The timing of the 6th seal

[iamlamad]

2 minutes ago, Oseas Ramos de Siqueira said:

Speaking of a Rod of Iron, you are a follower of the false Christianity preached by the idolater and satanic Church that is the Roman Catholic Church, the Great Whore, the woman which rides upon the Beast enthroned in the Vatican City., which will be cast alive in the lake of fire together with the Beast who will rise up out of the earth very ver soon.  Their followers and worshippers will also be cast into the lake of fire. 

Speaking of a Rod of Iron, the fearful or cowards, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.    

Contrary to what you think, I am a born again, Holy Ghost filled,  believer in our Lord Jesus Christ. And I love you as a brother even though you are not acting like a brother.  And why is this? Only because I will not follow your false theories. 

[Dennis1209]

11 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

Hi Dennis.....

The word 'church' may not be mentioned, but 'saints' and 'brethren' are. So are you saying that these are not part of the church?

I really don't understand your question? The Saints, believers, brethren are the body of Christ, the true church.

[Dennis1209]

On 7/16/2018 at 1:16 AM, Traveler said:

There are times when we perhaps over think things. The rapture does happen in the sixth seal but before that comes the persecution of the fifth seal.  We are starting to see the anti Christian movements grow world wide. We are being killed off all over the place and here in the west we are an affront to every gay out there with the blessings of the state. The world does know that what they are doing is wrong even if the pretend otherwise.!

But note what the world says during the events of the sixth seal;

Rev 6:15  And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
Rev 6:16  And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Rev 6:17  For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

The world will know and understand that they are being punished for what they did to Christ and his bride during this time now. But the punishment will not come until after the crime has been committed.

Hi Traveler,

Here's the way I see it. Christians have been and will be subject to tribulation and persecution here on Earth for the Name of Jesus by man and demonic forces. But we are not subject to the wrath of God's judgment and punishment in the "Great Tribulation". We are covered by the blood of our Lord and Savior dying on the cross. I think the Bible is clear when the exact moment of the tribulation (Daniel's 70th week, the time of Jacob's trouble) occurs. The reveling of the Anitchrist at the signing of the seven year confirmation of a peace covenant. 

God is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow and will never change, He is loving patient, just and righteous. God has never judged and punished the Saints unjustly along with the rebellious and ungodly. Three quick prime examples; Enoch, Lot and Noah. Can you quote from scripture when the Lord condemned, punished and destroyed the Saints and righteous along with the wicked and unrighteous? The purpose of Daniel's 70th week (tribulation), is to punish great wickedness and sin, the revelation of Jesus Christ and the world to repent and accept Him as Lord and Savior, and to show Israel, His chosen people as a nation, whom they pierced and crucified to come to repentance and call upon the Name of the Lord for deliverance and Salvation. It is not judgment / punishment for those that have accepted the free gift of Salvation.

It's unbiblical and makes no sense for the Lord to not separate the sheep from the goats in judgment and punishment. I don't believe for one second those that have accepted Jesus as their Master, Lord and Savior will be in any part of the tribulation. Therefor we comfort one another with these words. 

[Heb 13:8]

11 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Of course the 4th beast of Daniel 7 is future, but he is NOT one of the five heads that John wrote were already history.  He is the one still to come. And this is what happens when you understand John.

No iam, John's vision of the beast is still future. This is the latter half of the 70th week...

Dan 7:25 He will speak against the Most High and oppress his holy people and try to change the set times and the laws. The holy people will be delivered into his hands for a time, times and half a time.

Dan 12:7 The man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, lifted his right hand and his left hand toward heaven, and I heard him swear by him who lives forever, saying, “It will be for a time, times and half a time. When the power of the holy people has been finally broken, all these things will be completed.”

Rev 11:2 But exclude the outer court; do not measure it, because it has been given to the Gentiles. They will trample on the holy city for 42 months. 

Rev 12:14 The woman was given the two wings of a great eagle, so that she might fly to the place prepared for her in the wilderness, where she would be taken care of for a time, times and half a time, out of the serpent's reach.

Rev 13:5 The beast was given a mouth to utter proud words and blasphemies and to exercise its authority for forty-two months.

[JoeCanada]

4 hours ago, Dennis1209 said:

I really don't understand your question? The Saints, believers, brethren are the body of Christ, the true church.

Hi Dennis....

You said that the 'church' is not mentioned after Rev 3. But the 'saints, brethren,believers and elect' are mentioned after Rev 3. , right thru till the end of Rev.

"Then suddenly the church is not mentioned ever again until the end of the book"..........I'm in disagreement of this statement

Are you implying that the 'church' not being mentioned after Rev 3 means that the church is not there at all? That they are raptured early, when John is called to heaven....'come up hither'......?

 

[Dennis1209]

1 hour ago, JoeCanada said:

Hi Dennis....

You said that the 'church' is not mentioned after Rev 3. But the 'saints, brethren,believers and elect' are mentioned after Rev 3. , right thru till the end of Rev.

"Then suddenly the church is not mentioned ever again until the end of the book"..........I'm in disagreement of this statement

Are you implying that the 'church' not being mentioned after Rev 3 means that the church is not there at all? That they are raptured early, when John is called to heaven....'come up hither'......?

 

Hey Joe,

OK I see what you're saying now. 

Yes, it's my belief Rev 4: 1 when John is called up is a representation of the Rapture of the church. Like I mentioned earlier, the church is there and mentioned some 19 times in the first three chapters, then suddenly gone. I'm talking about the end of the age of Grace (church age dispensation) starting at Revelation 4:1. Sure, there's going to be people saved afterwards during the tribulation and are called Saints, but in my opinion those are the ones who were on the fence and/ or never truly accepted the Lord as their personal Savior. Apparently the vast majority will be martyred and be killed for their faith and missed the Rapture.

I realize there's many different views of the Rapture and its timing, or if it's going to occur at all. But I'm just stating my life long and unchangeable view based on my reading and interpretation of scripture.

[JoeCanada]

4 hours ago, Dennis1209 said:

Hey Joe,

OK I see what you're saying now. 

Yes, it's my belief Rev 4: 1 when John is called up is a representation of the Rapture of the church. Like I mentioned earlier, the church is there and mentioned some 19 times in the first three chapters, then suddenly gone. I'm talking about the end of the age of Grace (church age dispensation) starting at Revelation 4:1. Sure, there's going to be people saved afterwards during the tribulation and are called Saints, but in my opinion those are the ones who were on the fence and/ or never truly accepted the Lord as their personal Savior. Apparently the vast majority will be martyred and be killed for their faith and missed the Rapture.

I realize there's many different views of the Rapture and its timing, or if it's going to occur at all. But I'm just stating my life long and unchangeable view based on my reading and interpretation of scripture.

Hi Dennis....

"  But I'm just stating my life long and unchangeable view based on my reading and interpretation of scripture."

 

2 Peter 1:20....." But know this first of all, that no prophecy of scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation"

If we look at Rev 4, John says....'After this I looked and behold.......come up hither......and immediately "I" was in the spirit"....and behold, a throne was set in heaven"

Continuing on in Rev 5.....verse 6......" " And I beheld, and lo....in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb

Rev 5....verse 11...... "And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand and thousands of thousands..."

Rev 6 is the opening of the 7 sealed scroll and then in Rev 7.....verse 9...... " After this, I beheld, and Lo, a great multitude which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds and people, and tongues, stood before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palms in their hands"

" BEHOLD......BEHELD........ means to see or observe (a thing or person, especially a remarkable or impressive one).

So here is what I'm saying. If John and the dead in Christ and the alive in Christ were raptured up in Rev 4, why did he not see them until Rev 7:9?

John never mentions seeing this massive group of saints until Rev 7:9...... He never mentions them in Rev 4, 5 or 6.............. Where were they?

[Larry 2]

23 hours ago, Oseas Ramos de Siqueira said:

Yes, this man child is Michael (Dan.12:v.1), but not JESUS.   JESUS would not go to be born again in the time of Apocalypse evidently.  Furthermore, Revelation 1:v.1 says:   1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto Him, to shew unto His servants things which must shortly come to pass; and He sent and signified it by His angel unto His servant John:   (Now, now, JESUS was not revealing He would go to be born in this present time, of course.) 

I have no idea how you came up with Michael as being the Man Child born of the wonder woman of Rev 12:1. I'm supposing you've bought into the idea of the Lord's Day being Sunday instead the beginning future Day of the Lord that I say John was caught forward to, and that to record what is to occur from that viewpoint, write of them, and send them unto the seven churches located in Asia. Thanks.

Edited July 28, 2018 by Larry 2

[Steve_S]

4 hours ago, Oseas Ramos de Siqueira said:

Oh! not he that commends himself is approved, but the one whom the Lord commends. They which measure themselves by themselves, and compare themselves by themselves, are not wise.

You do not deceive me with your spirit and words. See, even the Lord Jesus Christ, the only Son of God testified, saying:  "If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true, there is another that bears witness of me; and I know that the witness which he witnesses of me is true".  JESUS was and is wise, you not. 

You do not deceive me with your spirit and your words. I know your spirit, by the way a deceiver spirit, a disguised spirit. I have a sharp Sword to fight against a devilish spirit like yours. If anyone thinks they are something when they are not, they deceive themselves.

 

Again, you do not deceive me with your dissimulated spirit and your deceiver words. You do not have in mind the things that be of God, but those that be of men. Get behind me, deceiver spirit, you are a stumbling block to me.  

 

You do not have in mind the things that be of God, but those that be of men. Get behind me, deceiver spirit, you are a stumbling block to me.  

 

Oseas Ramos de Siqueira removed from thread for this post.

[iamlamad]

20 hours ago, Heb 13:8 said:

No iam, John's vision of the beast is still future. This is the latter half of the 70th week...

Dan 7:25 He will speak against the Most High and oppress his holy people and try to change the set times and the laws. The holy people will be delivered into his hands for a time, times and half a time.

Dan 12:7 The man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, lifted his right hand and his left hand toward heaven, and I heard him swear by him who lives forever, saying, “It will be for a time, times and half a time. When the power of the holy people has been finally broken, all these things will be completed.”

Rev 11:2 But exclude the outer court; do not measure it, because it has been given to the Gentiles. They will trample on the holy city for 42 months. 

Rev 12:14 The woman was given the two wings of a great eagle, so that she might fly to the place prepared for her in the wilderness, where she would be taken care of for a time, times and half a time, out of the serpent's reach.

Rev 13:5 The beast was given a mouth to utter proud words and blasphemies and to exercise its authority for forty-two months.

You made a nice side step. It is chapters 4 & 5 I was speaking of, the vision of the throne room where Jesus was NOT seen - until suddenly He arrived - as seen in chapter 5.

We were talking about the HEADS: Rev. 17

⁹ And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.

¹⁰ And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.

Most commentators agree that the five fallen were Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medo-Persia, and Greece. Why Fallen? Take Greece for example: Alexander the Great conquered, 4 generals took over, and for hundreds of years ruled. But the Kings of the North ruled over Israel - the Seleucid Empire.  Daniel covers this in Daniel 11. 

If you think the "five fallen" has a different meaning, show us.