No one ever goes to Heaven in NT times either!

[HAZARD]

6 minutes ago, simplejeff said:

Sorry, no.   Not only does it not say that,  it is not in harmony with all Scripture if it did.  Keep seeking.....

Sorry, Yes it does say this in Scriptures. Jesus flesh and bone body went into the tomb and His spirit actually descended into Hell while His body was in the tomb. This is the truth. Maybe you should keep seeking? 

In Matt. 12:40; For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

Eph. 4:7-11, we read that Christ went "in the heart of the Earth" and into the lower parts of the Earth" during the time His body was in the tomb. This is what David by the Holy Spirit meant in Ps. 16:10; Acts 2:25-27, "For thou wilt not leave my soul in Hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption" in the grave.  

During this time in Hell, Christ preached to the spirits in PRISON (1 Peter 3:19).

 1 Peter 3:19, By which also He went and preached unto the spirits in prison; 

[simplejeff]

Notice how you immediately changed the subject,  and still didn't show anything to change the fact that your previous post is still in error ?

[HAZARD]

You have said a lot and not one scripture? 

The thread heading is, 

No one ever goes to Heaven in NT times either!

 

I mentioned that fact that Jesus went to hell because when He ascended on High, he led captivity captive.

In other words, people have done since Christs resurrection, and still do go to Heaven in N.T. times.

Ephesians 4:8, Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

These saints that were taken to Heaven with Christ were the saints who had died from Able to Christ, and who were held captivity by Satan in Paradise under the Earth until Christ conquered death, hell and the grave liberating them (Heb. 2:14-15; Luke 16:23). They were still alive in soul and spirit since their physical death, but held captive, which proves the immortality of the soul. He would not have led captive extinct souls. Now when a Christian dies he does not go into the lower parts of the earth to be held captive, but goes to Heaven to live and wait the resurrection of the body (2 Cor. 5:8; Phil. 1:21-24; Heb. 12:22-23; Rev. 6:9-11).

[simplejeff]

On 2/6/2018 at 10:43 PM, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, everyone.

I know that this will be unpopular and some will say downright alarming, but we are NOT told that we go to heaven when we die. As I've said in other threads, the "soul" is NOT independent from the "body." Genesis 2:7 bears repeating:

Maybe bears repeating,  maybe not - it is difficult to tell here ....  but yes,  those seeking for the Truth will find it if they don't give up - that is YHVH'S Promise and cannot be broken, ever.

[Retrobyter]

On 2/7/2018 at 11:27 AM, ScottA said:

Bravo - you have learned to define the mechanics of manifestation!

But...you have not understood.

"All things come in parables." That is why the "dual" properties. But every inch and ouch and breath of it - is a mere "image" for the sake of revelation, in God's revelation of Himself and of all that is "in Him", including us.

Nonetheless, you have made your focus the [object] of the parable, rather than the [subject] of the parable - and missed the reality of God and His creation: This is not what is real, but only points to that which is real. Again, it is all a mere "image." You looked in the wrong direction, and found dust.

And you are also wrong. Until Christ, "the kingdom of heaven suffered violence", but now is "at hand." Thus, "To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord."

Shalom, ScottA.

No, what you are purporting is the erroneous interpretation method known as the allegorical interpretation of Scripture. "All things do NOT come in parables!" Where did you ever get the notion that it was otherwise?! Most Scripture passages are NOT to be interpreted as some sort of "spiritual" allegory, "spiritual" falsely so-called.

The better method is the grammatical-historical method of interpretation, which is often erroneously called the "literal method of interpretation" because it employs a literal interpretation for much of the Scriptures. However, one should recognize that the grammatical-historical method also employs allegories, as allegories are permissible components of grammar. Just the same, analogies are identified as such, either overtly or implicitly. But, the overuse of allegory leads to a misunderstanding of the thing or things by which the analogy is compared, thus weakening the allegory! It's an example of "too much of a good thing." It CHEAPENS the allegories!

"At hand" does NOT, by the way, mean "IN hand." It means "WITHIN ONE'S GRASP!" This phrase was used because, while Yeshua` was here literally upon the earth, making a legitimate offer of the Kingdom to the children of Israel, and in particular to His own tribe, Y'hudah (Judah), the Kingdom was indeed "within their grasp!" All they had to do was to reach out and accept it! Instead, they chose to reject and KILL the very Messiah of God through whom that Kingdom could have become a reality in their lifetime! Notice how early in Yeshua`s "ministry" (His offer of the Kingdom to the children of Israel) too place!

Mark 1:14-15 (KJV)

14 Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching (heralding as a town cryer) the gospel (good news) of the kingdom of God, 15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand (within your grasp): repent ye (change your minds), and believe the gospel (good news).

While the TIME when the offer could be made was fulfilled, the GIVING OF THE KINGDOM ITSELF was and is NOT fulfilled, yet!

Also, the Creation week does not lend itself to an allegorical interpretation; it is a CONCRETE, LITERAL revelation of how this earth's biosphere and the life within it were created. It is God explaining EXACTLY how He caused all things to be created or formed. When one says that "the evening and the morning" were NOT a single "day" revealed by a 24-hour period of "morning and evening," he or she is calling God a LIAR! And, that's dangerous ground at best! God, through Mosheh (Moses) confirmed this in Exodus 20:11 and 31:17:

Exodus 20:8-11 (KJV)

8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: 10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: 11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it. (This was the first WEEK consisting of seven, LITERAL, twenty-four-hour days!)

Exodus 31:12-17 (KJV)

12 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, 13 Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the LORD that doth sanctify you. 14 Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people. 15 Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death. 16 Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant. 17 It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.

Don't be so quick to dismiss the truth for the sake of some allegory!

[ScottA]

1 hour ago, Retrobyter said:

No, what you are purporting is the erroneous interpretation method known as the allegorical interpretation of Scripture. "All things do NOT come in parables!" Where did you ever get the notion that it was otherwise?! Most Scripture passages are NOT to be interpreted as some sort of "spiritual" allegory, "spiritual" falsely so-called.

I have not "purported" an "interpretation" as you presume, but rather shared what was given to me from God. But since you do not know and do ask, it is a quote:

Mark 4:11

And He said to them, “To you it has been given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God; but to those who are outside, all things come in parables,

[inchrist]

11 hours ago, ScottA said:

"Who told you that you were naked?"

Again, this is wrong. For Christ did not commit His body to the Father, but His spirit only.

Paul did right here

 For we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands. ² Meanwhile we groan, longing to be clothed instead with our heavenly dwelling, ³ because when we are clothed, we will not be found naked

Let me use your example

1) earthly tent we live in is destroyed

For Christ did not commit His body to the Father,

Here is Christ more fully clothed

2) we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands. ²

John 20:17 ►

Verse (Click for Chapter) New International Version Jesus said, "Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, 'I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.'"

 

but His spirit only.

How does that show Christ more fully clothed and not naked?

 

[ScottA]

4 minutes ago, inchrist said:

Paul did right here

 For we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands. ² Meanwhile we groan, longing to be clothed instead with our heavenly dwelling, ³ because when we are clothed, we will not be found naked

Let me use your example

1) earthly tent we live in is destroyed

For Christ did not commit His body to the Father,

Here is Christ more fully clothed

2) we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands. ²

John 20:17 ►

Verse (Click for Chapter) New International Version Jesus said, "Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, 'I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.'"

 

 

How does that show Christ more fully clothed and not naked?

 

I used one parable to show you the error of your own use of a parable, because you seemed to be into it. And when I did, you did not even see Satan in the midst. But clearly you are viewing the object of the parable and not the subject of it. Nonetheless, they are both parables, and prove nothing by the object...as the object of all parables is not the subject.

Which was my point... Your whole premise is relative to the world (the object), and not the kingdom (the subject). Like I said, you are looking in the wrong place, and therefore have the wrong answers.

[inchrist]

33 minutes ago, ScottA said:

I used one parable to show you the error of your own use of a parable, because you seemed to be into it. And when I did, you did not even see Satan in the midst. But clearly you are viewing the object of the parable and not the subject of it. Nonetheless, they are both parables, and prove nothing by the object...as the object of all parables is not the subject.

Which was my point... Your whole premise is relative to the world (the object), and not the kingdom (the subject). Like I said, you are looking in the wrong place, and therefore have the wrong answers.

What are you on about?

This isn't even a parable 

For Christ did not commit His body to the Father, but His spirit only

how is that a parable?

spirit certainly returns to God yes

it's states also here....

Bible > Ecclesiastes > Chapter 12 > Verse 7 ◄ Ecclesiastes 12:7 ► Verse (Click for Chapter) New International Version and the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it

However this lacks evidence of consciousness in the hereafter

And it is not what Paul is talking about at all

1 Cor 15 There are also heavenly bodies and there are earthly bodies; but the splendor of the heavenly bodies is one kind

It's the exact same teaching

For while we are in this tent, we groanand are burdened, because we do not wish to be unclothed but to be clothed instead with our heavenly dwelling, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life. ⁵ Now the one who has fashioned us for this very purpose is God, who has given us the Spirit as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.

⁶ Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord. ⁷ For we live by faith, not by sight. ⁸ We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord

Paul wishes to be RESURRECTED at home with the Lord.

To be absent from the body is to be RESURRECTED with the Lord 

[ScottA]

8 hours ago, inchrist said:

What are you on about?

This isn't even a parable 

For Christ did not commit His body to the Father, but His spirit only

how is that a parable?

spirit certainly returns to God yes

it's states also here....

Bible > Ecclesiastes > Chapter 12 > Verse 7 ◄ Ecclesiastes 12:7 ► Verse (Click for Chapter) New International Version and the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it

However this lacks evidence of consciousness in the hereafter

And it is not what Paul is talking about at all

1 Cor 15 There are also heavenly bodies and there are earthly bodies; but the splendor of the heavenly bodies is one kind

It's the exact same teaching

For while we are in this tent, we groanand are burdened, because we do not wish to be unclothed but to be clothed instead with our heavenly dwelling, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life. ⁵ Now the one who has fashioned us for this very purpose is God, who has given us the Spirit as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.

⁶ Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord. ⁷ For we live by faith, not by sight. ⁸ We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord

Paul wishes to be RESURRECTED at home with the Lord.

To be absent from the body is to be RESURRECTED with the Lord 

Never mind. I am happy to discuss it with you but you jumped in and I addressed the greater matter as if responding to the OP, and now you don't get the bigger picture because you have not been in it from the start. So, if you want to pin-point what it is you are referring to, I will give it a go, but we are already off track.

As for "heavenly bodies", that is your answer right there. All things "heavenly" are spirit, just as God is spirit.