Revelation and the Study of Woe

[Willie T]

8 minutes ago, Revelation Man said:

No it doesn't, its your lack of understanding the book of Revelation that causes you to error, the way I see the book of Revelation as revealed by the Holy Spirit the timeline fits because I listen to what God is teaching me. I refuse to accept a time-line that did not FIT, so God gave me the answers. I have told you before, I don't do theories. You are of the ilk that once e gets an answer/understanding, its hard for God to teach you. You seem to let understandings overwhelm you, that was the Pharisees problem, their pride kept them from seeing Jesus/New Things of God. 

au contraire mon ami, my understandings fit the timeline, your don't.

The Two-witnesses ministry lasts 1260 Days as does the Beast..............Now explain when tey both show up and both die and make it fit.

Thank God that He gave YOU all the facts.  What would all the rest of us who obviously don't hear from The Holy Spirit do without you blessed ones?

[iamlamad]

On 7/24/2018 at 8:09 AM, Steve Conley said:

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

iamlamad, by your statement I take it that you believe that the seventieth week is yet future. I do also. Let's consider what Scriptures there are which tie eschatological events to the seventieth week.

Jesus ties the beginning of the great tribulation to the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel. He says that the defiling of the Temple will be a sign that unprecedented persecution is about to begin.

Mat 24:15  When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
...
Mat 24:21  For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

The prophecy from Daniel that He referred to mentions that the abomination which makes desolate happens in the midst (middle) of the seventieth week.

Dan 9:27  And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

So, roughly 3.5 years after the seventieth week has started and 3.5 years before its end the great tribulation begins with the man of sin standing in the Temple shewing himself to be God. That how Paul described the same event (2Thes 2:3-4).

What is the great tribulation?

It is the time of unprecedented persecution of the elect and Israel. How do we know this? The "therefore" in Matt 24:15 lets us know that Christ is adding further detail to what He previously said about the future time of violent persecution that will serve as a sign that His coming approaches.

The "then" in verse 9 indicates that after the beginning of sorrows (which Jesus said was not yet the end) would come violent persecution. Later in verse 21 He says this persecution will be unparalleled in scope and severity.

Mat 24:9  Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

He says that the result of the violent persecution will be that many are offended, that is that they depart from the faith like those who received seed into stony ground (Matt 13:20-21). Leaving the faith to follow the beast they will betray and hate us.

Mat 24:10  And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.

That time will also be characterized by supernatural deception.

Mat 24:11  And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

Mat 24:24  For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

The souls under the alter that John sees at the opening of the fifth seal suffered such martyrdom. They will be crying out to be avenged, but are told that they must wait a little season till more of their brethren are slain. Only then will God's wrath fall upon their persecutors. This is the promise of vengeance.

At the opening of the sixth seal, John witnesses the cosmic sign which portends Christ's arrival initiating the day of the Lord. He also witnesses the reaction of the world to Christ's revelation.

Revelation chapter 7 verses 9-17 shows the elect, having just been raptured, standing before the throne of God. These were resurrected/changed/raptured out of great tribulation. Christ's removal of the elect from the earth effectively ended the great tribulation even though the beast continues for what remains of his given 42 months.

Revelation chapter 8 shows the beginning of the pouring out of God's wrath, starting with the first trumpet judgement. This is the wrath of God that begins on the first day of the "day of the Lord".

What John sees at the opening of the sixth seal is the beginning of the day of the Lord which comes after the unprecedented persecution called great tribulation which begins in the middle of the week. The 6th seal events take place at the beginning of the last portion of the second half of the week.

Hallelujah

 

Agreed: Jesus said "THEN..." 

Agreed: Middle of the week.

Sorry, cannot agree. Was the holocaust not " afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated ?" I say yes, it was. 

⁶ And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

⁷ For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

⁸ All these are the beginning of sorrows.

⁹ Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

¹⁰ And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.

¹¹ And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

¹² And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.

¹³ But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Note that ever verse is tied to the previous verse. In other words, all these verses are tied to "the end is not yet." Jesus does not really get to "the end" until verse 13. They are all inside "the beginning of sorrows."  Therefore they cannot be tied to the days of GT.  The days of the holocaust were bad, but the days of GT Jesus spoke of will be worse. Why? How could they be worse than 6 million murdered? It is very simple: this time it will be world wide. And this time it will be not only the Jews but ANYONE who refuses to bow to the image or receive the mark. 

At the opening of the sixth seal, John witnesses the cosmic sign which portends Christ's arrival initiating the day of the Lord  Sorry, but that is human reasoning that does not fit the text: Jesus does not arrive until many chapters later. There are simply NO WORDS at the 6th seal that tell us Jesus is coming then. It is indeed the Start of the DAY, but the DAY begins long before Jesus descends to the battle of Armageddon.

These were resurrected/changed/raptured out of great tribulation.  You are putting far more weight on "great tribulation" that John does. You are assuming that John is talking about the very same days of GT that Jesus spoke of. Does it not bother you that John has not yet even started the 70th week, much less arrived at the midpoint here in chapter 7? Do you imagine that John is jumping around in time?  I don't think so.  I think God is calling the church age "great tribulation"  - or at least the church age at the time of the rapture.  Please note that these two words were not enough to satisfy Jesus when talking about the days to follow the abomination. He had to add that there would not be any such days before or after.

Did you notice that John used these two words together earlier in the book?

Rev. 2:22  Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.

He is speaking directly to people living in that early church!  What is God saying here then? He, God, can create GT any time He wants!  He is certainly not telling them in the early church that he will keep them alive for 2000 years so they can be in the end time GT!

Therefore, when we see the two words together, "great tribulation" we MUST NOT assume God is talking about those days to follow the abomination, when the image is set up and the mark enforced.  John has not yet started the 70th week here. And He shows us that the days of GT Jesus spoke of will not begin until late in chapter 14. 

Christ's removal of the elect from the earth effectively ended the great tribulation even though the beast continues for what remains of his given 42 months.  I disagree. I don't believe John was speaking of the same days of GT that Jesus was speaking of that will not come until late in chapter 14. I think you are putting FAR too much weight on these two words found in chapter 7.  If we study the Greek tenses, in fact, John is telling us something. 

"And he said to me, These are they which came out [one at a time] of great tribulation..."  This is the only way the Greek tense can be read. WHERE did these come from? They came out one at a time, from "great tribulation." Yet, the rapture happens instantly. God cannot be telling us these are not the raptured church. Some people insist they CANNOT be the raptured church because of this Greek word tense. No, the truth is, they were raptured in one instant of time, but they became a part of the body of Christ ONE AT A TIME. This is where they came from: from the world, one at a time, translated from the kingdom of darkness into the kingdom of light when they received Christ. That is John's meaning.  Therefore, God is telling us that when they were born again, He considered the world "great tribulation."  John in chapter one wrote, "I John, who also am your brother, and companion in THE tribulation..."

The "THE" is there in every Greek text, but for some reason no translator includes it in the translation. John and the Holy Spirit in this verse considered John's day or the entire church age "the tribulation." 

Therefore I put much more weight on John's chronology than I do on these two words GT found in chapter 7.

I therefore disagree with you on where John tells us of the days of GT Jesus spoke of.  Your theory requires rearranging John's book. I won't do that.

[Willie T]

19 minutes ago, Revelation Man said:

Facts are FACTS............You not accepting these FACTS is like someone thinking the earth has been around only 6000 years, just because you chose to believe that doesn't make it truth brother. The bible was translated from Greek, so we know the WORDS Jesus/John used for Revelation. 

Which was is TRUE ? That is easy, Jesus can't lie, he stated ONLY the Father knows when He will send His Son (Jesus) back, so Rev. 1:1 backs that up.  At a FIXED point in time (unkown to Jesus) the Father will send Jesus who will COME IN HASTE !! 

IF we insist on reading Revelation as only a Crystal Ball, foretelling a future time... and ignore that it was actually written to seven small, confused, and frightened churches who were seeing their friends killed, right and left... wondering if any of this relatively new Christ stuff was real and worth being slaughtered for.  (Many of them had never seen the guy this new "religion" was based on.  They needed John's reassurance, and he knew that as he penned that letter to them.)

Edited July 27, 2018 by Willie T

[iamlamad]

11 minutes ago, Revelation Man said:

No it doesn't, its your lack of understanding the book of Revelation that causes you to error, the way I see the book of Revelation as revealed by the Holy Spirit the timeline fits because I listen to what God is teaching me. I refuse to accept a time-line that did not FIT, so God gave me the answers. I have told you before, I don't do theories. You are of the ilk that once e gets an answer/understanding, its hard for God to teach you. You seem to let understandings overwhelm you, that was the Pharisees problem, their pride kept them from seeing Jesus/New Things of God. 

au contraire mon ami, my understandings fit the timeline, your don't.

The Two-witnesses ministry lasts 1260 Days as does the Beast..............Now explain when tey both show up and both die and make it fit.

If I did explain when the two witnesses ministry will begin and end, you would not agree with it anyway, for your theories are man made, in spite of what you tell us. I know the Holy Spirit would not tell you one thing, and the rest of the church world something else - or even ME something else. In spite of you telling us, you do NOT have a corner on the Holy Spirit's teaching!  Paul taught us to JUDGE what others say. If what you said agreed with the written word, that would be fine: the problem is, IT DOES NOT! 

Now, so  you will learn the truth: in Rev. 11:  1-2, John is showing us that the man of sin just arrived in Jerusalem. AFter all, He MUST be in Jerusalem if he is to enter the temple in Jerusalem. The two witnesses come because the man of sin just came. WHEN? They come when the man of sin came, which will be 3 1/2 days before the abomination that divides the week. They testify for 1260 days, which will take them to just 3 1/2 days before the 7th vial that ends the week. They lay dead for those 3 1/2 days, and God raises them up at the very same time He raises ALL THE REST of the Old Testament saints: at the 7th vial. 

In case you missed it: Revelation 11:4-13 is written as a parenthesis.

[iamlamad]

13 minutes ago, Revelation Man said:

Facts are FACTS............You not accepting these FACTS is like someone thinking the earth has been around only 6000 years, just because you chose to believe that doesn't make it truth brother. The bible was translated from Greek, so we know the WORDS Jesus/John used for Revelation. 

Which was is TRUE ? That is easy, Jesus can't lie, he stated ONLY the Father knows when He will send His Son (Jesus) back, so Rev. 1:1 backs that up.  At a FIXED point in time (unkown to Jesus) the Father will send Jesus who will COME IN HASTE !! 

It is relatively simple: your "facts" are myths to others. 

[iamlamad]

1 hour ago, Willie T said:

Does the book tell us , "as it is written", that we are to presume to read that particular "shortly" as meaning something other than when "shortly" is written elsewhere in the Bible?  I mean, how do we determine that we are to change the meaning of this particular "shortly", but not the meanings of others?

Why are you so hung up on one word?  We know the meaning of shortly has NOT YET COME TO PASS by all the other end times scriptures. If you wish to make all the future verses into historic verses in your thinking, go ahead. I won't do it. I know that NONE of the trumpet judgments have come to pass. You probably know it to - or you would tells us when each event happened in history.  No one has every been able to show the church world when the trumpet and vial judgments happened. No one ever will, until they happen!

[Willie T]

2 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

Why are you so hung up on one word?  We know the meaning of shortly has NOT YET COME TO PASS by all the other end times scriptures. If you wish to make all the future verses into historic verses in your thinking, go ahead. I won't do it. I know that NONE of the trumpet judgments have come to pass. You probably know it to - or you would tells us when each event happened in history.  No one has every been able to show the church world when the trumpet and vial judgments happened. No one ever will, until they happen!

I could do that, but I doubt you would be willing to read a book in which you can find much of that.  If you want to read it, I may give you a link when I get back from the Gym..

[Revelation Man]

2 hours ago, Willie T said:

Thank God that He gave YOU all the facts.  What would all the rest of us who obviously don't hear from The Holy Spirit do without you blessed ones?

Well you got it easy, I had to put in all the Prayer and study, luckily I am not stiff-necked, that enables me to see around corners. Denying the facts do not change the facts. 

[Revelation Man]

2 hours ago, Willie T said:

IF we insist on reading Revelation as only a Crystal Ball, foretelling a future time... and ignore that it was actually written to seven small, confused, and frightened churches who were seeing their friends killed, right and left... wondering if any of this relatively new Christ stuff was real and worth being slaughtered for.  (Many of them had never seen the guy this new "religion" was based on.  They needed John's reassurance, and he knew that as he penned that letter to them.)

So now we see your agenda, Revelation was all past, thus the SHORTLY shouldn't have been told because it messed up your thinking. How about adjusting to the facts brother, instead of adjusting the facts to your position. We are lucky the Scientists don't work like that else we might be in a lot of danger.

[Revelation Man]

2 hours ago, iamlamad said:

If I did explain when the two witnesses ministry will begin and end, you would not agree with it anyway, for your theories are man made, in spite of what you tell us.

That would be you, every time line I have seen by you is off. Its also something I have never seen anyone else come up with, all because you think Revelation runs in a Chronological Order from front to back which basically NO ONE Agrees with brother. 

2 hours ago, iamlamad said:

I know the Holy Spirit would not tell you one thing, and the rest of the church world something else - or even ME something else.

Pretty much all my positions are backed up by 90 percent of Christendom. Its just that i know how to put it all together properly, because that is my calling. 

 

2 hours ago, iamlamad said:

In spite of you telling us, you do NOT have a corner on the Holy Spirit's teaching!  Paul taught us to JUDGE what others say. If what you said agreed with the written word, that would be fine: the problem is, IT DOES NOT! 

That would be your thinking that doesn't add up, if my understandings did not nor COULD NOT add up like your time-lines, I would do away with them. Your timelines CAN NOT ADD UP, Period, and that is factual, and even you know it brother. You have the 70th Week starting at the 7th Trump, its makes ZERO SENSE Brother. 

What we need to do is get a Group of about 10 together and go through each chapter of Revelation line by line trying to agree via back and forth banter on the meaning and a Time-line etc. etc. etc. And then vote on going forth etc. etc. It might be fruitful, who knows. I am game.  

2 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Now, so  you will learn the truth: in Rev. 11:  1-2, John is showing us that the man of sin just arrived in Jerusalem. AFter all, He MUST be in Jerusalem if he is to enter the temple in Jerusalem. The two witnesses come because the man of sin just came. WHEN? They come when the man of sin came, which will be 3 1/2 days before the abomination that divides the week. They testify for 1260 days, which will take them to just 3 1/2 days before the 7th vial that ends the week. They lay dead for those 3 1/2 days, and God raises them up at the very same time He raises ALL THE REST of the Old Testament saints: at the 7th vial. 

 

That's just not the case brother, the Two-witnesses show up 1335 days before the Second Coming. You see I MATCH UP VIA Scriptures. WATCH: Malachi 4:5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord: 6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.

The Man of Sin doesn't even come via the AoD, that is done by the False Prophet. Look in Rev. 13, who places the Image f the Beast in the Temple brother? The False Prophet (at the 1290). The Man of Sin comes forth at the 1260 or the Middle of the Week. 

How can they both ARRIVE at the same time and both have "1260 DAY OFFICES" so to speak as per their reigns, one as the "Two-witnesses" and the other as "The Beast" but the Two-witnesses die at the 2nd Woe and the Beast dies at the 7th Vial ? In order for BOTH to reign in their OFFICES for 1260 days, of both show up at the SAME TIME then both would have to DIE at the exact SAME TIME !! You see, your time-line just doesn't ADD UP Brother. Mine does, the Two-witnesses show up first, just like Malachi 4:5-6 says.

The Seven Vials do not last for 3 1.2 days, GET OUT, that is what happens when people try to bend the scriptures to FIT Brother. 

The 7th Trumpet Sounds, and thus all Seven Vials are the 3rd Woe. Bit it will last for 75 Days, the 1335 is 75 days before the 1260. 

 

3 hours ago, iamlamad said:

It is relatively simple: your "facts" are myths to others. 

I am not the one confused brother. Of I was you would e the first to know because I seek truth. When I am telling you I know something, you better listen, I am E.F. Hutton. LOL. God Bless brother. Don't take it personal.