Just How Close is the RAPTURE?

[iamlamad]

7 hours ago, Da Puppers said:

 You better put a mirror in front of you the next time you want to condemn a rearrangement of John's chronology.   Wow.   You win the prize.    

 

You completely skip over addressing your errant claim that Daniel was not thee one who asked about the end of these wonders.   It is one of the two [angels]  standing on the banks of the river,  not Daniel.   

But,  yes it is Daniel who does not understand and asks about the "end of these things".  The fact that he did not understand about "the end of wonders" ought to make it clear that he is not repeating the same question concerning "these things".  

Daniel is not told that he will stand in his lot "at the end of days".  But he is told that it will be at the End of THE DAYS.  Daniel knows that the resurrection to everlasting life, according to 12:2, takes place at that time of great tribulation.   And he also knows, but does not understand,  that it will be some 3.5 years later [after the resurrection of the righteous] before "the end of these wonders".   So, you should grasp why Daniel asks,  what else is going to happen, when HE SAYS "what shall be the end of these things?".

What was the response that he got?  The words are sealed up to the time of the end.   In plain English,  he said that it is not for you to know,  Daniel.   Let me say it again.  The resurrection of the righteous is the last event that Daniel sees.  The abomination of desolation can only be referring to the times before his resurrection,  and not after.   He knows this because he understands from ch.11 that it will be the king of the north that will cause the sacrifices to cease.   The 1290 days refers to the amount of time that it will take in setting up of the temple before the sacrifices cease.   The 45 days (1335 - 1290) refers to the amount of time that will elapse between when Michael stands up and the resurrection blessing comes upon the righteous.  According to Jesus,  the order of events are: 

1. AoD is seen, Matt24;15,

2.Great tribulation & desolation,  M24:16-21,

3.War between Michael & Satan,  M24:29,

4. Jesus returns,  v.30

5. Gathering of the elect at the sounding of the last trumpet  v.31.

The events that follow after were not revealed until later unto Paul and John's REVELATION.   Even the words of the Olivet discourse tell us nothing of what takes place after the great trumpet sounds.   I will address your issue/question of the 7th and last trumpet in my next post. 

Blessings

The PuP 

You better put a mirror in front of you the next time you want to condemn a rearrangement of John's chronology.   Wow.   You win the prize.     Please, show us where. We can see how I have rearranged.  Is there really a prize? I think it should go to you. 

You completely skip over addressing your errant claim that Daniel was not thee one...  you ignored the scripture I posted.

⁸ And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things?  (This is DANIEL!) 

He asked AFTER the  angel asked. 

OF COURSE He asked the same question!  The angel had just said, "all these things shall be finished."  But what was worrying Daniel? He had just heard the angel say these words: "when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people"  That was HIS people! Of course he was worried! It seemed to him that all was lost: Israel would not inherit God's promises. I can understand, he did NOT want this to end with HIS PEOPLE scattered!

Maybe we can agree on this: God's purpose for the 70th week is to SHATTER the power of Israel - get them to the place where they have lost all hope and MUST trust God.

The resurrection of the righteous is the last event that Daniel sees.   No. The last thing he HEARD was that His people were to be scattered! I think he was hearing , not seeing. 

The abomination of desolation can only be referring to the times before his resurrection,  and not after.   I agree and John agrees. The abomination comes at the 7th trumpet that marks the midpoint, and Daniel and all the Old Testament saints will raise at the 7th vial that ENDS the week. We are in agreement here. 

The 1290 days refers to the amount of time that it will take in setting up of the temple before the sacrifices cease.    MYTH.  It adds 30 days to the 1260 and points to an event AFTER the week has ended. 

War between Michael & Satan,  M24:29,  Possibly. I am not convinced

5. Gathering of the elect at the sounding of the last trumpet  v.31.  This gathering is a DIFFERENT gathering from Paul's and it is a DIFFERENT trumpet. The timing is over 7 years apart from paul's rapture.  This gathering is of the Jews and Hebrews and gathers from heaven. Paul's gathering gathers from earth. 

[n2thelight]

19 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Do you EVER make good sense? Daniel 8 is about Antiochus. It is history. 

The "evil day" is today.  And today we got hundreds of different theories about every verse.

The evil day is when satan comes pretending to be Christ,yes we are living in evil times today but it's nothing compared to when satan arrives,and though he's evil,he will destroy with peace!!!

So what part of sense I'm not making?

[n2thelight]

Christ and Paul told us the same thing

II Thessalonians 2:3 "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come , except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;"

Matthew 24:15 "When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place (whoso readeth, let him understand:)"

The "abomination" is when Satan stands in Jerusalem, and proclaims that he is God, and the world believes it. The "desolation" is an incorrect translation into the English, which should read "desolator", and Satan is the desolator that will make the claim that he is God, the true Christ. "Desolation" is a condition, in the Hebrew manuscripts it is written, "On the wings of the desolator," this is not a condition, but a entity, a person. It is through this individual, Satan that the abomination shall come from. It is the desolator [Satan] that shall cause all but the sealed of God, to become desolate, or deceived.

 

Do you all not understand?Christ cannot and will not return until after satan,period!!!!

[iamlamad]

11 hours ago, Da Puppers said:

It does not do me any good to give you scripture that you reject what they say. 

A. 

Christ judges the dead at his epiphaneia and kingdom: 

*[[2Ti 4:1]] KJV* I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

*[[Rev 12:10]] KJV* And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

B1 & B2.  

Ezekiel 5 tells us of the fire that shall come into all of the house of Israel.  I repeat it again,  judgment upon Israel is found in Revelation 6 through 11.  When that is over,  at the 7th trumpet:

*[[Mat 8:11]] KJV* And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.  But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

*[[Mat 13:41]] KJV* The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things (THE TARES)  that offend, and them which do iniquity;  And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

*[[Luk 13:28]] KJV* There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.  And they shall come from the east, and from the west, and from the north, and from the south, and shall sit down in the kingdom of God.

 The children of Israel shall be cast out with great weeping [their judgment] when They shall see come from the four winds (every direction) those coming and sitting down with Abraham and the prophets.   I keep telling you that the judgment of Israel/Jews comes first, but you keep placing it at the end (of the 70th week).  Inconsistency and blind eyes!  

C. 

It is just your assessment that it happens at the exact midpoint.  Why you would give (in other thread post) a blatant lie of scripture and say that Satan was cast out at the 7th trumpet,  I can't figure. 

D. 

The statement by Jesus that "he that endures unto the end" makes Paul's words "we shall not all sleep", unequivocally the same thing and is therefore not the mystery that was revealed to Paul.   

E.

Jesus clearly conforms  the bodily change and what life would be like in the resurrection: 

*[[Luk 20:35]] KJV* But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage [36] Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.

F.  More unnecessary reminders that the Jews will be judged first,  not last. 

G. Absolutely the 7th trumpet is the same as the last trumpet.   Allow me to use your own anti-type of rebuttal here.   There is no gathering to heaven here.   

Blessings

The PuP 

 

Now you are accusing me, a brother in Christ of lying.  Do you really think a brother in Christ would lie? It is clearly written that liars don't go to heaven. I am assure you, I don't make a practice of lying. 

It is just your assessment that it happens at the exact midpoint.  Why you would give (in other thread post) a blatant lie of scripture and say that Satan was cast out at the 7th trumpet,  I can't figure.   I am a good reader. I usually understand what I read. 

I read where Jesus told those in Judea to flee the moment they see the abomination. Do you agree?

I find that fleeing in Rev. 12:6. Do you agree?

My common sense tells us they obey Jesus and begin fleeing the moment they see the abomination. Therefore 12:6 is going to be only a few seconds from the abomination. Do you still agree - or have I lost you?

What I am saying is, the abomination HAS to be close to 12:6.  And that is the very same place we find Satan being cast out.  Agree or disagree?

If 12:6 is just AFTER the abomination, where IS the exact time of the abomination? Well, John did not see it so did not write it. But did the Holy Spirit give us clues? Could we just back up from 12:6 and look for some marker?  12:1-5 is a parenthesis about Jesus' birth, so no marker there. 

11:16-19 is a prophecy and praise given by the 24 elders, so I don't see any verse there being a marker of any kind. 

¹⁵ And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Now there is a marker if I ever saw one. Notice that at this trumpet, the kingdoms of the world are taken from Satan and given to Jesus Christ.  "taken from Satan..." does that seem like it might be at least a  tiny bit associated with a war when Satan is cast down?  It does to me: in either text, Satan loses. First he loses his kingdoms, then he loses his ability to fly into the heavens. 

Now I want to know the truth: why would you consider this a lie? Please tell the truth. 

If you disagree with my logic, please explain where I went astray.

Edited October 11, 2018 by iamlamad

[iamlamad]

11 hours ago, Da Puppers said:

Claiming that the events of the 7th trumpet (resurrecting and judging of the saints and prophets)  takes place at the time of the 7th vial,  demonstrates 2 things.   You can't take scriptures at face value when they contradict your beliefs.   Your claim of myth and falsehood of the presented scriptures  is just a masquerade for all the inconsistencies and contradictions that you hold to.   All claims about the AOD in the book of Revelation are total fabrications of your imagination seeing that it is never mentioned. 

Can we just TRY and resolve our differences, if that is possible? After all, we are studying the same book! 

Let's work on your first sentence above.  7th trumpet (resurrecting and judging of the saints and prophets) 

CAn you prove there is a resurrection at the 7th trumpet? Can you find any words there that would hint of a resurrection there? SHOW US!  I don't believe there is any resurrection there. I see Three  events that happen at the 7th trumpet:

1: the kingdoms of the world are taken away from Satan and given to the Lord Jesus Christ.

2.  Those in Judea begin to flee.

3. The war in heaven will begin. 

Now, can you disagree with these three points? If so WHY? Explain.  I will ignore your insults above. I can guess you say such things only because you disagree with me. I want to know WHY you disagree. 

You did not answer my previous questions. I hope you will answer these.  And I have one more:

²⁷ And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, ...

Do you take this event that causes the sacrifices to cease - the very event Jesus called the abomination of desolation - to happen in the exact middle of the week?  Please, when you answer, try not to insult. 

[iamlamad]

9 hours ago, n2thelight said:

The evil day is when satan comes pretending to be Christ,yes we are living in evil times today but it's nothing compared to when satan arrives,and though he's evil,he will destroy with peace!!!

So what part of sense I'm not making?

For example, quoting some part of Daniel 8 as if showing it is for the future. 

For example, when you write something like this: "Do you all not understand?Christ cannot and will not return until after satan,period!!!!"

For example, when you insist that the MAN  -the Beast of Rev 13 is Satan himself. 

Edited October 11, 2018 by iamlamad

[iamlamad]

11 hours ago, Da Puppers said:

"The resurrection of the righteous is the last event that Daniel sees.   No. The last thing he HEARD was that His people were to be scattered! I think he was hearing , not seeing. "

It was definitely a vision. 

*[[Dan 12:5]] KJV* Then I Daniel LOOKED, and, behold, there stood other two, the one on this side of the bank of the river, and the other on that side of the bank of the river.

The PuP 

My point was, he HEARD the words, He did not see the words written.

[iamlamad]

11 hours ago, Da Puppers said:

[Escaped what?  The indignation and wrath of the Lord upon his people,  Israel.   And when does God do that?.......FIRST, FIRST,  FIRST! 

I know you have been trying to tell us that judgment comes on Israel first.  First when? In our future or way back under the Old Testament? I assume you mean in our future. 

The first judgment I see in our future is at the 6th seal. Do you agree or do you think judgment starts elsewhere in Revelation? 

If you agree, then do you suppose this earthquake is only felt in Israel? I think it will be a worldwide earthquake that will effect Gentiles as well as those in Israel. 

How about the 1/3 judgments in the trumpets? Do you think they will be mostly centered in Israel? 

[Last Daze]

1 hour ago, iamlamad said:

CAn you prove there is a resurrection at the 7th trumpet? Can you find any words there that would hint of a resurrection there? SHOW US!  I don't believe there is any resurrection there.

A hint:

• And the nations were enraged, and Your wrath came, and the time came for the dead to be judged, and the time to reward Your bond-servants the prophets and the saints and those who fear Your name, the small and the great, and to destroy those who destroy the earth.”  Revelation 11:18
• But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he is about to sound, then the mystery of God is finished, as He preached to His servants the prophets.  Revelation 10:7

The seventh plague (trumpet/bowl) brings the end of Satan's reign.

Edited October 11, 2018 by Last Daze

[iamlamad]

7 hours ago, Last Daze said:

A hint:

• And the nations were enraged, and Your wrath came, and the time came for the dead to be judged, and the time to reward Your bond-servants the prophets and the saints and those who fear Your name, the small and the great, and to destroy those who destroy the earth.”  Revelation 11:18
• But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he is about to sound, then the mystery of God is finished, as He preached to His servants the prophets.  Revelation 10:7

The seventh plague (trumpet/bowl) brings the end of Satan's reign.

Yet, if we read ahead, we see the dead being judged at the great, white throne judgment...right? Therefore what we read in this verse is a prophecy given by the 24 elders.  WHAT? You cannot put the 7th trumpet with the 7th vial! That is nonsense! The 7th trumpet marks the midpoint and the 7th vial ENDS the week. Daze, you seem dazed. You really do amaze me.  

You are half right, the 7th trumpet does end the reign of Satan as the god or prince of this world.