Last Trump vs The Seventh

[Daniel 11:36]

"Two different trumpets doesn't fly"

 

The two trumps for the pre-tribulation rapture are totally different from the other trumpets listed .... 7 judgment trumpets and 1 gathering trumpet for Israel after the end of the tribulation period

You fail to see this son .... sorry, but you are wrong

You are either a false teacher or you have been deceived by others

These two distinct trumpets are only to be applied to the Lord's own pre-tribulation church [Revelation; 1:10-11, Corinthians 15:51-58 and 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18]

Now I am not going to argue with you any longer son, so there is no need to respond again

 .... I will not answer you  

 

 

 

Edited May 21, 2018 by Daniel 11:36

[inchrist]

25 minutes ago, seeking the lost said:

The subject of 1 Corinthians 15 is the nature of the resurrection and the time of the resurrection at the last trumpet.  The passage of 1 Thess. 4 also links a trumpet with the resurrection.

And that nature is a mystery

1 Corinthians 15:51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed--

However your argument is based that this mystery is to continue, when it's stated that its not.

⁷ But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets

God declared this to Paul as one of his servants the prophets.

It does seem that you are trying to bring the last day into the tribulation.  That does not match the account of Rev. 21 that gives account of the last day resurrection

No I'm bringing the Last trumpet into the tribulation since our topic is  1 Corinthians 15, so your question on "last days" has no bearing on 1 Corinthians 15 unless you're insinuating that 1 Cor 15 takes place at the end of the millennium 

 At the seventh trumpet there are seven bowls of wrath to be poured out,  and some of the worst part of the tribulation is yet to come.  Rev 13: 6-8 

Yes indeed the worest part is certainly going to come for the wicked - let us rejoice and all of heaven 

 And the twenty-four elders, who were seated on their thrones before God, fell on their faces and worshiped

Rev 11:18 

and for destroying those who destroy the earth.”

 

You will find a similar prophetic pattern in King Joash

In the seventh year, the priest Jehoiada revealed Joash and anointed as king.  (2 Kings 11:4–12).

Queen Athaliah hearing such rushed to the temple, shouting, Treason! Treason!  

Then Athaliah was captured (gathered in other words) by the guards, removed from the temple, and put to death 2 Kings 11:13–16.

and for destroying those who destroy the earth.”

Same prophetic pattern Luke 19:11-27

Returning King, rightful King

Rewards his servants

The time has come for judging the dead,
    and for rewarding your servants the prophets

then orders for his enemies to be captured and put to death

and for destroying those who destroy the earth.”

Exactly what you will find in Rev 14

It is no coincidence, that at the 7th trumpet we find literal ressurection (two witnesses, as well as Christ voice)

It is no coincidence we find the declaration time to the judging of dead, rewarding of servants mentioned at the 7th trumpet

It is no coincidence we find it is time to destroy those who destroy the earth.

 All of this, at a trumpet, where God talks all of his mysterious - to be finished at this particular trumpet being the 7th trumpet, where all of these no coincidences are actually mentioned.

Yet no pretribs, no prewraths have any of this, they don't even have a literal trumpet.

 If the saints have been raise and those who are alive and remain have been caught up together with them, how then does this war take place?

That particular war you cited Rev 13, perhaps have a look at the 5th seal...those people certainly just didn't drop dead.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[inchrist]

22 minutes ago, Daniel 11:36 said:

"Two different trumpets doesn't fly"

 

The two trumps for the pre-tribulation rapture are totally different from the other trumpets listed .... 7 judgment trumpets and 1 gathering trumpet for Israel after the end of the tribulation period

You fail to see this son .... sorry, but you are wrong

 

I fail to see this because it's it's not explained .

Explain Matthew 24 and 1 Cor 15

And that some how Christ failed to connect the dots with Daniel.

I want it explained, I want to see it

 

[Daniel 11:36]

I doubt that you can see the difference son .... it depends upon how corrupt you make the scriptures to your own bias

You are either a false teacher, or you have been deceived by others

I have answered your question many times, but will no longer discuss this topic with you 

Edited May 21, 2018 by Daniel 11:36

[JoeChan82]

On ‎4‎/‎15‎/‎2018 at 11:17 AM, Daniel 11:36 said:

This is specifically written to Israel in Matthew 24

Get it in your head that the Lord's discourse is about Israel

Matthew 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

Mark 13:37 And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch.   

The disciples are not national Israel. And even if you say they are, in Mark Jesus said "I say unto all". 

[JoeChan82]

Okay. So we have a guy that thinks Jesus is here, when Acts 1 says he ascended.  Acts 1:10-11 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; 11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

Then we have a guy who thinks Jesus is going to need some time to get His 1,000 year reign in order when Revelation says He'll rule with a rod of iron.  Revelation 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

We also have a guy who insists over and over that Matthew 24 is not for the church and conjures an 8th trumpet based solely on that same assertion along with accusations of falsehood to any that dare ask why. 

Then we fight over who is alive during the 1,000 year reign.  Is it spirit bodies, flesh and bone or flesh and blood, and don't forget the folks who survive the 7 years.

But we also had some very clear explanations from some people who did their best to prove their positions.  I say bravo to those who gave their reasons!  Just for the record, I still think the last trump is the seventh trumpet, but the best of you gave me a lot to think about. Thank you.

[inchrist]

21 hours ago, Daniel 11:36 said:

I doubt that you can see the difference son .... it depends upon how corrupt you make the scriptures to your own bias

You are either a false teacher, or you have been deceived by others

I have answered your question many times, but will no longer discuss this topic with you 

Daniel, I'm asking you nicely to explain it.

You seem unwilling to explain scripture to me....Im really happy to be wrong....I've got no issues with being wrong.

However I don't accept statements, things need to be explained...lets be honest you not doing that. 

[seeking the lost]

On 5/21/2018 at 11:16 AM, inchrist said:

On 5/21/2018 at 9:50 AM, seeking the lost said:

The subject of 1 Corinthians 15 is the nature of the resurrection and the time of the resurrection at the last trumpet.  The passage of 1 Thess. 4 also links a trumpet with the resurrection.

And that nature is a mystery

1 Corinthians 15:51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed--

However your argument is based that this mystery is to continue, when it's stated that its not.

⁷ But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets

God declared this to Paul as one of his servants the prophets.

 

Quote

It does seem that you are trying to bring the last day into the tribulation.  That does not match the account of Rev. 21 that gives account of the last day resurrection

 

No I'm bringing the Last trumpet into the tribulation since our topic is  1 Corinthians 15, so your question on "last days" has no bearing on 1 Corinthians 15 unless you're insinuating that 1 Cor 15 takes place at the end of the millennium 

You have missed my point from the beginning.  1 Cor 15 takes place at the end of the millennium.  This is the time that the dead are actually raised and the books are opened.  This is the last day that Jesus talked about when He said in John 6:  40 For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”

[seeking the lost]

On 5/21/2018 at 10:57 AM, Last Daze said:

Have you considered that the seven trumpets and the seven bowls make up the seven plagues?  That the trumpets and bowls begin and end the plagues respectively?  Rev 6-11 is chronological.  Rev 12-19 provides additional details for what takes place during Rev 6-11.

Greetings Last Daze,

I had not considered that.  The text looks like the three sevens are consecutive; seven seals, seven trumpets, seven bowls.  Thank you, I shall consider this.

[inchrist]

16 hours ago, seeking the lost said:

You have missed my point from the beginning.  1 Cor 15 takes place at the end of the millennium.  This is the time that the dead are actually raised and the books are opened.  

Firstly

1 cor 15 is directed to the body of Christ.

This is the context

  Now, brothers and sisters, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you,which you received and on which you have taken your stand. ² By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain

Those in Rev 20:12 is NOT the body of Christ

And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 

The body of Christ is not judged by works for salvation And no where is it even hinted this is the body of Christ, in fact the opposite is hinted. Which leads to point 2

Secondly

Rev 20:12 they are not raised imperishable, only the body of Christ is raised imperishable.

1 Cor 15:42 emphatically states that the body of Christ is raised imperishable

 So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable

Rev 20:12 those people are raised mortal.

Confirmed again in 1 Cor 15:50

I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.

Those in Rev 20:12 have not inherited the kingdom they have to stand before judgment first, they are therefore not the body of Christ because the body of Christ is raised imperishable having the kingdom.

Rev 20:12 is a completely different group of people.

Thirdly

1 cor 15:51

Listen, I tell you a mystery:We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— ⁵² in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

Is a direct quote from 1 Th 4:13-17

For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.¹⁷ After that, we who are still alive and are leftwill be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

Once again directed ONLY to the body of Christ. It's the same teaching Paul is repeating in 1 Cor 15. These are not two different trumpets. They are the same passage repeated to the Thessalonians and the Corinthians Christian body.

What you propose is for Christ to only come at the end of the millennium.

You now have the problem how did those saints IN Rev 20 become resurrected before the millennium ?

Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.

Which now leads me the forth point

Forth

1 cor 15

When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”

Do not make the same mistake you've done with the concept of the Millennium, that Christ is going to snap his fingers and all of a sudden there's peace. Christ has to rule with a rod of iron, He still has to punish people in the millennium. It is a 1000 year process for Christ. Otherwise if Christ simply just snapped his fingers, he may as well hand everything over to God and we have no need for this transitional 1000 year process.

It is the same thing with this statement

“Death has been swallowed up in victory.”

It's a process, it started with Christ, then with his Christian body, then to whoever else.

It's a process.

If we look at the first ressurection in Rev 20

Clearly death has been swallowed up in victory for the Christian body, no one will argue that they will tear again.

Then it filters down to those who weren't part of the body of Christ but somehow never heard the gospel never had a chance for salvation and so forth. It is a process.

This is the last day that Jesus talked about when He said in John 6:  40 For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”

No, that is not what John 6:40 is stating,  last day is not the last day of the millennium

Consider the following:

Hosea 6:2

After two days will he revive us: 
in the third day he will raise us up, 
and we shall live in his sight. 

 

Last day is the last day of the 3rd day, it has nothing to do with the last day of the Millennium.

Christ will ressurect us on the 3rd day being the last day

Just like Christ who has raised on the last day of the third day.
 

Interestingly the Last Day is mentioned seven times in "verily verily" John:

    1. John 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing,
        but should raise it up again at thelast day. 
    2. John 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, 
        may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day. 
    3. John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up 
        at the last day. 
    4. John 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; 
        and I will raise him up at the lastday. 
    5. John 7:37 In the last day, that great [day] of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, 
        If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.
    6. John 11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day. 
    7. John 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: 
        the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

Amazing how everything points to the 7th.