Jump to content
IGNORED

When all of Israel will come to know God in a personal relationship


Psalms37:4

Recommended Posts


  • Group:  Worthy Ministers
  • Followers:  9
  • Topic Count:  40
  • Topics Per Day:  0.01
  • Content Count:  6,543
  • Content Per Day:  1.07
  • Reputation:   2,427
  • Days Won:  1
  • Joined:  06/28/2007
  • Status:  Offline
  • Birthday:  10/28/1957

On 1/15/2018 at 8:31 AM, wingnut- said:

Hey brother,

I agree with you on your three points above, the only minor difference would be in regards to where we fit in.  I see that group referred to as the woman's offspring, or remnant of her seed (depending on which translation) can only be believers based on the requirement that they hold to the testimony of Jesus.  I believe it also confirms Revelation 13 in regards to the timing, and the war being waged against the saints for the exact same length of time.

Shalom, wingnut-.

Well, this is INDEED the crux of the matter: Are we "Christians" of whom some are "Jews," OR are we "children of Israel" of whom some are adopted into Israel from the nations of the world? I believe the latter.

Also, what does the GREEK say? Translations should NOT be our determination of what the author of Revelation originally meant. After all, English translations are HUMAN attempts to repeat in English what God said through the author in that author's original language, and NO translation has God's authentication of His inspiration. That honor went to the original manuscripts in the original languages. The copies that we have in those original languages are as close to that verbal inspiration as we can get.

Apokalupsis Ieesou Christou 12:17
17 Kai oorgisthee ho drakoon epi tee gunaiki kai apeelthen poieesai polemon meta toon loipoon tou spermatos autees, toon terountoon tas entolas tou Theou kai echontoon teen marturian Ieesou, 18 kai estathee epi teen ammon tees thalassees.

17 Kai = 17 And/Also
oorgisthee = was-angry
ho = the
drakoon = dragon
epi = upon/above/over
tee = the
gunaiki = woman
kai = and/also
apeelthen = went
poieesai = to-make
polemon = war
meta = with
toon = the
loipoon = remainder
tou = of-the
spermatos = seed/sperm
autees, = of-her,
toon = the
terountoon = keepers
tas = of-the
entolas = commandments
tou = of-the
Theou = God
kai = and/also
echontoon = holders
teen = of-the
marturian = witness/evidence/testimony
Ieesou, = of-Yeshua`,
18 kai = 18 and/also
estathee = he-stood
epi = upon/above/over
teen = the
ammon = sand
tees = of-the
thalassees. = sea.

17 And/Also was-angry the dragon upon/above/over the woman and/also went to-make war with the remainder of-the seed/sperm of-her the keepers of-the commandments of-the God and/also holders of-the witness/evidence/testimony of-Yeshua`, and/also he-stood upon/above/over the sand of-the sea.

So, Anglicized, this becomes MY "human attempt":

17 Also, the dragon was angry over the woman and went to make war with the remainder of her seed, the keepers of God's commandments and holders of Yeshua`s evidence, and he stood upon the sand of the sea.

The point is this: the phrase "holders of Yeshua`s evidence" does NOT necessarily mean that they are already "believers"; Messianic Jews may be INCLUDED within those who are "keepers of God's commandments and holders of Yeshua`s evidence," but they may not be the ONLY ones!

Which makes me think: Has anyone ever done a genetic test, like AncestryDNA, on the blood stains of the shroud of Turin? This could be evidence enough that might convince some of the Jews of the authenticity of Yeshua`s lineage (if indeed the shroud was Yeshua`s burial shroud). Just a thought, but... who knows?

What we DO know from prophecy is that many of the children of Israel will SUDDENLY become believers in Yeshua`s claim to the throne of David at His Second Coming.

Isaiah 66:7-14 (KJV)

7 Before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came, she was delivered of a man child.
8 Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children.
9 Shall I bring to the birth, and not cause to bring forth? saith the LORD: shall I cause to bring forth, and shut the womb? saith thy God.
10 Rejoice ye with Jerusalem, and be glad with her, all ye that love her: rejoice for joy with her, all ye that mourn for her:
11 That ye may suck, and be satisfied with the breasts of her consolations; that ye may milk out, and be delighted with the abundance of her glory.
12 For thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will extend peace to her like a river, and the glory of the Gentiles like a flowing stream: then shall ye suck, ye shall be borne upon her sides, and be dandled upon her knees.
13 As one whom his mother comforteth, so will I comfort you; and ye shall be comforted in Jerusalem.
14 And when ye see this, your heart shall rejoice, and your bones shall flourish like an herb: and the hand of the LORD shall be known toward his servants, and his indignation toward his enemies.

Luke 1:30-33 (KJV)

30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God. 31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. 32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: 33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

They will SUDDENLY realize that they were wrong all this time! THAT is the reason why they shall mourn for the Messiah Yeshua`. THAT, AND THE FACT THAT THEY ARE FAMILY!

I read the STRANGEST thing in a book recently: The passage was this: "On one occasion, Jesus told the Jewish religious leaders about two men who knew each other in life (Luke 16:19–31). One was a beggar who had physical disabilities. His name was Lazarus. At death, he was carried by angels to a place of great comfort. There he was able to begin a wonderful friendship with Abraham, the dead patriarch of the Jews."

[Dr. John Hart. 50 Things You Need to Know About Heaven (pp. 32-33). Baker Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.] 

Here's what I thought was so strange: What does "patriarch" mean? Well, simply put, it means a "chief father." Just "begin a wonderful friendship" with GRANDPA?! Elezar ("Lazarus") was a great, great, ... GRANDSON of Avraham! And, don't think that fact was lost on Avraham!

Zechariah 12:7-14 (KJV)

 7 The LORD also shall save the tents of Judah first, that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem do not magnify themselves against Judah. 8 In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the LORD before them. 9 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.

10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn. 11 In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon. 12 And the land shall mourn, every family apart; the family of the house of David apart, and their wives apart; the family of the house of Nathan apart, and their wives apart; 13 The family of the house of Levi apart, and their wives apart; the family of Shimei apart, and their wives apart; 14 All the families that remain, every family apart, and their wives apart.

And, as I've said before in other threads, these four names are specifically mentioned in this order in the lineage of Yeshua`, indicating that the Resurrection has already occurred by this point in future history:

Luke 3:23-38 (KJV)

23And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli, 24Which was the son of Matthat, which was the son of Levi, which was the son of Melchi, which was the son of Janna, which was the son of Joseph, 25Which was the son of Mattathias, which was the son of Amos, which was the son of Naum, which was the son of Esli, which was the son of Nagge, 26Which was the son of Maath, which was the son of Mattathias, which was the son of Semei, which was the son of Joseph, which was the son of Juda, 27Which was the son of Joanna, which was the son of Rhesa, which was the son of Zorobabel, which was the son of Salathiel, which was the son of Neri, 28Which was the son of Melchi, which was the son of Addi, which was the son of Cosam, which was the son of Elmodam, which was the son of Er, 29Which was the son of Jose, which was the son of Eliezer, which was the son of Jorim, which was the son of Matthat, which was the son of Levi, 30Which was the son of Simeon, which was the son of Juda, which was the son of Joseph, which was the son of Jonan, which was the son of Eliakim, 31Which was the son of Melea, which was the son of Menan, which was the son of Mattatha, which was the son of Nathan, which was the son of David, 32Which was the son of Jesse, which was the son of Obed, which was the son of Booz, which was the son of Salmon, which was the son of Naasson, 33Which was the son of Aminadab, which was the son of Aram, which was the son of Esrom, which was the son of Phares, which was the son of Juda, 34Which was the son of Jacob, which was the son of Isaac, which was the son of Abraham, which was the son of Thara, which was the son of Nachor, 35Which was the son of Saruch, which was the son of Ragau, which was the son of Phalec, which was the son of Heber, which was the son of Sala, 36Which was the son of Cainan, which was the son of Arphaxad, which was the son of Sem, which was the son of Noe, which was the son of Lamech, 37Which was the son of Mathusala, which was the son of Enoch, which was the son of Jared, which was the son of Maleleel, which was the sonof Cainan, 38Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.

John 19:31-37 (KJV)

31 The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was an high day,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away. 32 Then came the soldiers, and brake the legs of the first, and of the other which was crucified with him. 33 But when they came to Jesus, and saw that he was dead already, they brake not his legs: 34 But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water. 35 And he that saw it bare record, and his record is true: and he knoweth that he saith true, that ye might believe. 36 For these things were done, that the scripture should be fulfilled, A bone of him shall not be broken. 37 And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced.

What this tells me is that THEIR Resurrection happens BEFORE their conversion!

More later...

 

Edited by Retrobyter
to change one word and its emphasis
Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Worthy Ministers
  • Followers:  9
  • Topic Count:  40
  • Topics Per Day:  0.01
  • Content Count:  6,543
  • Content Per Day:  1.07
  • Reputation:   2,427
  • Days Won:  1
  • Joined:  06/28/2007
  • Status:  Offline
  • Birthday:  10/28/1957

Shabbat shalom, wingnut-.

Continuing on...

There are a TON of nuances that are NOT considered in the "near prophetic future" viewpoints of most prophecy buffs. For instance, it is very clear to me that the word "soul" means an "air-breathing body." This means that one should be careful with one's terminology: a human being doesn't "HAVE a body"; he or she "IS a body," and he or she "IS a soul" while he or she is breathing, just as Adam was created:

Genesis 2:7 (KJV)

7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul (Hebrew: nefesh = "air-breathing being").

YHWH Elohlyim didn't "form the body of a man"; the Scriptures say He formed the MAN from the dust of the ground! Then, He breathed into his nostrils the "puff of life," and man became a living "air-breather!"

When one ceases to breathe, one ceases to be a "soul" - an "air-breather." This turns our focus back to the RESURRECTION, which will LITERALLY be the time when God brings us back to life. So, in Revelation when Yochannan said, "I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain" (Rev. 6:9) or "I saw the SOULS of them that were beheaded" (Rev. 20:4), he is describing AIR-BREATHERS - people already resurrected, heads and torsos intact! That's why they could "cry with a loud voice" ANYTHING (Rev. 6:10)!

Add to this the fact that both words, "shaamayim" in Hebrew and "ouranos" in Greek, refer to the earth's SKY. Mostly, this involves the earth's atmosphere, but it's whatever human beings can SEE from the earth's surface. "Shaamayim" is a DUAL word; that is, it is neither singular nor multiple-plural, and the TWO skies are simply the "daytime sky" and the "nighttime sky." It's important also to note that God created greater and lesser LIGHTS (Hebrew: ham'orot = "the lights" [feminine]) in the FIRMAMENT (Hebrew: raqiya` = "expanse") of the "shaamayim," not the "sun" (Hebrew: shemesh) and the "moon" (Hebrew: yaareeach). The Scriptures say, "the greater light," which in Hebrew is "hamaa'owr hagaadowl," and "the lesser light," which in Hebrew is "hamaa'owr haqaabbaTon." Then, almost as an afterthought, He tacks on the two words "v'et hakowkhaaviym." The first word means "and-(the next word is the direct object)" and the second word means "the-round-objects (stars)," and "hakowkhaaviym" is a multiple-plural word. This tells me that the light - the electromagnetic radiation in the form of packets of energy called "photons" - were created FIRST! THEN, to keep these photons coming, God created the "sources" of that light SECOND! This direct object is added to the direct objects above and is associated with the verb "vaya`as" meaning "and He made." Thus, in the language of Genesis 1, we are told that God created this visible field of stars with the "appearance of age" less than 10,000 years ago.

So, what (and where) is "Heaven?" Yeshua` Himself told us indirectly in how He answered the P'rushiym v-Ts'duqiym (Pharisees and Sadducees) in Matthew 16:1-4:

Matthew 16:1-4 (KJV)

1 The Pharisees also with the Sadducees came, and tempting desired him that he would shew them a sign from heaven (Greek: ek tou ouranou = "out of-the sky"). 2 He answered and said unto them, When it is evening, ye say, It will befair weather: for the sky (Greek: ho ouranos = "the sky") is red. 3 And in the morning, It will be foul weather to day: for the sky (Greek: ho ouranos = "the sky") is red and lowring. O ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky (Greek: to ... prosoopon tou ouranou = "the [sur]face of-the sky"); but can ye not discern the signs of the times? 4 A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas. And he left them, and departed.

It's the SAME GREEK WORD in verses 2 and 3 as in verse 1! He didn't deny them a "sign from the sky"; he denied them a "sign of the times!" He GAVE them "signs from the sky": "Red sky at night is a sailor's delight; red sky at morning, sailors take warning!"

Throughout the Scriptures, we are NEVER given the promise of "going to Heaven when we die!" To the contrary, Yeshua` said that He would COLLECT us when He gets back, and we would be with HIM from that time on! (John 14:3) He also said to Yochannan in Revelation 21 and 22, that the New Jerusalem, the city from "ABOVE the sky" (Greek: EPouranioo = "of-ABOVE-[the]-sky" in Hebrews 12:22), would come down (to earth) out of the sky (Greek: ek tou ouranou = "out of-the sky"). The reason for His words in John 14:2 was to tell us (as a group) where He was going and what He was going to be doing while gone. He went to this New Jerusalem! And, He's been preparing us rooms there, not to come back and take us there, but to provide for us when the New Jerusalem descends to the New Earth! In the mean time, we'll be with Him throughout His activities and dealings as He prepares for and sets up His kingdom. 

All that is just two (or three) of the MANY nuances that are not considered!

Edited by Retrobyter
It's now the Shabbat (Sabbath).
Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Royal Member
  • Followers:  39
  • Topic Count:  101
  • Topics Per Day:  0.02
  • Content Count:  7,673
  • Content Per Day:  1.32
  • Reputation:   7,358
  • Days Won:  67
  • Joined:  04/22/2008
  • Status:  Offline

On 1/17/2018 at 10:37 PM, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, wingnut-.

Well, this is INDEED the crux of the matter: Are we "Christians" of whom some are "Jews," OR are we "children of Israel" of whom some are adopted into Israel from the nations of the world? I believe the latter.

 

Hey retro,

I agree with you on the above, I also believe the latter as we are grafted into the vine.

 

On 1/17/2018 at 10:37 PM, Retrobyter said:

Also, what does the GREEK say? Translations should NOT be our determination of what the author of Revelation originally meant. After all, English translations are HUMAN attempts to repeat in English what God said through the author in that author's original language, and NO translation has God's authentication of His inspiration. That honor went to the original manuscripts in the original languages. The copies that we have in those original languages are as close to that verbal inspiration as we can get.

 

On this we don't agree.  The way I see it, God made all of the languages when He confused them to begin with, and we don't really know what the original language even was.  What we do know is that He promised His words would stand forever, and to me that covers all languages as He knew that everyone did not speak the same one.

Another reason I disagree is based on personal experience, in that divine inspiration has given me knowledge of something that I would later learn was rooted in the original language, particularly in regards to the OT writings.  So the truth is revealed through the Spirit, and language is no barrier for Him.  From knowing Greek, I don't take issue with your version of the translation, but to me it says the exact same thing as the translated text I read in various bible versions I trust.

 

On 1/17/2018 at 10:37 PM, Retrobyter said:

The point is this: the phrase "holders of Yeshua`s evidence" does NOT necessarily mean that they are already "believers"; Messianic Jews may be INCLUDED within those who are "keepers of God's commandments and holders of Yeshua`s evidence," but they may not be the ONLY ones!

 

I'm not sure I am following you here.  Messianic Jews are believers, that is what makes them Messianic Jews, and I definitely don't believe they are the only ones because it also includes Gentile believers.

There are only two groups in question in this passage, the woman, and the remnant of her seed (offspring in some translations).  So if we determine the woman represents Israel, as in ethnic Israel by lineage, then we have to determine who the remnant of her seed is.  The woman is protected from the enemy for 3 1/2 years, so this removes them from the other group or any possibility of being confused with the other group.

We also have to account for Zechariah's prophecy regarding the nation of Israel, only 1/3 will be brought through the fire.  Since they are brought through the fire by the Lord, and that supports the information given regarding the woman in Revelation 12, to me this is very solid evidence.  The 2/3 that this does not include will be cut off and die, so this excludes them from being involved in either of these two groups.

Based on what we are told regarding the remnant of the seed, there is only one option remaining, believers.  This is supported by Revelation 13, in regards to the war against the saints for the exact same length of time, 3 1/2 years.  I'm really not seeing any other possibilities here given the time requirements.

 

On 1/17/2018 at 10:37 PM, Retrobyter said:

And, as I've said before in other threads, these four names are specifically mentioned in this order in the lineage of Yeshua`, indicating that the Resurrection has already occurred by this point in future history:

 

I don't disagree with you here, in fact, I think scripture tells us precisely when this occurred. 

 

Matthew 27:50 And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice and yielded up his spirit.

51 And behold, the curtain of the temple was torn in two, from top to bottom. And the earth shook, and the rocks were split. 52 The tombs also were opened. And many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised, 53 and coming out of the tombs after his resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many.

 

On 1/17/2018 at 10:37 PM, Retrobyter said:

What this tells me is that THEIR Resurrection happens BEFORE their conversion!

 

I am not following you here at all, how exactly do you reach that conclusion from the passage?

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Worthy Ministers
  • Followers:  9
  • Topic Count:  40
  • Topics Per Day:  0.01
  • Content Count:  6,543
  • Content Per Day:  1.07
  • Reputation:   2,427
  • Days Won:  1
  • Joined:  06/28/2007
  • Status:  Offline
  • Birthday:  10/28/1957

4 hours ago, wingnut- said:

Hey retro,

I agree with you on the above, I also believe the latter as we are grafted into the vine.

Shalom, wingnut-.

Good to hear that. So many Christians DON'T feel that way.

4 hours ago, wingnut- said:

On this we don't agree.  The way I see it, God made all of the languages when He confused them to begin with, and we don't really know what the original language even was.  What we do know is that He promised His words would stand forever, and to me that covers all languages as He knew that everyone did not speak the same one.

Another reason I disagree is based on personal experience, in that divine inspiration has given me knowledge of something that I would later learn was rooted in the original language, particularly in regards to the OT writings.  So the truth is revealed through the Spirit, and language is no barrier for Him.  From knowing Greek, I don't take issue with your version of the translation, but to me it says the exact same thing as the translated text I read in various bible versions I trust.

While God made all the languages, language itself doesn't always communicate what a person is thinking and feeling. This explains such phrases as "I was speechless," "words escape me," and "politicians can speak for hours and never say a thing!" We can sit beside a person who is grieving and never say a thing, and our presence can "speak" more comfort than words could ever convey.

Now, when I say the "original language," I'm talking about the language in which the Bible was originally written, either by the author himself or by a recorder of the words dictated by another. Therefore, I'm talking about ancient Hebrew, Aramaic, and some Koinee Greek, and we DO know what those original languages were.

Yes, God's words will stand forever, but those words as were recorded in one of the three: Hebrew, Aramaic, or Greek. God can PRESERVE His words through the translations, but the nuances of the words and the precise meaning of those words could be lost in translation. That's not to say that translations are "wrong"; they're just not COMPLETE in the translation. They convey the GIST of what God was saying, but not the complete message in all its fine details. They lose the "COLOR" of the words.

For instance, the Hebrew word "checed," spelled "chet-samekh-dalet," was often translated as "goodness," "kindness," and "lovingkindness" in the KJV but just as often the "covenant keeping" nature of the word gets lost in translation. Unless the context conveys that meaning, one might never understand that facet of the "lovingkindness" of God within that context.

4 hours ago, wingnut- said:

(To my statement, 'The point is this: the phrase "holders of Yeshua`s evidence" does NOT necessarily mean that they are already "believers"; Messianic Jews may be INCLUDED within those who are "keepers of God's commandments and holders of Yeshua`s evidence," but they may not be the ONLY ones!')

I'm not sure I am following you here.  Messianic Jews are believers, that is what makes them Messianic Jews, and I definitely don't believe they are the only ones because it also includes Gentile believers.

There are only two groups in question in this passage, the woman, and the remnant of her seed (offspring in some translations).  So if we determine the woman represents Israel, as in ethnic Israel by lineage, then we have to determine who the remnant of her seed is.  The woman is protected from the enemy for 3 1/2 years, so this removes them from the other group or any possibility of being confused with the other group.

No, you didn't follow me. Perhaps, I didn't say it well enough. The ones who are "keepers of God's commandments" are NOT, generally speaking, Gentile believers who call themselves "Christians."

Most Gentile "Christians" don't truly STRIVE to keep God's commandments; they trust that Yeshua` already did that for them in ways they never could fully do so. Therefore, they think it relatively unimportant to keep God's commandments. I'm not saying that's wrong; I'm just stating the facts.

Jews, on the other hand, whether Messianic or not, do still recognize the importance of keeping God's commandments, whether they can or not. Messianic Jews just know that it's not done to appease an angry God but to show our love and respect for Him and His Creation. They are, after all, still His commandments. We keep some of the 613 commandments, such as "Thou shalt not kill" and "Thou shalt not commit adultery," but others that involve the sacrifices of the Temple cannot be kept at this time.

Therefore, the "keepers of God's commandments" are children of Israel, and I'm saying that of these children of Israel, there may be some who are "holders of Yeshua`s evidence" without necessarily being believers ... YET. Sometimes, we assume too much based on what we THINK the author is saying. "Holders" does not necessarily mean "believers."

4 hours ago, wingnut- said:

We also have to account for Zechariah's prophecy regarding the nation of Israel, only 1/3 will be brought through the fire.  Since they are brought through the fire by the Lord, and that supports the information given regarding the woman in Revelation 12, to me this is very solid evidence.  The 2/3 that this does not include will be cut off and die, so this excludes them from being involved in either of these two groups.

Based on what we are told regarding the remnant of the seed, there is only one option remaining, believers.  This is supported by Revelation 13, in regards to the war against the saints for the exact same length of time, 3 1/2 years.  I'm really not seeing any other possibilities here given the time requirements.

No, now you're making the same mistake as Keras does. Just because only 1/3 will be "brought through the fire," that does NOT mean that they will be the only ones justified by God. It just means that only 1/3 will be PHYSICALLY RESCUED from their enemies when the Messiah comes. See, that's what "SAVED" means! When we trust God to forgive us by virtue of His Son's death as our Sacrifice for sin, we are not "saved"; we are "JUSTIFIED BY GOD!"

Gentile Christian believers have come to believe that death is the end of one's opportunity to accept the Messiah, but there IS such a thing as a RESURRECTION! For Gentile Christian believers, it may be true that their only chance at accepting the Messiah is during this lifetime.

HOWEVER, for the children of Israel, we have a promised Resurrection that PRECEDES their introduction to the Messiah. Now, if they choose to reject the Messiah after being introduced to Him, then they won't be entering into His Kingdom. However, should they choose to honor the Messiah as their King, they shall enter into His Kingdom and be welcomed as family.

4 hours ago, wingnut- said:

I don't disagree with you here, in fact, I think scripture tells us precisely when this occurred. 

 

Matthew 27:50 And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice and yielded up his spirit.

51 And behold, the curtain of the temple was torn in two, from top to bottom. And the earth shook, and the rocks were split. 52 The tombs also were opened. And many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised, 53 and coming out of the tombs after his resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many.

Actually, there are two different KINDS of Resurrection:

(1) the temporary, being-brought-back-to-life, one-step kind that Eliyahuw, Elishah, and Yeshua` performed in their respective time periods, and
(2) the permanent, transformation, two-step kind that is described in 1 Corinthians 15:35-57, of which Yeshua` ALONE was the "firstfruits!" (1 Cor. 15:23).

Matthew 27:50 is of the first (1) kind. They were not raised to life with Yeshua` when He arose; they were raised to life at His DEATH, almost as if the life that was released from Yeshua` could not be isolated and contained! These all had to die again, just as Elezar did ("Lazarus"), as discussed and plotted in John 12:9-11:

John 12:9-11 (KJV)

9 Much people of the Jews therefore knew that he was there: and they came not for Jesus' sake only, but that they might see Lazarus also, whom he had raised from the dead. 10 But the chief priests consulted that they might put Lazarus also to death; 11 Because that by reason of him many of the Jews went away, and believed on Jesus.

The two steps in the second (2) kind of Resurrection are...
(a) Raising the person back to life, and
(b) Giving the person immortality. ("The dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.")

Yeshua` arose never to die again!

4 hours ago, wingnut- said:

I am not following you here at all, how exactly do you reach that conclusion from the passage?

In Zechariah 12:10-14, the four names represent four different lifespans in Yeshua`s lineage. (See Luke 3:26, 29, and 31.) Yet, all are present to mourn for the Messiah when they see the piercings in His flesh. Therefore, the Resurrecion has already occurred as these who have already died are present to see Yeshua` return to Israel!

Zechariah 12:10-14 (KJV)

10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn. 11 In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon. 12 And the land shall mourn, every family apart; the family of the house of David apart, and their wives apart; the family of the house of Nathan apart, and their wives apart; 13 The family of the house of Levi apart, and their wives apart; the family of Shimei (which IS a "house") apart, and their wives apart; 14 All the families that remain, every family apart, and their wives apart.

Hope this helps.

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Royal Member
  • Followers:  39
  • Topic Count:  101
  • Topics Per Day:  0.02
  • Content Count:  7,673
  • Content Per Day:  1.32
  • Reputation:   7,358
  • Days Won:  67
  • Joined:  04/22/2008
  • Status:  Offline

On 1/21/2018 at 5:30 PM, Retrobyter said:

While God made all the languages, language itself doesn't always communicate what a person is thinking and feeling. This explains such phrases as "I was speechless," "words escape me," and "politicians can speak for hours and never say a thing!" We can sit beside a person who is grieving and never say a thing, and our presence can "speak" more comfort than words could ever convey.

Now, when I say the "original language," I'm talking about the language in which the Bible was originally written, either by the author himself or by a recorder of the words dictated by another. Therefore, I'm talking about ancient Hebrew, Aramaic, and some Koinee Greek, and we DO know what those original languages were.

Yes, God's words will stand forever, but those words as were recorded in one of the three: Hebrew, Aramaic, or Greek. God can PRESERVE His words through the translations, but the nuances of the words and the precise meaning of those words could be lost in translation. That's not to say that translations are "wrong"; they're just not COMPLETE in the translation. They convey the GIST of what God was saying, but not the complete message in all its fine details. They lose the "COLOR" of the words.

For instance, the Hebrew word "checed," spelled "chet-samekh-dalet," was often translated as "goodness," "kindness," and "lovingkindness" in the KJV but just as often the "covenant keeping" nature of the word gets lost in translation. Unless the context conveys that meaning, one might never understand that facet of the "lovingkindness" of God within that context.

 

Hey retro,

I understand you weren't specifically referencing the original language, but the languages the text was written in.  Sorry, I didn't express what I was saying well and can see how I threw you off a bit there.  As I had mentioned before, Greek I know well from growing up with it, but Hebrew or Aramaic I do not know.  What I was driving at, is that over the course of time on this forum, I have seen someone like yourself or others who are knowledgeable in those two languages point out meaning found within those words.  I already knew that, without having known the language, so this knowledge came through divine inspiration.

What I was driving at when I said the original language is easiest to display in this question.  What language does the Holy Spirit speak?

 

On 1/21/2018 at 5:30 PM, Retrobyter said:

No, you didn't follow me. Perhaps, I didn't say it well enough. The ones who are "keepers of God's commandments" are NOT, generally speaking, Gentile believers who call themselves "Christians."

Most Gentile "Christians" don't truly STRIVE to keep God's commandments; they trust that Yeshua` already did that for them in ways they never could fully do so. Therefore, they think it relatively unimportant to keep God's commandments. I'm not saying that's wrong; I'm just stating the facts.

 

For length of the post sake, I did not quote this entire part of your response, but will address most of what you posted in my response.  

I guess the first thing I would take issue with here is that you are assuming that "keepers of God's commandments" is a reference to the law of Moses.  I do not make that assumption, instead, I think that when Jesus gave us His two greatest commandments this is what the reference is about.  The Old Covenant was done away with, so to me considering this to be the law of Moses is going backward.

It is necessary for all believers to heed the two commandments Jesus gave us, which according to Him, Matthew 22:40 On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets.  The New Covenant overrides the Old, and if someone is not abiding in these two commandments then they are not holders of Yeshua's evidence either.  To me, this is precisely what that term means, "holders of Yeshua's evidence" are people of faith in Him, not the law of Moses.

If Christians are not striving to love God and others, then it is hard to accept that they are Christians at all.  We are known by our fruit, right?  And these were commandments from Jesus, right?  Not suggestions?

Now I'm not saying that grace does not factor into salvation at all, so don't misunderstand me here, because this has nothing to do with law.  We all stumble, and we all sin, but scripture to me seems fairly clear that anyone who has the Holy Spirit makes an effort to please God.  One standout factor to me is the resounding example surrounding love, how it is defined, the measure of importance placed on it, and that those who have no love are doing something wrong.

 

On 1/21/2018 at 5:30 PM, Retrobyter said:

No, now you're making the same mistake as Keras does. Just because only 1/3 will be "brought through the fire," that does NOT mean that they will be the only ones justified by God. It just means that only 1/3 will be PHYSICALLY RESCUED from their enemies when the Messiah comes. See, that's what "SAVED" means! When we trust God to forgive us by virtue of His Son's death as our Sacrifice for sin, we are not "saved"; we are "JUSTIFIED BY GOD!"

 

In response to this I just want to point out a few things.  It isn't simply based on the 1/3 being "brought through the fire", although I think you may be minimizing what that means.  In order to be brought through the fire, they have to be around when the fire comes, and that doesn't happen until He comes, and then again at the conclusion of the millennium.  So there are only two possibilities here, they are brought through the fire at His coming, or at the end of the millennium.  I believe it is referring to the former.

The other thing is in regards to the 2/3, Zechariah specifically states they are "cut off and die".  This phrase appears in the Old Testament over 200 times, and on not one of those occasions can it be described as anything but a very undesirable result.  In the New Testament it comes up a dozen times, and again, not once is it anything but undesirable.  They are not merely cut off, but they also die.

The last thing is, we are not simply Justified by God, we are justified by Faith in God, through Jesus Christ.  Now the woman is being nourished for 3 1/2 years, so I guess the question is, what do you think they are doing during this time?

 

On 1/21/2018 at 5:30 PM, Retrobyter said:

Gentile Christian believers have come to believe that death is the end of one's opportunity to accept the Messiah, but there IS such a thing as a RESURRECTION! For Gentile Christian believers, it may be true that their only chance at accepting the Messiah is during this lifetime.

HOWEVER, for the children of Israel, we have a promised Resurrection that PRECEDES their introduction to the Messiah. Now, if they choose to reject the Messiah after being introduced to Him, then they won't be entering into His Kingdom. However, should they choose to honor the Messiah as their King, they shall enter into His Kingdom and be welcomed as family.

 

The issue I have with this is, God is no respecter of persons, nor does He play favorites.  The children of Israel that preceded Him met Him following His death on the cross and made their choice at that time.  This is the passage I referenced from Matthew 27 and what it is talking about.  Every single person from the time Jesus walked this earth until His return have the facts and make their choice.  The children of Israel that witnessed His ministry and the miraculous things He did on this earth and still chose to reject Him made their choice.  They had Him in their presence, and still many rejected Him, but not all.

I'm not really sure what you mean by the resurrection preceding their introduction to Him if you are referring to the first resurrection John speaks of, because they were introduced to Him at the same time everyone else was.  And I also think that the 1/3 is figuring out the truth during their 3 1/2 year period in the wilderness.

 

On 1/21/2018 at 5:30 PM, Retrobyter said:

Actually, there are two different KINDS of Resurrection

 

I agree there are two kinds, and I agree with your definition of those two kinds.  The first kind is a return to mortality, which was done to display God's divine authority and was always done for the specific purpose of displaying that.  However I disagree with you on the occurrence in Matthew 27 being of the first type, it was definitely of the second type and Paul discusses this very thing when he points to Psalm 68.

 

Ephesians 4:8 Therefore it says,

“When he ascended on high he led a host of captives,
    and he gave gifts to men.”

9 (In saying, “He ascended,” what does it mean but that he had also descended into the lower regions, the earth? 10 He who descended is the one who also ascended far above all the heavens, that he might fill all things.)

 

He led a host of captives from the lower regions  which was the Old Testament saints that were released from their tombs upon His resurrection.  If you look at Psalm 68, you can see it is a large number of people, and He led them to heaven.  In I Corinthians, Paul tells us there are only two of these types of resurrection that will ever occur; Christ's, and the first resurrection found in Revelation.

 

I Corinthians 15:23 But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ.

 

Now maybe they are still waiting for their immortal bodies, but that doesn't align with people being able to see them, so it is more than likely that they have already received their immortal bodies.  It isn't specifically stated either way, but there is also no evidence to support that this group that came out of the tombs went back to a mortal routine.  Scripture here indicates that they did not.

 

On 1/21/2018 at 5:30 PM, Retrobyter said:

In Zechariah 12:10-14, the four names represent four different lifespans in Yeshua`s lineage. (See Luke 3:26, 29, and 31.) Yet, all are present to mourn for the Messiah when they see the piercings in His flesh. Therefore, the Resurrecion has already occurred as these who have already died are present to see Yeshua` return to Israel!

 

I don't disagree with you, thanks for clearing that up.  Of course, since  I disagree with you regarding what occurred upon Christ's resurrection, we are still looking at this from a different view.  Their resurrection has already occurred because they are the host of captives He led on high already.  Something specific to look at in the passage, it splits up the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem into two groups.  Why do you suppose that is?

Keep in mind that Jerusalem at this time has been given over to the gentiles, and one other important detail to me is this.  Who pierced Him?  The Romans did if I am not mistaken.  So I am not sure we can assume that this is directed at one group of people, or that we can conclude this means people who are already dead.  If we are going to look at that as literally meaning the people who drove the nails in, or pierced His side, then we cannot claim this is spoken to Jewish people, or at least not that specific part of it.  Let's not forget that the only group we see turn to the Lord in the entire book of Revelation is found in Jerusalem.  (Revelation 11)

Just some thoughts for you to consider, look forward to your feedback as always.

God bless

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Royal Member
  • Followers:  39
  • Topic Count:  101
  • Topics Per Day:  0.02
  • Content Count:  7,673
  • Content Per Day:  1.32
  • Reputation:   7,358
  • Days Won:  67
  • Joined:  04/22/2008
  • Status:  Offline

On 1/20/2018 at 9:52 AM, Retrobyter said:

There are a TON of nuances that are NOT considered in the "near prophetic future" viewpoints of most prophecy buffs. For instance, it is very clear to me that the word "soul" means an "air-breathing body." This means that one should be careful with one's terminology: a human being doesn't "HAVE a body"; he or she "IS a body," and he or she "IS a soul" while he or she is breathing, just as Adam was created:

Genesis 2:7 (KJV)

7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul (Hebrew: nefesh = "air-breathing being").

YHWH Elohlyim didn't "form the body of a man"; the Scriptures say He formed the MAN from the dust of the ground! Then, He breathed into his nostrils the "puff of life," and man became a living "air-breather!"

When one ceases to breathe, one ceases to be a "soul" - an "air-breather."

 

Hey brother, sorry for the delay in responding to this, but as always I give anything offered due consideration and thought.

In this case, I don't think it is that simple, we cannot just limit the soul to merely an air breather.  The reason being, this makes us the equivalent of any other air breather, such as a dog, elephant, rhino, etc.  Animals do not have a soul, but they are still air breathers, and when they cease breathing it is just the body that dies.  For people it is the same thing, it is the body that requires breathing in regards to oxygen, which makes the soul a spiritual aspect.

God didn't merely form man from the dust of the ground, we were created in His image, special.  When one ceases breathing, it is the body that dies.  We have to examine the difference between all air breathers, and nowhere are we told of animals receiving a breath of life from God.

 

On 1/20/2018 at 9:52 AM, Retrobyter said:

Throughout the Scriptures, we are NEVER given the promise of "going to Heaven when we die!"

 

Well, in regards to this I think we have some disagreement, so I will post some scripture that explains why this is not so.

 

Matthew 16:24 Then Jesus told his disciples, “If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. 25 For whoever would save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake will find it. 26 For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world and forfeits his soul? Or what shall a man give in return for his soul? 27 For the Son of Man is going to come with his angels in the glory of his Father, and then he will repay each person according to what he has done. 28 Truly, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.”

 

Verse 28 is the main point here, Jesus is talking to His disciples in this passage (not just the twelve necessarily).  Point is, He says that some will not taste death UNTIL they see Him coming.  Now we know that none of these men are still breathing air, so how do you explain that?  To me, the answer is given multiple times.

 

John 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also.

 

So where is He now?  And since their bodies are no longer breathing air, where are they?

 

Ecclesiastes 12:7 and the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.

 

The body no doubt returns to the ground, but that is not the end of existence.

I really have a hard time wrapping my mind around exactly what the soul is, but I do understand there are three parts to a man; the body, the soul, and the spirit.  The body is temporal, the spirit is eternal, and it appears to me the soul is somewhere in between the two, almost like three stages of existence.

 

God bless

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Worthy Ministers
  • Followers:  9
  • Topic Count:  40
  • Topics Per Day:  0.01
  • Content Count:  6,543
  • Content Per Day:  1.07
  • Reputation:   2,427
  • Days Won:  1
  • Joined:  06/28/2007
  • Status:  Offline
  • Birthday:  10/28/1957

On 1/23/2018 at 7:21 AM, wingnut- said:

I agree there are two kinds, and I agree with your definition of those two kinds.  The first kind is a return to mortality, which was done to display God's divine authority and was always done for the specific purpose of displaying that.  However I disagree with you on the occurrence in Matthew 27 being of the first type, it was definitely of the second type and Paul discusses this very thing when he points to Psalm 68.

 

Ephesians 4:8 Therefore it says,

“When he ascended on high he led a host of captives,
    and he gave gifts to men.”

9 (In saying, “He ascended,” what does it mean but that he had also descended into the lower regions, the earth? 10 He who descended is the one who also ascended far above all the heavens, that he might fill all things.)

 

He led a host of captives from the lower regions  which was the Old Testament saints that were released from their tombs upon His resurrection.  If you look at Psalm 68, you can see it is a large number of people, and He led them to heaven.  In I Corinthians, Paul tells us there are only two of these types of resurrection that will ever occur; Christ's, and the first resurrection found in Revelation.

 

Shabbat shalom, wingnut-

While I understand your take on this passage in Ephesians 4:8-9 (mine used to be similar), you're not thinking like a "son of Israel," yet. Consider the following:

Matthew 20:17-19 (KJV)

17 And Jesus going up to Jerusalem took the twelve disciples apart in the way, and said unto them, 18 Behold, we go up to Jerusalem; and the Son of man shall be betrayed unto the chief priests and unto the scribes, and they shall condemn him to death, 19 And shall deliver him to the Gentiles to mock, and to scourge, and to crucify him: and the third day he shall rise again.

We usually think two-dimensionally in terms of maps. We'll even say "up north" and "down south," but we must learn to think three-dimensionally! Several times in Scripture it is said that the children of Israel "went up to Jerusalem." The word "up" is there for a reason. The phrase is to be taken very literally. Jerusalem sits upon a mountain, and to go to the city meant that one must LITERALLY ASCEND to the city.

Even today, when one says that he or she is going to move to Israel, he or she is said to "make `aliyah." That means to ASCEND to Israel, specifically Jerusalem, the heart of Israel, the seat of their government, and the location of the ancient Temple.

Now, when you have a quotation made in the B'rit Chadashah (the NT) from the TaNaKh (the OT), be sure to look up the quotation and the surrounding context. You mentioned it, but I'm not sure that you've really looked at the psalm. Somehow, it is often assumed that Paul BORROWED Scripture and used it for his own purposes. But, Paul was a SCHOLAR and KNEW the TaNaKh as God's Word! He would not "use a text out of its context for a pretext," as it is said some preachers do today. He would NOT have contradicted the original text for ANY reason! The quotation in verse 8 above comes from SOMEWHERE, and one would be wise to look it up. One will find that it refers to quite a different time and a different interpretation. Now, you've noted that you know the passage comes from the 68th Psalm, but let's look at the whole Psalm. (It is, after all, a single psalm or song.)

Psalm 68 (JPS Tanakh)

1 For the Leader. A Psalm of David, a Song.

2 Let God arise, let His enemies be scattered;
And let them that hate Him flee before Him.
3 As smoke is driven away, so drive them away;
As wax melteth before the fire,
So let the wicked perish at the presence of God.
4 But let the righteous be glad, let them exult before God;
Yea, let them rejoice with gladness.

5 Sing unto God, sing praises to His name;
Extol Him that rideth upon the skies, whose name is the LORD;
And exult ye before Him.
6 A father of the fatherless, and a judge of the widows,
Is God in His holy habitation.
7 God maketh the solitary to dwell in a house;
He bringeth out the prisoners into prosperity; (the Exodus)
The rebellious dwell but in a parched land. (they died within the 40 years of wandering)
8 O God, when Thou wentest forth before Thy people,
When Thou didst march through the wilderness;

Selah

9 The earth trembled, the heavens also dropped at the presence of God; (the giving of the Covenant)
Even yon Sinai trembled at the presence of God, the God of Israel.

10 A bounteous rain didst Thou pour down, O God;
When Thine inheritance was weary, Thou didst confirm it.
11 Thy flock settled therein;
Thou didst prepare in Thy goodness for the poor, O God.

12 The Lord giveth the word;
The women that proclaim the tidings are a great host. (Miryam and the women sang praises)
13 Kings of armies flee, they flee;
And she that tarrieth at home divideth the spoil.

14 When ye lie among the sheepfolds,
The wings of the dove are covered with silver,
And her pinions with the shimmer of gold.
15 When the Almighty scattereth kings therein,
It snoweth in Zalmon.

16 A mountain of God (a superior mountain) is the mountain of Bashan (the Golan Heights);
A mountain of peaks is the mountain of Bashan (Mount Hermon).

17 Why look ye askance, ye mountains of peaks,
At the mountain which God hath desired for His abode? (a.k.a. Mount Zion)
Yea, the LORD will dwell therein for ever.

18 The chariots (chariotry) of God are myriads (20,000), even thousands upon thousands (of years);
The Lord is among them, as in Sinai, in holiness.
19 Thou hast ascended on high, Thou hast led captivity captive; (these are the captives of EGYPT being led away because they were GOD'S captives now!)
Thou hast received gifts among men, (the firstborn children were God's and the parents had to buy them back!)
Yea, among the rebellious also, that the LORD God might dwell there.

20 Blessed be the Lord, day by day He beareth our burden,
Even the God who is our salvation. (God who is our RESCUE)

Selah

21 God is unto us a God of deliverances;
And unto GOD the Lord belong the issues of death.
22 Surely God will smite through the head of His enemies,
The hairy scalp of him that goeth about in his guiltiness.
23 The Lord said: ‘I will bring back from Bashan,
I will bring them back from the depths of the sea;
24 That thy foot may wade through blood,
That the tongue of thy dogs may have its portion from thine enemies.’

25 They see Thy goings, O God,
Even the goings of my God, my King, in holiness.
26 The singers go before, the minstrels follow after,
In the midst of damsels playing upon timbrels.
27 ‘Bless ye God in full assemblies,
Even the Lord, ye that are from the fountain of Israel.’
28 There is Benjamin, the youngest, ruling them,
The princes of Judah their council,
The princes of Zebulun, the princes of Naphtali.
29 Thy God hath commanded thy strength;
Be strong, O God, Thou that hast wrought for us
30 Out of Thy temple at Jerusalem,
Whither kings shall bring presents unto Thee.
31 Rebuke the wild beast of the reeds,
The multitude of the bulls, with the calves of the peoples,
Every one submitting himself with pieces of silver;
He hath scattered the peoples that delight in war!
32 Nobles shall come out of Egypt; Ethiopia shall hasten to stretch out her hands unto God.

33 Sing unto God, ye kingdoms of the earth;
O sing praises unto the Lord;

Selah

34 To Him that rideth upon the heavens of heavens, which are of old;
Lo, He uttereth His voice, a mighty voice.
35 Ascribe ye strength unto God;
His majesty is over Israel,
And His strength is in the skies.
36 Awful is God out of thy holy places;
The God of Israel, He giveth strength and power unto the people;
Blessed be God.

So, this Psalm is NOT talking about Yeshua` leading "captives out of the captivity" of She'owl! David is talking about God leading the captives out of the captivity of EGYPT - the EXODUS!

When one lives on the delta in Egypt, one is right at sea level, very few feet above it. When God led the children of Israel to Mount Sinai, they were in the foothills of the mountain, which are nearly as tall as the mountain itself! (See Mount Sinai Mountain Information. This explains why there's some uncertainty as to the exact location where they encamped.)

You're also incorrect on two other counts:

First, look more carefully at Matthew 27:

Matthew 27:50-54 (KJV)

50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost. 51 And, behold,
1. the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and
2. the earth did quake, and
3. the rocks rent; 52 And
4. the graves were opened; and
5. many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
 53 And
6. came out of the graves after his resurrection, (and) went into the holy city, and
7. appeared unto many.
 
54 Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God.

In the tradition of the Hebrew and Aramaic languages, sentences frequently began with a connective, the vav ("v-") prefix usually translated as "and." Therefore, I separated this ONE long sentence at the "kai" connectives and numbered the parts. (Verse 53 only has two "kai's," the first word and the fifteenth word.) 

Numbers 1 through 5 happened at Yeshua`s DEATH.

Numbers 6 and 7 happened AFTER HIS RESURRECTION!

Number 5, "many bodies of the saints which slept arose," happened BEFORE His Resurrection! And, since Yeshua` was the firstfruits of the second kind of Resurrection - the ETERNAL-LIFE Resurrection, then their resurrections were of the first kind.

Verse 54 brings us back to the "present" in the narrative.

Second, Paul notes THREE Resurrections in 1 Corinthians 15:20-28:

1 Corinthians 15:20-28 (KJV)

20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order:

1. Christ the firstfruits; afterward
2. they that are Christ's at his coming. 24 Then 
3. cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 

25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

Don't let verse separations throw you off. Verse divisions weren't introduced until the 1500's. This is how it must be read if one is going to harmonize this passage with Revelation 20-22. It's NOT "the end" IS "His coming"; "the end" is SEPARATE FROM "His coming!" Indeed, the two events are separated by a THOUSAND YEARS, a.k.a, the MILLENNIUM!

To support this, remember what Yeshua` said in Matthew 25:

Matthew 25:31-33 (KJV)

31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory (brightness/fame), and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory (brightness/fame): 32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: 33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

Prior to this, He explained about the end of this age:

Matthew 13:24-30, 36-43 (KJV)

24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven (the Kingdom from the sky) is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field: 25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way. 26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also. 27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares? 28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up? 29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
...

36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field. 37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; 38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; 39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world (Greek: aioonos = "age"); and the reapers are the angels. 40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world (Greek: aioonos = "age"). 41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his (the Son-of-man's) kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; 42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father (God the Father). Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

Edited by Retrobyter
It's now the Shabbat again.
Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Royal Member
  • Followers:  39
  • Topic Count:  101
  • Topics Per Day:  0.02
  • Content Count:  7,673
  • Content Per Day:  1.32
  • Reputation:   7,358
  • Days Won:  67
  • Joined:  04/22/2008
  • Status:  Offline

4 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shabbat shalom, wingnut-

While I understand your take on this passage in Ephesians 4:8-9 (mine used to be similar), you're not thinking like a "son of Israel," yet.

 

Hey brother,

I first want to say, I agree with your breakdown on Psalm 68.  However, there are multiple occasions found in scripture where a passage points to more than one specific occurrence in time.  For example, take where Peter quotes from Joel regarding the Holy Spirit being poured out at Pentecost.  Peter states that the prophecy was fulfilled, but when you take Joel in context, clearly he is talking about the Second Coming.  So while Peter was correct, the prophecy is still future and will happen again, specifically in regards to the people of Israel.

The second thing I want to point out, is the context in which Paul quotes this passage, specifically what immediately follows.

 

Ephesians 4:9 (In saying, “He ascended,” what does it mean but that he had also descended into the lower regions, the earth? 10 He who descended is the one who also ascended far above all the heavens, that he might fill all things.)

 

It cannot be said that when "He ascended" relates to something on this earth when he is clear that He ascended far above all the heavens.  This is not Jerusalem on earth.  Also, Paul is talking about the Body of Christ leading up to this, so referencing the Exodus just doesn't hold up under that context.  There is also the passage from Peter to be reconciled in how we handle what is being spoken of here, and Matthew 27.

 

I Peter 3:18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit, 19 in which he went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison, 20 because they formerly did not obey, when God's patience waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through water. 21 Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers having been subjected to him.

 

4 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Numbers 1 through 5 happened at Yeshua`s DEATH.

Numbers 6 and 7 happened AFTER HIS RESURRECTION!

 

I agree with you on how Matthew 27 breaks down, but I think the passage in I Peter explains why this is.  Of course they couldn't be resurrected in a glorified state before He was, so naturally they could not go out into the city until He first appeared.

 

4 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Second, Paul notes THREE Resurrections in 1 Corinthians 15:20-28

 

I agree with you here as well, of course the third being the second resurrection John tells us about in Revelation, although I wouldn't want to be part of that one.  When I said two, it is because I was referring to His people being resurrected.

God bless

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Worthy Ministers
  • Followers:  9
  • Topic Count:  40
  • Topics Per Day:  0.01
  • Content Count:  6,543
  • Content Per Day:  1.07
  • Reputation:   2,427
  • Days Won:  1
  • Joined:  06/28/2007
  • Status:  Offline
  • Birthday:  10/28/1957

On 1/25/2018 at 1:23 PM, wingnut- said:

Hey brother, sorry for the delay in responding to this, but as always I give anything offered due consideration and thought.

In this case, I don't think it is that simple, we cannot just limit the soul to merely an air breather.  The reason being, this makes us the equivalent of any other air breather, such as a dog, elephant, rhino, etc.  Animals do not have a soul, but they are still air breathers, and when they cease breathing it is just the body that dies.  For people it is the same thing, it is the body that requires breathing in regards to oxygen, which makes the soul a spiritual aspect.

God didn't merely form man from the dust of the ground, we were created in His image, special.  When one ceases breathing, it is the body that dies.  We have to examine the difference between all air breathers, and nowhere are we told of animals receiving a breath of life from God.

Shabbat shalom, again, wingnut-.

A separate post deserves a separate answer. No problem on the delay; as you can see, I'm a little late on the response, too. It's hard when you work a secular job during the week to finish a post when you're being thorough. (I can't wait to retire!) Usually, I have to finish them on the weekend.

First, animals ARE "souls" just as we are. They, like us, do not "HAVE souls." They don't "HAVE souls" anymore than we do! 

And, "soul" = "air-breather." The two terms are exactly synonymous. The Hebrew word is "nefesh" and Strong's has it pretty well defined:

5315 nephesh (NEH-fesh). From naphash; properly, a breathing creature, i.e. Animal of (abstractly) vitality; used very widely in a literal, accommodated or figurative sense (bodily or mental) -- any, appetite, beast, body, breath, creature, X dead(-ly), desire, X (dis-)contented, X fish, ghost, + greedy, he, heart(-y), (hath, X jeopardy of) life (X in jeopardy), lust, man, me, mind, mortally, one, own, person, pleasure, (her-, him-, my-, thy-)self, them (your)-selves, + slay, soul, + tablet, they, thing, (X she) will, X would have it.

5314 naphash (naw-FASH). To be refreshed. A primitive root; to breathe; passively, to be breathed upon, i.e. (figuratively) refreshed (as if by a current of air) -- (be) refresh selves (-ed).

5314 is the root word and is a verb, and 5315 is a noun. And for clarity's sake, "creature" just means a "created being," not a "monster" or "deformed being" as in the movies. I transliterate 5315 "nefesh" with an "f" (for the sound, rather than a "ph" for the altered "pei," a "phei" and "f" is one letter rather than two) and 5314 "naafash" with an "aa" for the qamets ("aw" sound), an "f" for the "fei," and a single "a" for the patach ("ah" sound).

THAT'S what "soul" means.

The Hebrew word was used for animals in Genesis 1:20 and 21 for sea-going, air-breathing animals and in Genesis 1:24 for the land animals.

Genesis 1:20-25 (KJV)

20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature (Hebrew: nefesh) that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven. 21 And God created great whales, and every living creature (Hebrew: nefesh) that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good. 22 And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth. 23 And the evening and the morning were the fifth day.

24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature (Hebrew: nefesh) after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so. 25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

After God destroyed all air-breathing life upon the land by the Flood during Noach's day, God said this:

Genesis 9:8-11 (KJV)

8 And God spake unto Noah, and to his sons with him, saying, 9 And I, behold, I establish my covenant with you, and with your seed after you; 10 And with every living creature (Hebrew: nefesh) that is with you, of the fowl, of the cattle, and of every beast of the earth with you; from all that go out of the ark, to every beast of the earth. 11 And I will establish my covenant with you; neither shall all flesh be cut off any more by the waters of a flood; neither shall there any more be a flood to destroy the earth.

Just because the translation word used in this version was "creature" instead of "soul" doesn't negate the fact that "nefesh" is used for BOTH translation words.

On 1/25/2018 at 1:23 PM, wingnut- said:

Well, in regards to this I think we have some disagreement, so I will post some scripture that explains why this is not so.

Matthew 16:24 Then Jesus told his disciples, “If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. 25 For whoever would save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake will find it. 26 For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world and forfeits his soul? Or what shall a man give in return for his soul? 27 For the Son of Man is going to come with his angels in the glory of his Father, and then he will repay each person according to what he has done. 28 Truly, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.”

Verse 28 is the main point here, Jesus is talking to His disciples in this passage (not just the twelve necessarily).  Point is, He says that some will not taste death UNTIL they see Him coming.  Now we know that none of these men are still breathing air, so how do you explain that?  To me, the answer is given multiple times.

This is a common mistake, but it is easily corrected. Look at the ENTIRE context, spanning chapter divisions:

Matthew 16:24-17:13 (KJV)

24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. 25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. 26 For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul? 27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

1 And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart, 2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light. 3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him. 4 Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias. 5 While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him. 6 And when the disciples heard it, they fell on their face, and were sore afraid. 7 And Jesus came and touched them, and said, Arise, and be not afraid. 8 And when they had lifted up their eyes, they saw no man, save Jesus only.

9 And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead. 10 And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come? 11 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things. 12 But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them. 13 Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist.

Now, consider the "synoptic Gospels":

Mark 8:34-9:13 (KJV)

34 And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. 35 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it. 36 For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? 37 Or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul? 38 Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.

1 And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power.

2 And after six days Jesus taketh with him Peter, and James, and John, and leadeth them up into an high mountain apart by themselves: and he was transfigured before them3 And his raiment became shining, exceeding white as snow; so as no fuller on earth can white them. 4 And there appeared unto them Elias with Moses: and they were talking with Jesus. 5 And Peter answered and said to Jesus, Master, it is good for us to be here: and let us make three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias. 6 For he wist not what to say; for they were sore afraid. 7 And there was a cloud that overshadowed them: and a voice came out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him. 8 And suddenly, when they had looked round about, they saw no man any more, save Jesus only with themselves.

9 And as they came down from the mountain, he charged them that they should tell no man what things they had seen, till the Son of man were risen from the dead. 10 And they kept that saying with themselves, questioning one with another what the rising from the dead should mean. 11 And they asked him, saying, Why say the scribes that Elias must first come? 12 And he answered and told them, Elias verily cometh first, and restoreth all things; and how it is written of the Son of man, that he must suffer many things, and be set at nought. 13 But I say unto you, That Elias is indeed come, and they have done unto him whatsoever they listed, as it is written of him.

Luke 9:23-36

23 And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me. 24 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it. 25 For what is a man advantaged, if he gain the whole world, and lose himself, or be cast away? 26 For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he shall come in his own glory, and in his Father's, and of the holy angels. 27 But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God.

28 And it came to pass about an eight days after these sayings, he took Peter and John and James, and went up into a mountain to pray. 29 And as he prayed, the fashion of his countenance was altered, and his raiment was white and glistering. 30 And, behold, there talked with him two men, which were Moses and Elias: 31 Who appeared in glory, and spake of his decease which he should accomplish at Jerusalem. 32 But Peter and they that were with him were heavy with sleep: and when they were awake, they saw his glory, and the two men that stood with him. 33 And it came to pass, as they departed from him, Peter said unto Jesus, Master, it is good for us to be here: and let us make three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias: not knowing what he said. 34 While he thus spake, there came a cloud, and overshadowed them: and they feared as they entered into the cloud. 35 And there came a voice out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him. 36 And when the voice was past, Jesus was found alone. And they kept it close, and told no man in those days any of those things which they had seen.

In all three cases, the promise that some standing there would not taste death until they see the Kingdom come is IMMEDIATELY followed by the vision of the Messiah standing in His glory among the resurrected, and Matthew gives the additional information that this was a VISION of the future, not the future itself. Therefore, this was a prophecy about the TRANSFIGURATION, not about the actual coming of God's Kingdom! 

On 1/25/2018 at 1:23 PM, wingnut- said:

John 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also.

So where is He now?  And since their bodies are no longer breathing air, where are they?

In John 14:1-3, it's important that one recognize that people too often associate the place which He has gone to prepare with where He takes us to Himself when He comes again. They are simply not the same. It always comes back to carefully considering the context:

John 14:1-3 (KJV)

1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. 2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Right now, Yeshua` said that He was going to His Father's house to prepare a place for us. We are then told by John again,...

Revelation 21:2-3 (KJV)

2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle (Greek: hee skeenee = "the tent") of God is with men, and he will dwell (Greek: skeenoosei = "will tent") with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

And, if one goes back to Hebrews 11, one sees that ...

Hebrews 11:8-10 (KJV)

8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went. 9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles (Greek: en skeenais katoikeesas = "established-a-home in tents") with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise: 10For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God. 

So, like Avraham, God will also establish a home in a tent when the New Jerusalem descends to earth. THAT is the Father's house!

However, that house is currently still under construction as Yeshua` is still "PREPARING A PLACE FOR US!" So, the answers to your questions are...

1. Yeshua` is still within the New Jerusalem currently under construction "above the sky" ("in outer space"). (See Hebrews 12:22.)
2. Since their (the disciples') bodies are no longer breathing air and the Messiah has not yet returned, then they are still in the graves awaiting the RESURRECTION!

And, neither the questions nor the answers are directly related to each other.

On 1/25/2018 at 1:23 PM, wingnut- said:

Ecclesiastes 12:7 and the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.

The body no doubt returns to the ground, but that is not the end of existence.

Which leads to the second word that must be discussed: The "spirit." The Hebrew word for "spirit" is ruwach, and it simply means the "wind."

7307 (noun) ruwach (roo-wakh). From 7306 (verb) ruwach; wind; by resemblance breath, i.e. A sensible (or even violent) exhalation; figuratively, life, anger, unsubstantiality; by extension, a region of the sky; by resemblance spirit, but only of a rational being (including its expression and functions) -- air, anger, blast, breath, X cool, courage, mind, X quarter, X side, spirit((-ual)), tempest, X vain, ((whirl-))wind(-y).

There's no personality in a wind or a breath. It's simply air that we exhale! God breathed into Adam's nostrils the breath of life, and when we die, we "give up the ghost" or "give up the breath," and we exhale for the "last" time. When that happens, our breath returns to God who gave it.

That MIGHT have been the end of our existence, EXCEPT that God REMEMBERS who we were! And, when we are resurrected, it is an act of CREATION! God creates our bodies - us - back the way we were before death.

On 1/25/2018 at 1:23 PM, wingnut- said:

I really have a hard time wrapping my mind around exactly what the soul is, but I do understand there are three parts to a man; the body, the soul, and the spirit.  The body is temporal, the spirit is eternal, and it appears to me the soul is somewhere in between the two, almost like three stages of existence.

 

God bless

Actually, there are TWO parts to a person, the body and the breath (the "spirit"). The "soul" is a COMBINATION of the two. When you have a body that has breath, you have an air-breathing creature; therefore, when you have a body that has "spirit," you have a "soul."

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Senior Member
  • Followers:  8
  • Topic Count:  46
  • Topics Per Day:  0.01
  • Content Count:  944
  • Content Per Day:  0.22
  • Reputation:   170
  • Days Won:  0
  • Joined:  05/05/2012
  • Status:  Offline
  • Birthday:  04/20/1980

Dear Wingnut and Retro,

just a few answers to Keras, as a little break in your discussion, I hope you don't mind...

Hi Keras,

On 6.1.2018 at 7:55 PM, Keras said:

The idea of a Jewish Israeli redemption is [...] false.   [It won't] happen.

Just want to point out that Romans 11:26 as understood in a litaral manner seems to claim the opposite:

 

"and in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written, 'The Deliverer will come from Zion, he will banish ungodliness from Jacob'" Romans 11:26

 

... we've discussed Romans 11:26 here, just want to point that out, no need to go through the whole debate again.

 

On 6.1.2018 at 7:55 PM, Keras said:

95% + have chosen [...] to reject Jesus, as all their ancestors have done. 

"all their ancestors..."? Abraham, for instance, got to know Jesus personally if I know well. He did the very opposite of rejecting him.

 

On 6.1.2018 at 10:04 AM, Keras said:

But the Jews are not 'all of Israel'. Romans 9:6-8

Romans 9:6, in my opinion, solely explains that not every Israeli is really an Israeli. Part of them doesn't really belong to them, according to this verse... but part of them does.

 

On 6.1.2018 at 7:55 PM, Keras said:

Contrary to what the OP promotes, God does NOT love or will ever redeem a sinner,

In my opinion, it looks like the opposite is true:

"but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. " Romans 5:8.
 

Regards,

Thomas

 

Edited by thomas t
highlighting the Bible verse
  • Thumbs Up 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...