Who and What are the Elect ?

[Justin Adams]

To hold to the Jesuit, Darby and Scofield doctrines you have to split scriptures up to try and vainly maintain separate events.

Harmonizing the verses says it all really clearly from differing perspectives. One event with many facets - the SECOND COMING.

Otherwise, if you disunify scripture based on separate gospel accounts you have FOUR crucifixions. Preposterous!

[Diaste]

12 hours ago, Psalms37:4 said:

Diaste,

Here's Luke 21, the entire chapter. Where does it mention a gathering at the end of the tribulation? Correction, let me put it in your own words. Where is it EXPLICITLY STATED there's a gathering at the end of the last week?

I'm not denying there will be one, rather I'm asking do you know what you're talking about when posting scripture? I would hope you do if you're gonna use words like explicitly stated.

 

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=luke 21&version=NKJV

Luke 21 New King James Version (NKJV)

²⁵ “And there will be signs in the sun, in the moon, and in the stars; and on the earth distress of nations, with perplexity, the sea and the waves roaring; ²⁶ men’s hearts failing them from fear and the expectation of those things which are coming on the earth, for the powers of the heavens will be shaken. ²⁷ Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. ²⁸ Now when these things begin to happen, look up and lift up your heads, because your redemption draws near.”

Matt 24

³⁰ And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

³¹ And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Mark 13

²⁶ “At that time people will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory. ²⁷ And he will send his angels and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of the heavens.

What do you suppose the timing is here? It's the time/space moment when Jesus appears in the clouds, generally acknowledged by all as the time when Jesus comes to mete out the wrath of God. This occurs at the 6th seal of Rev, in the 6th chapter of the same. This occurs after the 5th seal where we see the dead in Jesus under the altar. From Rev 6:12-14 we know what the sign of the coming of Son of Man looks like, referenced by Jesus in Matt 24, Luke 21 and, Mark 13 above. Since Jesus is speaking here, he of course harmonizes His own words. The redemption of Luke 21:28 is the gathering of Matt 24:31 and Mark 13:27. There can be no doubt the Redemption of Luke 21:28 is the same as the gathering of Mark 13:27 and Matt 24:31, set in time and space as occurring in conjunction with the appearing of Jesus in the clouds, just before the wrath of the Lamb, and after the 'tribulation of those days', sometime near the end of the week. Not at the end of 2520 days, but near to it.

So you see that even if Luke does not record the words, "gather together his elect" or, "gather his elect", the timing of the redemption is exactly the same as the gathering of Mark and Matt ergo, it's just as explicit.

Edited December 25, 2017 by Diaste

[Diaste]

17 hours ago, missmuffet said:

When people just have opinions it goes no where with me.

Really?

I hear you say, "I believe." quite a bit. 

[Quasar93]

15 hours ago, hmbld said:

I see you esteem yourself worthy of sitting at the good seat. I prefer to sit back in the corner.  Especially if teach doesn’t recognize where authority comes from. 

 

That you denigrate me for identifying myself as a qualified teacher of the Bible is the typical crutch of all who are unable to field Scripturally based views in support of their belief system in rebuttal of their opponent, who can and does.

 

Quasar93 

[Quasar93]

23 hours ago, Diaste said:

Even so, the Word of God is from God and all men stand in judgement by that same Word. If any man does not say the thing that is correct according to the scriptures, then they do not speak from God. But again your knowledge and understanding of scripture are incomplete. How did Enoch, Elijah, Noah, Abraham, Job, and many, many others know the Lord our God? They did not have scripture. You place way too much stock in mankind.

 

Since it is clear you fail to have a clue, Enoch, Noah, Job Abraham and Elijah, all communicated DIRECTLY with God.  Furthermore, your statement, "But again your knowledge and understanding of scripture are incomplete," is pure egotistical arrogance.  Let me see a little bit of your proof for that.  Where did you obtain qualifications to teach the Bible, let alone eschatology?  Opinions you express are meaningless now and always will be without valid support.

 

Quasar93 

[Quasar93]

23 hours ago, Diaste said:

Matt 24

Mark 13

Luke 21

2 Thess 2

The only gathering explicitly stated and that at the end of the last week.

 

Reference to Mt.24, Mk.13 and Lk.21 are all specifically addressed to Israel, while 2 Thess.2:2 is addressed to the Church.

Anyone can post a listings of Scriptures as you have.  Supposing you apply them to a specific subject to give them all with a congruent meaning.

 

Quasar93

[missmuffet]

8 hours ago, Diaste said:

Really?

I hear you say, "I believe." quite a bit. 

Thank you

[Daniel 11:36]

^{31 "}And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

 

This is a gathering of surviving mortals left upon the earth at the end of the coming tribulation period

All of them who believe will enter and populate His millennial kingdom as mortals

There are no pre-tribulation saints included in this group .... these will rule with the Lord as immortals over the millennial kingdom 

[Diaste]

17 hours ago, Quasar93 said:

 

Reference to Mt.24, Mk.13 and Lk.21 are all specifically addressed to Israel, while 2 Thess.2:2 is addressed to the Church.

Anyone can post a listings of Scriptures as you have.  Supposing you apply them to a specific subject to give them all with a congruent meaning.

 

Quasar93

Sure it's addressed to the Jews only, if many other scriptures are ignored. That's always the trouble with sloganeers, no comprehensive understanding due to lack of spiritual discernment. All scripture must be taken into account.

 

2 Timothy 3:16

All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

This is to everyone, not Jew, not Gentile, not church, everyone. All scripture, for all, from God. That means the Gospels.

So you pick and choose what is just for the Jews from the gospels? So salvation is clearly in the gospels, Jesus was only sent to the Jews, therefore salvation is only for Jews. Obviously incorrect.

Here's another truth you ignore:

 

Romans 10:12

For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

There is no difference between the races any longer, never really was in the eyes of the Father, yet you build a wall between Jews and Gentiles. Proof:

Colossians 3

11 Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.

No such thing as social or racial status in Christ.

Galatians 3:28

There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

Because of the above truth we see you are a divider, not an edifier. You separate, Christ binds together.

All scripture is for all as Paul says. If indeed the Olivet discourse is for the Jews then again you and everyone else who believes this is proven wrong by scripture.

Read Romans 11 for the truth. If you have trouble understanding what Paul is saying let me know, I'll help.

 

[Justin Adams]

Humans have such a parochial mindset - when it suits them. Look at Sanger and Hitler and Stalin and Pol-Pot. Look at any of the convenience-differentiated abusers of history. The slaves, the slave trade.

All humans are good at is being elitist and parochial. YAHWEH is God of ALL. There are no  human differences. Israel was tasked with keeping pure - but anyone could join them. But if they profaned the Sabbath, no matter who they were, they were for the high jump!
Yeshua made us ALL EQUAL, and no delineation at all. Adam was not a Jew or Greek - Neither was Abram. Etc - I could go on and on and on...

Yahweh has ALWAYS been of the heart and not the color or race. He made us all.

Edited December 26, 2017 by Justin Adams