No one ever goes to Heaven in NT times either!

[Retrobyter]

2 hours ago, eileenhat said:

I disagree with this.

Heaven sits upon the firmament.  It is within 'Heaven' God sits on his throne.  It is referred to as the third heaven

The second heaven , ie. where we see 'stars'/lights in the sky, is located between the flat earth and the 3rd Heaven.

The only reason for current disagreement is the non recognition that we live in the firmament and not in 'an universe', as freemason's* now describe.  Look it up.

You have to doubt the many that had visions of heaven and or actual visitations in the old testament, in order to accept the current freemason ideas of many planets, which eliminates those experiences as real.

*Wisdom comes from knowing thine enemy.

Shalom, again, eileenhat.

"Heaven" doesn't sit upon the "firmament"; the "firmament" (raqiya`, which means "expanse") was NAMED "heaven" (shaamayim) by  God! The "firmament" was the expanse of gases between the waters above the expanse and the waters below the expanse before the Flood of Noach's time. After the Flood, there were no more waters above the expanse, and the expanse was allowed to expand farther until it reached the limits of its own gravitational attraction with earth, around 200 miles or so. None of the particles of matter that make up the earth's atmosphere are moving fast enough to exceed their gravitational attraction with earth, and so they stay within that well of atmosphere above the surface of the earth.

As far as the "third heaven" is concerned, read what I wrote to wingnut-.

Oh, and it's not a "flat earth"; it only SEEMS flat because the globe of this planet is so much larger than we mere specks of humanity are! If you had a ball that had an 1000-foot diameter and a fly landed upon its surface, the ball would seem flat to the fly, just like the earth seems flat to us!

[Retrobyter]

19 minutes ago, eileenhat said:

This is a complicated prophecy referring to this time...as we are in the time of the last 'Trump', as in when we elected President 'Trump's', Nov. 8th, 2016 time.  There are no accidents.

Shalom, again, eileenhat.

There may be "no accidents," but neither does God allow you to play infantile word games with His HOLY Word! President Donald Trump is NOT EQUAL to the "last trump!" How ridiculous can one get?! The Greek of 1 Corinthians 15:52 uses the words "eschatee salpiggi," the words pronounced "es-khah'-tay sal'-ping-ghee." Are you going to sit there and tell me that Trump's real last name is "Salpiggi" or "Salpingi?" The old English word "trump" was short for "trumpeting." But, we don't know that President Trump's last name comes from a "trumpeting," a "trumpet blast," or the "trumpet" itself! These meanings are considered archaeic. There are other meanings to the word that could be the source of his name! It can also mean to "outshine" something else, like in the game of bridge when one suit "outshines" or "trumps" the other suits!

When looking up the word "Trump (surname)" online, one will find that it's ...

a German surname, from a word for "drum"; it is notable as the surname of the American entrepreneurial Trump family,[1] but has an older presence in the United States via the 18th-century Amish migration from the Palatinate to Pennsylvania.

And, so as to remove any doubt, the number refers to this footnote:

1. ^ Gwenda Blair, The Trumps: Three Generations That Built An Empire (2001), p. 26. See also. "Why Donald Trump trumps Donald Drumpf". The Boston Globe. Retrieved 3 March 2016.

19 minutes ago, eileenhat said:

Do you recall that day?

Because if you do you witnessed a miracle sent by God to his children to announce the fulfillment of 1 Corinth. 15:51-52.

Only a week or so prior on Oct. 31st, 2016, God allowed me to witness the fulfillment of scripture while he saved those found in the book of life and saved them, namely, the Church of Philadelphia inhabitants, ie. the USA.

It is a mystery and I detailed its occurrence and began to detail relevance when the mods obliterated it from view.

So, people still rather be 'raptured' than follow Bible scripture which describes no such happening.  Rev. 3 is very clear the Church of Philadelphia is saved, during the 7 years of Jacob's trouble.  Can not be clearer.  It is not a rapture event.  No one exits, stage 'heaven'/left.

We stay with Jesus and his 'rod of iron' rulership per Rev. 12.

What is a mystery is this 'change in a twinkling of an eye'.  We change alright, we changed from 'gentiles' to full God temple 'membership', in USA (only).  As God's followers that are saved are only those belonging to a Church that God proclaims is named Philadelphia in Rev. 3:7-13.  As once he named geographic locations for his churches, so too today does he name geographic locations, but only Philadelphia is recognizable (ie. 'clued' to us).   Much is kept hidden until such time it can be detailed in Revelation, hence understanding develops as key events become 'witnessed'.

This 'change' elevated us and began a new covenant, one that promises release from satan's stranglehold on everyone's life here on earth.

Evidence will erupt and is for this is the time all enemies of USA are being rounded up per Mark taylor and Q anon, both excellent true sources of what is occurring right outside public view.

Wait and see.

Hmmmm.... I can see why the moderators "obliterated" such allegorical nonsense. Stick to the Scriptures as written and quit trying to see something in them that others haven't seen before.

[ytLiJC]

17 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, ytLiJC.

A study on 2 Corinthians 12:1-4 is how this all began! The question of "What is the 'third heaven?'" gave rise to an understanding that it is NOT as was stated so suscinctly in the center margin of the old Scofield Reference Bible (KJV) on page 1238:

He states flatly (and without a Bible reference) that ...
the first heaven is “of clouds,”
the second heaven is “of stars,” and
the third heaven is “God’s abode.”

BUT, there are problems with this understanding: WHERE CAN ONE GO WHERE GOD IS NOT?! David said it this way:

Psalm 139:1-13 (KJV)

1 {To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David.} O LORD, thou hast searched me, and known me.
2 Thou knowest my downsitting and mine uprising, thou understandest my thought afar off.
3 Thou compassest my path and my lying down, and art acquainted with all my ways.
4 For there is not a word in my tongue, but, lo, O LORD, thou knowest it altogether.
5 Thou hast beset me behind and before, and laid thine hand upon me.
6 Such knowledge is too wonderful for me; it is high, I cannot attain unto it.
7 Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence?
8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.
9 If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea;
10 Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me.
11 If I say, Surely the darkness shall cover me; even the night shall be light about me.
12 Yea, the darkness hideth not from thee; but the night shineth as the day: the darkness and the light are both alike to thee.
13 For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb.

So, how is there a "God's abode?"

Even Shlomoh (Solomon) said at the dedication of the Temple, the "House of God,"

1 Kings 8:27-30 (KJV)

27 But will God indeed dwell on the earth? behold, the heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain thee; how much less this house that I have builded? 28 Yet have thou respect unto the prayer of thy servant, and to his supplication, O LORD my God, to hearken unto the cry and to the prayer, which thy servant prayeth before thee to day: 29 That thine eyes may be open toward this house night and day, even toward the place of which thou hast said, My name shall be there: that thou mayest hearken unto the prayer which thy servant shall make toward this place. 30 And hearken thou to the supplication of thy servant, and of thy people Israel, when they shall pray toward this place: and hear thou in heaven thy dwelling place: and when thou hearest, forgive.

There IS a better understanding of what the "third heaven" is:

2 Peter 3:1-13 (KJV)

1 This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance: 2 That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:

3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, 4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. 5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: 6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: 7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in allholy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Peter tells us that the first heavens were the skies over the earth before the Flood.
The second heavens are the skies over the earth in which we are now.
The third heavens are the new heavens - the new skies - over the earth wherein will dwell righteousness.

Written suscinctly, this becomes...

1st heaven or sky
FLOOD
2nd heaven or sky
FIRE
3rd heaven or sky

It's not a "third heaven" spatially; it's a third heaven SEQUENTIALLY IN TIME! I think it's better to take Peter's words over Scofield's words.

Having said this, let's go back and re-examine 2 Cor. 12:1-4.

In verses 2 and 4, we see forms of the word "harpazoo":

726 harpazoo (har-pad'-zo). From a derivative of haireomai; to seize (in various applications) -- catch (away, up), pluck, pull, take (by force).

2 Corinthians 12:1-4 (KJV)

1 It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord. 2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up (Greek: harpagenta = "having been snatched away") to the third heaven. 3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) 4 How that he was caught up (heerpagee = "he was snatched away") into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

In this passage of Scripture, note that there is NO word for "up" actually in these verses. This "man in Christ," probably Paul himself, had a VISION OF THE FUTURE, as many prophets of God did before him!

This also involves the understanding of WHERE, or rather WHEN, "paradise" will be. In Revelation, we find it mentioned:

Revelation 2:7 (KJV)

7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

We are also told where the "tree of life" will be:

Revelation 21:10-22:5 (KJV)

10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, 11 Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal; 12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel: 13 On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates. 14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

15 And he that talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city, and the gates thereof, and the wall thereof. 16 And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal. 17 And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel. 18 And the building of the wall of it was of jasper: and the city was pure gold, like unto clear glass. 19 And the foundations of the wall of the city were garnished with all manner of precious stones. The first foundation was jasper; the second, sapphire; the third, a chalcedony; the fourth, an emerald; 20 The fifth, sardonyx; the sixth, sardius; the seventh, chrysolite; the eighth, beryl; the ninth, a topaz; the tenth, a chrysoprasus; the eleventh, a jacinth; the twelfth, an amethyst. 21 And the twelve gates were twelve pearls; every several gate was of one pearl: and the street of the city was pure gold, as it were transparent glass.

22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it. 23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof. 24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it. 25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there. 26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it. 27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb. 2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. 3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him: 4 And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads. 5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.

Therefore, again, this species of the "tree of life" will exist in the New Jerusalem, which has its description usually assigned to "heaven."

Now, look at the word "paradise," a transliterated word from the Greek and that from the Hebrew in turn:

3857 paradeisos (par-a-di'-sos). Of Oriental origin (compare pardeec); a park, i.e. (specially), an Eden (place of future happiness, "paradise") -- paradise.

And, this entry points us to the Hebrew dictionary of Strong's Concordance:

6508 pardeec (par-dace'). Of foreign origin; a park -- forest, orchard.

Therefore, we get a cross section of ...

STREET - PARK (PARADISE) - RIVER - PARK (PARADISE) - STREET

... with the parks and river in the median of the street!

I believe that Paul was telling us he was snatched away to the New Jerusalem in a vision, only he didn't know if it was just a vision or if he had actually traveled into the future. Such is the nature of prophecy given to a prophet.

 

reading and literal interpretation alone cannot reveal some things to us, but faith is the thing through which all things can be revealed to us

(maybe) you know that in every country there are two main categories of people - rulers and subjects, doctors and patients, people serving and people served, etc.; so is the spiritual situation in God - there are people working for overall salvation/life's provision and people receiving salvation/paradisaical life; the first ones live in the "third heaven", while others live in the "second heaven" - it is like the difference between the white house (where the president and his wife live) and an ordinary house (where one ordinary family lives) (- i don't say it is same, but it is somewhat similar, because people in the third heaven rejoice in the overall salvation/life's provision, while people in the second heaven enjoy receiving/having paradisaical life, and the third heaven is in the second one in a way similar to how the white house is located in washington/us)

so, what we read in Revelation 21-22 applies to both the third and the second heaven, albeit in different ways - in fact, scripture is polysemantic, or to be more precise, as some people call it, semantically multilayered - if someone says an old datum such as "there are people for everything", will this only mean that there are employees of general motors for everything?!, or if scripture says "God is love", will this only mean that God is intimate relationship(s) between man and woman?!; so Scripture is also full of universal principles and prophetic schemes which can be applied in different circumstances accordingly (however, one thing is certain - the main subject of Scripture is overall salvation to abundant and eternal life in the One Who is really the true Lord God)

anyway, the ones who live in the third heaven live for many consecutive eternities(cycles of eternity) (because they prove themselves as true saviors/servants of life in God for a long enough time - for many of them have done righteousness also in previous cycles of eternity), while the same cannot be said for others - of course i don't put any of them under a common umbrella of being completely devoid of the third heaven - let's say it can turn out that the systems of the true God are dynamically operating, not just separately and statically inherited

Blessings

[Retrobyter]

11 hours ago, wingnut- said:

Hey brother,

Actually the dilemma is that they are in heaven, as this is where John places himself at the beginning of Revelation.

Revelation 4  After this I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven! And the first voice, which I had heard speaking to me like a trumpet, said, “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this.” 2 At once I was in the Spirit, and behold, a throne stood in heaven, with one seated on the throne.

Now unless you can provide a verse somewhere within Revelation after this, which reveals John came back down, then the dilemma is not mine. 

God bless

Shalom, wingnut-.

First of all, how do you know he went to a PLACE called "heaven?" That is an ASSUMPTION many theologians make that may NOT be true!

See, again, the definition of the Hebrew word "shaamayim" is the "skies," and is a DUAL word, referring to the daytime sky and the nighttime sky. The Greek words translated as "heaven," "heavens," or "heavenly" are ...

(1) ouranos (3772),
(2) ouranoi (3772),
(3) ouranios (3770),
(4) ouranothen, (3771),
(5) mesouraneema (3321), and
(6) epouranios (2032).

In Strong's numerical order (alphabetical order in Greek),

2032 epouranios (ep-oo-rah'-nee-os). From epi and ouranos; above the sky -- celestial, (in) heaven(-ly), high.

3321 mesouraneema (mes-oo-rah-nay'-mah). From a presumed compound of mesos and ouranos; mid-sky -- midst of heaven.

3770 ouranios (oo-rah'-nee-os). From ouranos; celestial, i.e. Belonging to or coming from the sky -- heavenly.

3771 ouranothen (oo-rah-noth'-en). From ouranos and the enclitic of source; from the sky -- from heaven.

3772 ouranos (oo'-ran-os). Perhaps from the same as oros (through the idea of elevation); the sky; by extension, heaven (as the abode of God); by implication, happiness, power, eternity; specially, the Gospel (Christianity) -- air, heaven(-ly), sky.

(3772 ouranoi (oo'-ran-ohee). The plural of ouranos; the skies -- heavens.)

Of ouranos and ouranoi, there are 186 singular forms and 92 plural forms in the Greek New Testament, according to the Englishman's Concordance (according to BibleHub.com).

Do you see an unmistakable pattern here?

Look at how Yeshua` Himself used the word:

Matthew 16:1-4 (KJV)

1 The Pharisees also with the Sadducees came, and tempting desired him that he would shew them a sign from heaven (Greek: seemeion ek tou ouranou = "a-sign out of-the sky"). 2 He answered and said unto them, When it is evening, ye say, It will befair weather: for the sky (Greek: ho ouranos = "the sky") is red. 3 And in the morning, It will be foul weather to day: for the sky (Greek: ho ouranos = "the sky") is red and lowring. O ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky (Greek: to prosoopon tou ouranou = the face of-the sky"); but can ye not discern the signs of the times? 4 A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas. And he left them, and departed.

As I've said before, He didn't deny the P'rushiym (Pharisees) and Ts'duqiym (Sadducees) a "sign from ouranos", a "sign from the sky"; He GAVE them "Red sky at night is a sailor's delight; red sky at morning, sailors take warning!" He denied them a "sign OF THE TIMES!" Just the same, the SAME WORD used for "heaven" in verse 1 was translated as "sky" in verses 2 and 3. Those who spoke Greek saw NO CHANGE - NO DIFFERENCE - between verse 1 and verses 2 and 3!

So now, I ask you, how many doors (Greek: thura) have YOU ever seen suspended in the sky, open or otherwise? You do know that this was a VISION given to Yochanan, right? He said, "And I was immediately on the wind (in the spirit)."

That's a start; more later.

[wingnut-]

56 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, wingnut-.

First of all, how do you know he went to a PLACE called "heaven?" That is an ASSUMPTION many theologians make that may NOT be true!

 

Brother, where is God's throne?   You are arguing about what part of heaven when the answer is found within the verse.  You and I both know that God's throne is not in the sky above us, it is in the third level of heaven.  Unless you have changed your position on this?

[Retrobyter]

23 minutes ago, eileenhat said:

A few pictures detailing where Heaven lies, ie. above our firmament.

Pic. number three below quotes 4 Bible scriptures, ie. Gen. 1:7, Job 37:18, Rev. 6:13, Psalms 104:5

Shalom, eileenhat.

I don't much care for picture representations as you have provided. Artists can be every bit as bad as theologians, even when their work is "so pretty!"

Regarding the four passages of Scripture you mention, Gen. 1:7, Job 37:18, Rev. 6:13, Psalms 104:5, DON'T FALL PREY to the one-verse theological nonsense that many make up as they go along. Be a Berean! Check out EACH VERSE against its context, and consider WHEN each thing was said!

Genesis 1:7 is part of Day 2 of Creation. Thus, this is the forming of the FIRST EARTH before the FLOOD! The Flood CHANGED things considerably!

Job 37:18 is information supplied by one of Job's friends,Eeliyhuw' (Elihu), neither Job nor God! This speech begins in Job 36:1. As such, one must take what he said with "a grain of salt!" The mere fact that he talks about clouds means that he is only providing information about the SECOND EARTH, AFTER the Flood, with which he is most familiar, but as HE saw it, not necessarily as God DESIGNED it!

Revelation 6:13 is from the same event that ENDS the "great tribulation," the Second Coming of Yeshua` the Messiah of God. It happens a thousand years before the end of the SECOND EARTH and the beginning of the THIRD EARTH with its THIRD SKY or THIRD ATMOSPHERE. This passage is about a meteorite shower, not "stars" as we know them today. Don't confuse the two; they ARE different, but within the Scriptures, they are ALL called "kokhaviym" in Hebrew or "asteres" in Greek!

Backtracking to Psalm 104:5, this is a passage about the FLOOD, between the FIRST EARTH and the SECOND EARTH. Furthermore, the word for "earth" there (and in most places in the Tanakh [the OT]) is "erets" and its primary meaning is "LAND," usually talking about the Land of Israel! Psalm 104 even talks about the continental shelf in verse 9 (and ALWAYS read the entire context):

Psalm 104:5-11 (KJV)

5 Who (YHWH God) laid the foundations of the earth (AFTER the Flood), that it should not be removed for ever.
6 Thou coveredst it (the earth) with the deep as with a garment: the waters stood above the mountains.
7 At thy rebuke they (the waters) fled; at the voice of thy thunder they hasted away.
8 They go up by the mountains (literally, the mountains rose); they go down by the valleys (literally, the valleys sunk) unto the place which thou hast founded for them.
9 Thou hast set a bound that they (the waters) may not pass over; that they turn not again to cover the earth.
10 He sendeth the springs into the valleys, which run among the hills.
11 They (the springs) give drink to every beast of the field: the wild asses quench their thirst.

From the contextual clues provided here, it should be easy to see that this psalm is talking about the aftermath of the Flood, and the miraculous things God had to do to renovate the First Earth into the Second Earth.

PLEASE learn to think critically, and carefully weigh the things you read in Scripture against the things told to you by men, whether live, in books, or on the Internet! Also, it wouldn't hurt to look at the study helps we have to be SURE that you're on the same page as the Author who wrote the Book of Books!

[Retrobyter]

5 hours ago, wingnut- said:

 

Brother, where is God's throne?   You are arguing about what part of heaven when the answer is found within the verse.  You and I both know that God's throne is not in the sky above us, it is in the third level of heaven.  Unless you have changed your position on this?

Shalom, wingnut-.

God's throne, according to Revelation 21 and 22, is within the New Jerusalem. Furthermore, according to YOUR take on "first heaven of clouds, second heaven of stars, and third heaven is God's abode," the author of Hebrews tells us it is in the SECOND heaven, using the Greek word "epouranios," which means "above the sky," the same word Paul used in 1 Corinthians 15:40-41:

1 Corinthians 15:40-41 (KJV)

40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. 41There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.

On the other hand, this is a VISION OF THE FUTURE. We learn also from Revelation 21:1-3 that the New Jerusalem shall descend to the New Earth for the THIRD EARTH and its THIRD ATMOSPHERE (Greek: ouranos = "sky") will be our final home. Again, it is the New Jerusalem WITH GOD'S THRONE that descends to the earth, not the other way around!

Furthermore, we need to remember that, in the Tanakh, when God was dealing directly with the nation of Israel, and since God is said to be "a Spirit" (or "a WIND"; John 4:24), it is written,

Isaiah 66:1 (KJV)

1 Thus saith the LORD (YHWH), The heaven (Hebrew: hashaamayim) is my throne, and the earth (Hebrew: haa'aarets) is my footstool: where is the house that ye build unto me? and where is the place of my rest?

although Shlomoh (Solomon) admitted,

1 Kings 8:27-30 (KJV)

27 But will God indeed dwell on the earth? behold, the heaven and heaven of heavens (Hebrew: hashaamayim v-shmeey hashaamayim = "the skies and the skies of the skies") cannot contain thee; how much less this house that I have builded? 28 Yet have thou respect unto the prayer of thy servant, and to his supplication, O LORD my God, to hearken unto the cry and to the prayer, which thy servant prayeth before thee to day: 29 That thine eyes may be open toward this house night and day, even toward the place of which thou hast said, My name shall be there: that thou mayest hearken unto the prayer which thy servant shall make toward this place. 30 And hearken thou to the supplication of thy servant, and of thy people Israel, when they shall pray toward this place: and hear thou in heaven thy dwelling place: and when thou hearest, forgive.

[wingnut-]

7 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

God's throne, according to Revelation 21 and 22, is within the New Jerusalem.

 

Hey brother,

Where is it before it comes down to earth?  Because that is where John is during the vision, it doesn't come down til the end.

 

7 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Furthermore, according to YOUR take on "first heaven of clouds, second heaven of stars, and third heaven is God's abode," the author of Hebrews tells us it is in the SECOND heaven, using the Greek word "epouranios," which means "above the sky,"

 

Well, this is really the problem when we start to over analyze things.  Above the sky, being the first heaven which we can look up and see with our eyes, is not limited to outer space, but also would include the third heaven.  I think you are reading too much into this and limiting what "above the sky" means.  I don't want to go around and round with you though, just wanted to offer this for your consideration.

God bless

[simplejeff]

1 hour ago, wingnut- said:

8 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

God's throne, according to Revelation 21 and 22, is within the New Jerusalem.

 

Hey brother,

Where is it before it comes down to earth?  Because that is where John is during the vision, it doesn't come down til the end.

This on its own looks sooooo funnnny !     (In LIGHT of YHVH'S PRESENCE FILLS the ENTIRE UNIVERSE, and is still NOT CONTAINED ! )   

[Retrobyter]

On 2/11/2018 at 8:47 PM, ytLiJC said:

 

reading and literal interpretation alone cannot reveal some things to us, but faith is the thing through which all things can be revealed to us

(maybe) you know that in every country there are two main categories of people - rulers and subjects, doctors and patients, people serving and people served, etc.; so is the spiritual situation in God - there are people working for overall salvation/life's provision and people receiving salvation/paradisaical life; the first ones live in the "third heaven", while others live in the "second heaven" - it is like the difference between the white house (where the president and his wife live) and an ordinary house (where one ordinary family lives) (- i don't say it is same, but it is somewhat similar, because people in the third heaven rejoice in the overall salvation/life's provision, while people in the second heaven enjoy receiving/having paradisaical life, and the third heaven is in the second one in a way similar to how the white house is located in washington/us)

so, what we read in Revelation 21-22 applies to both the third and the second heaven, albeit in different ways - in fact, scripture is polysemantic, or to be more precise, as some people call it, semantically multilayered - if someone says an old datum such as "there are people for everything", will this only mean that there are employees of general motors for everything?!, or if scripture says "God is love", will this only mean that God is intimate relationship(s) between man and woman?!; so Scripture is also full of universal principles and prophetic schemes can be applied in different circumstances accordingly (however, one thing is certain - the main subject of Scripture is overall salvation to abundant and eternal life in the One Who is really the true Lord God)

anyway, the ones who live in the third heaven live for many consecutive eternities(cycles of eternity) (because they prove themselves as true saviors/servants of life in God for a long enough time - for many of them have done righteousness also in previous cycles of eternity), while the same cannot be said for others - of course i don't put any of them under a common umbrella of being completely devoid of the third heaven - let's say it can turn out that the systems of the true God are dynamically operating, not just separately and statically inherited

Blessings

Shalom, ytLiJC.

There are some fundamental problems that I have with your post. First, the written Scriptures commonly called "the Bible" or "the Word of God" should be our ONLY rule of faith and practice. (It is my only rule of faith and practice.) And, "reading and literal interpretation alone" of those written Scriptures are all we can truly know about God and the things written within those Scriptures which He reveals to us through His indwelling Spirit.

"Faith" is VERY misunderstood. It is not a thing; it's simply TRUST in the God who is the Creator of all. Some people talk about it as though it is some power they can wield. It's not. It is merely trust in the God who HAS the power!

Secondly, there are NO "ones who live in the third heaven ... for many consecutive eternities (cycles of eternity)." You're forgetting the importance of several statements made in the Scriptures.

Hebrews 1:1-7 (KJV)

1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, 2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; 3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; 4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.

Hebrews 1:13-14 (KJV)

13 But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?
14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?

And, who exactly ARE these "heirs of salvation?" Yeshua` told us vicariously when He told the Samaritan woman at the well:

John 4:19-22 (KJV)

19 The woman saith unto him, Sir, I perceive that thou art a prophet. 20 Our fathers worshipped (Greek: prosekuneesan = "they-worshipped") in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship (Greek: proskunein = "to worship"). 21 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship (Greek: proskuneesete = "you-shall-worship") the Father. 22 Ye worship (Greek: proskuneite = "you-worship") ye know not what: we know what we worship (Greek: proskunoumen = "we-worship") for salvation is of the Jews.

And, for the sake of clarity, "I worship" is the Greek word "proskuneoo":

4352 proskuneoo (pros-koo-neh'-o). From pros (to or toward) and a probable derivative of kuon (meaning to kiss, like a dog licking his master's hand); to fawn or crouch to, i.e. (literally or figuratively) prostrate oneself in homage (do reverence to, adore) -- worship.

Thayer's Greek Lexicon adds:

STRONGS NT 4352: προσκυνέω

προσκυνέω, προσκύνω; imperfect προσεκύνουν; future προσκυνήσω; 1 aorist προσεκύνησα; from Aeschylus and Herodotus down; the Sept. very often for הִשְׁתַּחֲוָה (to prostrate oneself); properly, to kiss the hand to (toward) one, in token of reverence: Herodotus 1, 134; (cf. K. F. Hermann, Gottesdienstl. Alterthümer d. Griech. § 21; especially Hoelemann, Die Biblical Gestalt. d. Anbetung in his 'Bibelstudien' i., 106ff); hence, among the Orientals, especially the Persians, to fall upon the knees and touch the ground with the forehead as an expression of profound reverence ("to make a 'salam'"); Latin veneror (Nepos, Conon. 3, 3),adoro (Pliny, h. n. 28, 5, 25; Suetonius, Vitell. 2); hence, in the N. T. by kneeling or prostration to do homage (to one) or make obeisance, whether in order to express respect or to make supplication. It is used

a. of homage shown to men of superior rank: absolutely, Matthew 20:20 (the Jewish high-priests are spoken of in Josephus, b. j. 4, 5, 2 as προσκυνούμενοι); πεσών ἐπίτούς πόδας προσεκύνησεν, Acts 10:25; τίνι (according to the usage of later writings; cf. Winers Grammar, 36, 210 (197); (Buttmann, § 131, 4); Lob. ad Phryn., p. 463), Matthew 2:2, 8; Matthew 8:2; Matthew 9:18; Matthew 14:33; Matthew 15:25; (); (R G); Mark 5:6 (here WH Tr marginal reading have the accusative); ; John 9:38; with πεσών preceding, Matthew 2:11; Matthew 4:9; ἐνώπιον τῶν ποδῶν τίνος, Revelation 3:9; (it may perhaps be mentioned that some would bring in here Hebrews 11:21 προσεκύνησεν ἐπί τό ἄκρον τῆςῤάβδου αὐτοῦ, explaining it by the (Egyptian) custom of bowing upon the magistrate's staff of office in taking an oath; cf. Chabas, Melanges Egypt. III. i., p. 80, cf. p. 91f; but see below). 

b. of homage rendered to God and the ascended Christ, to heavenly beings, and to demons: absolutely (our to worship) (cf. Winer's Grammar, 593 (552)), John 4:20; John 12:20; Acts 8:27; Acts 24:11; Hebrews 11:21 (cf. above); Revelation 11:1; πίπτειν καί προσκυνεῖν, Revelation 5:14; τίνι, John 4:21, 23; Acts 7:43; Hebrews 1:6; Revelation 4:10; Revelation 7:11; Revelation 11:16; Revelation 14:7; Revelation 16:2; Revelation 19:4, 20; Revelation 22:8; Revelation 13:4 G L T TrWH (twice (the 2nd time WH text only)); G T Tr WH text; Revelation 20:4 Rec.; πεσών ἐπί πρόσωπονπροσκυνήσει τῷ Θεῷ, 1 Corinthians 14:25; πίπτεινἐπί τά πρόσωπα καί προσκυνεῖν τῷ Θεῷ, Revelation 11:16; preceded by πίπτειν ἔμπροσθεν τῶνποδῶν τίνος, Revelation 19:10. in accordance with the usage of the older and better writings with τινα or τί (cf. Matthiae, § 412): Matthew 4:10; Luke 4:8; Revelation 9:20; Revelation 13:12; Revelation 14:9, 11; also Revelation 13:4 (Rec. twice; (WH (marginal reading once)), 8 (where Rec. dative), 15 R L WHmarginal reading; 20:4a (where Rec. dative), 4b (where Relz dative); Luke 24:52 R G L Tr brackets WH reject; (the Sept. also connects the word far more frequent with the dative than with the accusative (cf. Hoelemann as above, p. 116ff)); ἐνώπιοντίνος, Luke 4:7; Revelation 15:4. 

The only thing I would add is that this is NOT necessarily willingly done or done with pleasure! Thus, "adore" might be subjective. All will "bend the knee" LITERALLY to the Messiah when He reigns as King over the earth, some willingly and even with pleasure, but some involuntarily and with resolve to submit to Him for their own well-being. Yeshua` will, after all, be a formidable and indomitable force, disarming nuclear bombs as well as every other weapon!

Isaiah 54:1-17 (KJV)

1 Sing, O barren, thou that didst not bear; break forth into singing, and cry aloud, thou that didst not travail with child: for more are the children of the desolate than the children of the married wife, saith the LORD.
2 Enlarge the place of thy tent, and let them stretch forth the curtains of thine habitations: spare not, lengthen thy cords, and strengthen thy stakes;
3 For thou shalt break forth on the right hand and on the left; and thy seed shall inherit the Gentiles, and make the desolate cities to be inhabited.
4 Fear not; for thou shalt not be ashamed: neither be thou confounded; for thou shalt not be put to shame: for thou shalt forget the shame of thy youth, and shalt not remember the reproach of thy widowhood any more.
5 For thy Maker is thine husband; the LORD of hosts (Hebrew: YHWH tsva'owt) is his name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall he be called.
6 For the LORD hath called thee as a woman forsaken and grieved in spirit, and a wife of youth, when thou wast refused, saith thy God.
7 For a small moment have I forsaken thee; but with great mercies will I gather thee.
8 In a little wrath I hid my face from thee for a moment; but with everlasting kindness will I have mercy on thee, saith the LORD thy Redeemer.
9 For this is as the waters of Noah unto me: for as I have sworn that the waters of Noah should no more go over the earth; so have I sworn that I would not be wroth with thee, nor rebuke thee.
10 For the mountains shall depart, and the hills be removed; but my kindness shall not depart from thee, neither shall the covenant of my peace be removed, saith the LORD that hath mercy on thee.
11 O thou afflicted, tossed with tempest, and not comforted, behold, I will lay thy stones with fair colours, and lay thy foundations with sapphires.
12 And I will make thy windows of agates, and thy gates of carbuncles, and all thy borders of pleasant stones.
13 And all thy children shall be taught of the LORD; and great shall be the peace of thy children.
14 In righteousness shalt thou be established: thou shalt be far from oppression; for thou shalt not fear: and from terror; for it shall not come near thee.
15 Behold, they shall surely gather together, but not by me: whosoever shall gather together against thee shall fall for thy sake.
16 Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work; and I have created the waster to destroy.
17 No weapon that is formed against thee shall prosper; and every tongue that shall rise against thee in judgment thou shalt condemn. This is the heritage of the servants of the LORD, and their righteousness is of me, saith the LORD.

Therefore, God will rescue (deliver; save) His people literally and through His Son, the Messiah of God, Yeshua` haMelekh, the King. It is most certainly NOT just "saving His people from their sins," although that is also entailed in the prophecy above in God's statement "their righteousness is of me."