiah 32:37-42 New King James Version (NKJV)

³⁷ Behold, I will gather them out of all countries where I have driven them in My anger, in My fury, and in great wrath; I will bring them back to this place, and I will cause them to dwell safely. ³⁸ They shall be My people, and I will be their God; ³⁹ then I will give them one heart and one way, that they may fear Me forever, for the good of them and their children after them. ⁴⁰ And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from doing them good; but I will put My fear in their hearts so that they will not depart from Me. ⁴¹ Yes, I will rejoice over them to do them good, and I will assuredly plant them in this land, with all My heart and with all My soul.’

⁴² “For thus says the Lord: ‘Just as I have brought all this great calamity on this people, so I will bring on them all the good that I have promised them.

 

Isaiah 49:8-26 Good News Translation (GNT)

⁸ The Lord says to his people,

“When the time comes to save you, I will show you favor
    and answer your cries for help.
I will guard and protect you
    and through you make a covenant with all peoples.
I will let you settle once again
    in your land that is now laid waste.
⁹ I will say to the prisoners, ‘Go free!’
    and to those who are in darkness,
    ‘Come out to the light!’
They will be like sheep that graze on the hills;
¹⁰     they will never be hungry or thirsty.
Sun and desert heat will not hurt them,
    for they will be led by one who loves them.
    He will lead them to springs of water.

¹¹ “I will make a highway across the mountains
    and prepare a road for my people to travel.
¹² My people will come from far away,
    from the north and the west,
    and from Aswan in the south.”

¹³ Sing, heavens! Shout for joy, earth!
    Let the mountains burst into song!
The Lord will comfort his people;
    he will have pity on his suffering people.

¹⁴ But the people of Jerusalem said,

“The Lord has abandoned us!
    He has forgotten us.”

¹⁵ So the Lord answers,

“Can a woman forget her own baby
    and not love the child she bore?
Even if a mother should forget her child,
    I will never forget you.
¹⁶ Jerusalem, I can never forget you!
    I have written your name on the palms of my hands.

¹⁷ “Those who will rebuild you are coming soon,
    and those who destroyed you will leave.
¹⁸ Look around and see what is happening!
    Your people are assembling—they are coming home!
As surely as I am the living God,
    you will be proud of your people,
    as proud as a bride is of her jewels.

¹⁹ “Your country was ruined and desolate—
    but now it will be too small
    for those who are coming to live there.
And those who left you in ruins
    will be far removed from you.
²⁰ Your people who were born in exile
    will one day say to you,
‘This land is too small—
    we need more room to live in!’
²¹ Then you will say to yourself,
‘Who bore all these children for me?
I lost my children and could have no more.
I was exiled and driven away—
    who brought these children up?
I was left all alone—
    where did these children come from?’”

²² The Sovereign Lord says to his people:

“I will signal to the nations,
    and they will bring your children home.
²³ Kings will be like fathers to you;
    queens will be like mothers.
They will bow low before you and honor you;
    they will humbly show their respect for you.
Then you will know that I am the Lord;
    no one who waits for my help will be disappointed.”

²⁴ Can you take away a soldier's loot?
    Can you rescue the prisoners of a tyrant?

²⁵ The Lord replies,

“That is just what is going to happen.
The soldier's prisoners will be taken away,
    and the tyrant's loot will be seized.
I will fight against whoever fights you,
    and I will rescue your children.
²⁶ I will make your oppressors kill each other;
    they will be drunk with murder and rage.
Then all people will know that I am the Lord,
    the one who saves you and sets you free.
They will know that I am Israel's powerful God.”

 

Isaiah 35:10 New King James Version (NKJV)

¹⁰ And the ransomed of the Lord shall return,
And come to Zion with singing,
With everlasting joy on their heads.
They shall obtain joy and gladness,
And sorrow and sighing shall flee away.

 

Psalm 126:1-2 New King James Version (NKJV)

126 When the Lord brought back the captivity of Zion,
We were like those who dream.
² Then our mouth was filled with laughter,
And our tongue with singing.
Then they said among the nations,
“The Lord has done great things for them.”

 

Jeremiah 31:8-11 New King James Version (NKJV)

⁸ Behold, I will bring them from the north country,
And gather them from the ends of the earth,
Among them the blind and the lame,
The woman with child
And the one who labors with child, together;
A great throng shall return there.
⁹ They shall come with weeping,
And with supplications I will lead them.
I will cause them to walk by the rivers of waters,
In a straight way in which they shall not stumble;
For I am a Father to Israel,
And Ephraim is My firstborn.

¹⁰ “Hear the word of the Lord, O nations,
And declare it in the isles afar off, and say,
‘He who scattered Israel will gather him,
And keep him as a shepherd does his flock.’
¹¹ For the Lord has redeemed Jacob,
And ransomed him from the hand of one stronger than he.

 

Tell me Diaste, do you see a rapture or a resurrection occur during the gathering after the tribulation mentioned anywhere in the entire chapter of the above scriptures or in the entire chapters of the scriptures below?

Ezekiel 39:21-29

Isaiah 27:12-13

Jeremiah 50:4-5

Micah 2:12

Amos 9:11-15

Psalm 106: 46-47

A gathering is not a rapture. None of the gatherings God had performed in the past involving the Jewish people were brought back via a rapture. Of course there will have to be one last final gathering after the tribulation because all of Israel's enemies will be destroy and they can return to dwell in their homeland once again. This is not a rapture, it's the teachings of an eisegete. 

As you wish. You'll see.

[Diaste]

18 hours ago, missmuffet said:

Thank you

Very clever. Belief is not fact. It's hypocrisy to decry others opinions when you are just as opinionated.

[Diaste]

3 hours ago, Psalms37:4 said:

I'm not really interested in changing the topic and now talk about God's Not Dead part 2. If you wanted to defend Diaste's theory that Luke 21 explicitly stated a gathering after the tribulation, please show me the text from Luke 21 that actually say that. Otherwise you're both wrong.

And that's what you have to pick on when Matt 24 clearly states a gathering after the trib? When all three disciples sat and listened to this same sermon? When Luke recorded the same timelines? When intellectual honesty would remain in context reconciling the texts? Anyone can make rhetorical statements based on cursory, thin examination. 

But again. As you wish. That's your prerogative. Claim the win as well. You'll see. When you see the beast rise and the Temple construction underway, message me. I'll be here.

[Quasar93]

5 hours ago, Diaste said:

Sure it's addressed to the Jews only, if many other scriptures are ignored. That's always the trouble with sloganeers, no comprehensive understanding due to lack of spiritual discernment. All scripture must be taken into account.

 

2 Timothy 3:16

All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

This is to everyone, not Jew, not Gentile, not church, everyone. All scripture, for all, from God. That means the Gospels.

So you pick and choose what is just for the Jews from the gospels? So salvation is clearly in the gospels, Jesus was only sent to the Jews, therefore salvation is only for Jews. Obviously incorrect.

Here's another truth you ignore:

 

Romans 10:12

For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

There is no difference between the races any longer, never really was in the eyes of the Father, yet you build a wall between Jews and Gentiles. Proof:

Colossians 3

11 Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.

No such thing as social or racial status in Christ.

Galatians 3:28

There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

Because of the above truth we see you are a divider, not an edifier. You separate, Christ binds together.

All scripture is for all as Paul says. If indeed the Olivet discourse is for the Jews then again you and everyone else who believes this is proven wrong by scripture.

Read Romans 11 for the truth. If you have trouble understanding what Paul is saying let me know, I'll help.

 

 

What's wrong with the above?  Jesus ministry n His first advent, was EXCLUSIVELY to Israel [the Jews], He made abundantly clear in Mt.5:24 and 10:5-6.  The Church DID NOT exist then, because the Holy Spirit had not yet arrived, according to Jn.7:39, until at Pentecost, ten days after Jesus ascended into heaven, accorde\ing to Acts 1:9 and 2:1-3.   Which translates into Mt.24; Mk.13 and Lk.21 being addressed EXCLUSIVELY to Israel [the Jews].

In the case of who Paul was addressing in 2 Thess.2, it was to the Thess. CHURCH - consisting of Jews and Gentiles who all belong to the ONE BODY of Christ, His Church, as recorded in 1 Cor.12:12-13.

The difference between Israel and the Church:  The Church = All believers.  Israel = All non-believers, except for the few who come to believe in Jesus as their Messiah. 

According to the prophetic Word, Israel does not recognize Jesus as their Messiah, until His second coming, as recorded in Zech.12:10 and 14:4-5.

 

Quasar93  

[Daniel 11:36]

Quasar is correct

[Justin Adams]

1 minute ago, Quasar93 said:

EXCLUSIVELY to Israel

Sorry. Not correct.

Woman at the well was Samaritan. Legion was not in Israeli territory thus his demon said, "Son of the Most High" signifying Yeshua was Lord of all the world and came to all the world.

[Diaste]

5 minutes ago, Quasar93 said:

 

What's wrong with the above?  Jesus ministry n His first advent, was EXCLUSIVELY to Israel [the Jews], He made abundantly clear in Mt.5:24 and 10:5-6.  The Church DID NOT exist then, because the Holy Spirit had not yet arrived, according to Jn.7:39, until at Pentecost, ten days after Jesus ascended into heaven, accorde\ing to Acts 1:9 and 2:1-3.   Which translates into Mt.24; Mk.13 and Lk.21 being addressed EXCLUSIVELY to Israel [the Jews].

In the case of who Paul was addressing in 2 Thess.2, it was to the Thess. CHURCH - consisting of Jews and Gentiles who all belong to the ONE BODY of Christ, His Church, as recorded in 1 Cor.12:12-13.

The difference between Israel and the Church:  The Church = All believers.  Israel = All non-believers, except for the few who come to believe in Jesus as their Messiah. 

According to the prophetic Word, Israel does not recognize Jesus as their Messiah, until His second coming, as recorded in Zech.12:10 and 14:4-5.

 

Quasar93  

It's not so much that you're wrong, it's the incomplete understanding. If we are told all scripture is from God and it's profitable for doctrine, then all scripture is for everyone. This must be too simple for you. I do apologize. I'm not wise or prudent. I just read and believe. That must be the problem.

[Diaste]

7 minutes ago, Daniel 11:36 said:

Quasar is correct

No he is NOT. You'll see. The time approaches quickly. The beast will rise with signs and wonders as the dragon empowers him. The Temple will be rebuilt. Message me when you see these things, I'll be here.