The Pretrib Rapture: An Entitlement for the Privileged Few?

[Marilyn C]

19 hours ago, Last Daze said:

Hi Marilyn,

Go ahead and make your case as to why all this necessitates a pretrib rapture so I can see the rationale behind it.  I'll assume that your views are correct for the sake of argument.

Hi Last Daze,

 

Yes, good idea, as we may well lose our way in the details.

 

So...We know that Jesus is at the right hand of the Father, till His enemies are made His footstool. Then He will take His great authority and begin to reign till He has put all enemies under His feet....putting an end to all rule and authority and power. (1 Cor. 15: 24 & 25)

 

We also know that the authority the Lord has is revealed as a KingPriest, and a High priest at that. Now where there is a High Priest, there are other priests.

These priests would also have to be -

 

1.Of the same order as the High Priest - a royal priest, kingpriest.

 

2.They would also need to be immortal and incorruptible.

 

3.They would need to have the Lord`s own nature, to be like Him.

 

4.They would need to be promised a position on the Lord`s own throne.

 

5. They would need to be told that they would also judge the world system and fallen angels, the enemies.

 

So do you know of any who meet those qualifications?

 

Regards, Marilyn.

[Last Daze]

6 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Last Daze,

 

Yes, good idea, as we may well lose our way in the details.

 

So...We know that Jesus is at the right hand of the Father, till His enemies are made His footstool. Then He will take His great authority and begin to reign till He has put all enemies under His feet....putting an end to all rule and authority and power. (1 Cor. 15: 24 & 25)

 

We also know that the authority the Lord has is revealed as a KingPriest, and a High priest at that. Now where there is a High Priest, there are other priests.

These priests would also have to be -

 

1.Of the same order as the High Priest - a royal priest, kingpriest.

 

2.They would also need to be immortal and incorruptible.

 

3.They would need to have the Lord`s own nature, to be like Him.

 

4.They would need to be promised a position on the Lord`s own throne.

 

5. They would need to be told that they would also judge the world system and fallen angels, the enemies.

 

So do you know of any who meet those qualifications?

 

Regards, Marilyn.

You're apparently referring to immortal believers.

I'll need support for #5.  Where does it say that we will judge the world system?  And where does it say that we will judge fallen angels?  Haven't fallen angels already been judged?  If not, then how did they become fallen?

[Marilyn C]

18 hours ago, Last Daze said:

You're apparently referring to immortal believers.

I'll need support for #5.  Where does it say that we will judge the world system?  And where does it say that we will judge fallen angels?  Haven't fallen angels already been judged?  If not, then how did they become fallen?

Hi Last Daze,

We`re in the middle of the outback and camping overnight here, and I`m surprised we get reception. I thought I`d write out the scriptures for any who are reading.

 

1.Of the same order as the High Priest - a royal priest, kingpriest.

`...you are a chosen generation, a ROYAL PRIESTHOOD, a holy nation, His own special people,.....` (1 Peter 2: 9)

`Jesus Christ......has made us kings and priests to His God and Father...` (Rev. 1: 6)

 

2.They would also need to be immortal and incorruptible.

`For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.` (1 Cor. 15: 53)

 

3.They would need to have the Lord`s own nature, to be like Him.

`For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the first-born among many brethren.` (Rom. 8: 29)

 

4.They would need to be promised a position on the Lord`s own throne.

`To Him who overcomes, I will grant to sit with me on my throne, as I overcame and sat down with my Father on His throne.` (Rev. 3: 21)

[Marilyn C]

5. They would need to be told that they would also judge the world system and fallen angels, the enemies.

 

`Do you not know that the saints will judge the world (system)?....Do you not know that we shall judge angels (fallen)?` (1 Cor. 6: 2 & 3)

 

Yes Satan and his (fallen angels) have been judged, however the executing of that is in stages. In the middle of the tribulation we read that they will be cast to the earth, from the principalities and powers realm. Their authority will be lessened.

 

God is revealing the extent that Satan and his fallen angels will go in rebellion against His anointed, the Lord Jesus Christ. But of course we know that they are a defeated foe and their rulership will be overthrown.

[Last Daze]

3 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

5. They would need to be told that they would also judge the world system and fallen angels, the enemies.

 

`Do you not know that the saints will judge the world (system)?....Do you not know that we shall judge angels (fallen)?` (1 Cor. 6: 2 & 3)

 

Yes Satan and his (fallen angels) have been judged, however the executing of that is in stages. In the middle of the tribulation we read that they will be cast to the earth, from the principalities and powers realm. Their authority will be lessened.

 

God is revealing the extent that Satan and his fallen angels will go in rebellion against His anointed, the Lord Jesus Christ. But of course we know that they are a defeated foe and their rulership will be overthrown.

I really don't have any issues with your points 1 - 4.  This one though seems to be forced.  I say that because the context of 1 Cor 6 is about conflict resolution.

• Does any one of you, when he has a case against his neighbor, dare to go to law before the unrighteous and not before the saints?  Or do you not know that the saints will judge the world? If the world is judged by you, are you not competent to constitute the smallest law courts?  Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more matters of this life?  1 Corinthians 6:1-3

The reference to judging the world is not about judging the world system.  It is about administration in the millennial kingdom when we will rule and reign with Jesus.  The saints are put in charge of governing the nations with Christ and judgment (conflict resolution through determinations, governing decisions) will be in the hands of the saints.

The idea that we will judge fallen angels is an assumption.  Fallen angels are already judged and condemned.  I can't find anywhere where humans have a part in carrying out the "down-casting" of fallen angels.

I don't see believers having any part in carrying out the judgment of the wicked, angels or humans.

[Marilyn C]

19 hours ago, Last Daze said:

The reference to judging the world is not about judging the world system.  It is about administration in the millennial kingdom when we will rule and reign with Jesus.  The saints are put in charge of governing the nations with Christ and judgment (conflict resolution through determinations, governing decisions) will be in the hands of the saints.

Hi Last Daze,

I have two points in relation to your comments; however I will only do one at a time so that you can think about it and reply.

Point 1. The Lord Jesus Christ is a KingPriest, which is two offices in one. The kings and priests on earth in the millennium will only hold one of those offices.

`Now this is the main point of things we are saying: We have such a high priest, who is seated at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens, a minister of the sanctuary and of the true tabernacle which the Lord erected, and not man.

For every high priest is appointed to offer both gifts and sacrifices. Therefore it is necessary that this one also should have something to offer.

For IF HE WERE ON EARTH, HE WOULD NOT be a priest, since there are priests who offer gifts according to the law; who serve the copy and shadow of the heavenly things.` (Heb. 8: 1 - 5)

Direct Statements.

1.The Lord Jesus Christ is the high Priest in the heavenly sanctuary.

2.He offered both gifts and sacrifice. (His pure life and blood)

3.He would not hold the office of priest if He were on earth, as they serve as a copy and shadow of the heavenly.

 

In the millennium, Kingship and priesthood will be two different offices.

`They (Israel) shall serve the Lord their God , and David their King...` (Jer. 30: 9)

`...the priests, the Levites, the sons of Zadok, who kept charge of my sanctuary when the children of Israel went astray from me, they shall come near me to minister before me to offer to me the fat and the blood,” says the Lord.

They shall enter my sanctuary, and they shall come near my table to minister to me, and they shall keep my charge.....and they shall teach my people the difference between the holy and the unholy, and cause them to discern between the unclean and the clean.

In controversy they shall stand as judges, and judge according to my judgments. They shall keep my laws and my statues in all my appointed meetings, and they shall hallow my Sabbaths.”  (Ezekiel 44: 15, 16, & 23 & 24)

 

Direct statements.

1.God will appoint a king named David to be king over Israel at the start of the millennium. (Later we see that his sons follow. Ez.46: 16)

2.This kingship does not include the office of a priest.

3.The Priests will be of the tribe of Levi and from the house of Zadok.

4.These priests shall minister to the Lord in the earthly sanctuary.

5. They shall also be teachers and stand as judges.

 

Thus we see that the Lord Jesus Christ holds the two most important offices - High Priest and King. From this supreme position He will rule and minister over Israel and the nations in the millennium from on high. By His Holy Spirit He will guide and teach His people Israel to do what He purposed them to do - rule righteously over the nations of the earth.

The Body of Christ will be alongside the Head, the Lord Jesus Christ, and rule and minister also from the Lord`s own throne.

 

regards, Marilyn.

 

[Last Daze]

4 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

The Body of Christ will be alongside the Head, the Lord Jesus Christ, and rule and minister also from the Lord`s own throne.

That's subject to interpretation but go ahead.

[Marilyn C]

19 hours ago, Last Daze said:

That's subject to interpretation but go ahead.

Hi Last Daze,

Point 2. The heavenly court is the Body of Christ.

So we see that in the millennium there will be priests in Israel. They are the sons of Zadok, and as well as ministering in the sanctuary, and teaching, they will also have the responsibility of judging.

`In controversy they shall stand as judges, and judge according to my judgments....` (Ez. 44: 24)

Now the kingpriests in the higher realm also have this responsibility of bringing judgment according to the Lord`s judgments. As I wrote previously -

`Do you not know that the saints will judge the world (system)?....Do you not know that we shall judge angels (fallen)?` (1 Cor. 6: 2 & 3)

 

So is there anywhere in God`s word that we see a heavenly court judging the world system, alongside the Lord? I believe there is.

 

`I watched till thrones were put in place, and the Ancient of Days; His garment was white as snow, and the hair of His head was like pure wool. His throne was a fiery flame, its wheels a burning fire; a fiery stream issued and came forth from before Him.

A thousand thousands ministered to Him; ten thousand times ten thousand stood before Him.

 

The court was seated the books were opened.......

 

Behold, one like the Son of Man....to Him was given dominion glory and a kingdom...

 

The Ancient of Days came, and a judgment was made in favour of the saints of the Most High,.....

 

The court shall be seated and they shall take away his (anti-Christ) dominion, to consume it and destroy it forever.` (Dan. 7: 9, 10, 22 & 26)

 

Direct Statements.

 

1.The saints (Body of Christ) has been told that they will judge the world system and (fallen) angels.

 

2.The Ancient of Days, (the Godhead) are `seen` on a fiery, (judgment) throne.

 

3. Myriad of angelic beings are there.

 

4.Thrones are put in place and a heavenly court is seated.

 

5. The glorified Son of Man (God in human form) receives the dominion, glory and kingdom.

 

6. The Ancient of Days, (Godhead) passes judgment upon the world system, (headed up by the anti-Christ).

 

7.The heavenly court shall take away the anti-Christ`s dominion, (world system).

 

8. The saints, (Israel) will receive the kingdom.

 

This is the vision (I believe) of the glorified Son of Man receiving from the Godhead, (Father, Son & Holy Spirit) the dominion, glory and kingdom.  The Body of Christ is there with its Head, (Christ) and is the heavenly court passing judgment upon the leader & world system.

 

Do we actually `see` the Body ruling and reigning with Christ in the heavenly realms and agreeing with the Lord`s judgments? Yes, I believe so......To be continued.

 

 

 Marilyn.

 

[Last Daze]

2 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Do we actually `see` the Body ruling and reigning with Christ in the heavenly realms and agreeing with the Lord`s judgments? Yes, I believe so......To be continued.

So, is your argument for a pretrib rapture based on the idea that the church must be in heaven to help God judge the wicked?  If not, would you state exactly what it is in a concise manner so we can wrap this up?  Thanks.

[Marilyn C]

20 hours ago, Last Daze said:

So, is your argument for a pretrib rapture based on the idea that the church must be in heaven to help God judge the wicked?  If not, would you state exactly what it is in a concise manner so we can wrap this up?  Thanks.

Hi Last Daze,

 

I agree bro, Time to wrap this up. So......

 

We know that God the Father purposed that `all things` come together in Christ. `All things,` were made by the Lord, visible and invisible with rulership positions.

 

The proper functioning of creation requires righteous rulership, and God the Father desires that His Son would be the pre-eminent one amid many brethren. And each rulership position would be held by His Son with others who would be `called out` for that rulership.

 

Because rebellion entered rulership on all created realms, there needs to be a restoring of righteous rulership in every created realm, from the angelic realm, where Lucifer, the kingpriest, rebelled, through the Principalities and powers realm, to the earth. All rulership must come under the dominion, power and authority of the Lord Jesus Christ, God`s (Father`s) only Son.

 

He alone prevailed against the enemy and He alone is worthy to hold supreme rulership in every realm with those He `calls out` for that. Thus in God the Father`s timing His Son will be recognised as invested with power and authority, firstly, in the third heaven, the angelic realm, along with His brethren, His Body who will rule and reign with Him there.

 

These `called out` brethren will be made like Him, and be of the `high calling,` kingpriests. Thus, with their High Priest, the Lord Jesus Christ, they will serve God the Father and Christ, their Head, and rule over the earth.