Muslims Turning to Christ

[frienduff thaylorde]

9 hours ago, Davida said:

Now, don't you go bringing up history and facts into the discussion   1to3  , or you'll be told that they weren't real muslims or they were just misunderstanders of Islam, or perhaps it was mental illness from spending so much time at sea made them violent & want to kill people and steal their stuff?  

That is what I have noticed .  WHY would a man defend that religion .   Why defend and contend for any religion that is contrary to Christ .

Buddism is a peaceful religion , YET OF SATAN , just like all other mindsets contrary to Christ are of satan , just as we all once were under satans influence.

So why would a man contend and defend any religion OTHER THAN our own .     I don't think Bajoa is a muslim ,  but I do think

he might already be infected with an inclusive mindset .     Whether folks want to hear it or not , THIS INCLUVISM IS THE RELIGOIN that will capture all religions and make them as one

The only ones who will not go under it , WILL be those who TRULY in SPIRIT , TRUTH N HEART LOVED ONLY the LAMB.

 

[LadyKay]

5 minutes ago, Davida said:

How would you know if you haven't bothered to do any study yourself?  

Davida, you know nothing about me. You have no ideal how I spend my time or what it is I study. So just stop. I would like to be able to have a civil discussion here. 

[other one]

23 minutes ago, LadyKay said:

Davida, you know nothing about me. You have no ideal how I spend my time or what it is I study. So just stop. I would like to be able to have a civil discussion here. 

we've been reading your posts here for a bit over 5 years....    I believe we know more about you than you realize.....   unless you are totally fake posting here.....   that would be really sad if true.

[LadyKay]

I feel the need to remind some people that this thread is not title "Lets bash LadyKay.  Now. Can we all get back to the topic of this thread and talk about that . Thank You.  

Edited August 21, 2018 by LadyKay

[one.opinion]

3 hours ago, LadyKay said:

Davida, you know nothing about me. You have no ideal how I spend my time or what it is I study. So just stop. I would like to be able to have a civil discussion here. 

Sorry, LadyKay, but you are definitely NOT on a topic that lends itself to civil discussion here.

[Fidei Defensor]

9 hours ago, Badjao33 said:

 

If they are the ones who said that Muhammad thought the message he received was a lie and that he thought it was a jinn that visited him, then they are in error. If you heard this from a Muslim, then their interpretation has been influenced by Christian evangelists at some point. That account isn't taught in Islam and Muslims don't believe that way. In that hadith there was no confusion on Muhammad's part as to the message he received. He was only concerned what might happen to him since an angel had visited him and reveled a message to him. I will give a summarized narration of the hadith below to show this. 

The beginning of the revelation to Muhammad was in the form of good dreams which came true like bright daylight; then, the love of seclusion was bestowed upon him.

Muhammad: “I fear that something may happen to me.”

Khadija, Muhammad's wife replied, “Never! By Allah, Allah will never disgrace you..."

Muhammad and his wife then go to her cousin Waraqa who is a Christian where he asks:

“O my nephew, what have you seen?”

After Muhammad tells what had happened, Waraqa said:

 “This is the same one who keeps the secrets whom Allah had sent to Moses."

Muhammad then asked:

“Will they drive me out?”

In which he replied:

“Yes, anyone who came with something similar to what you have brought was treated with hostility;"

 As can be seen, according to the hadith, Muhammad never thought what was revealed to him was a lie or that it was a jinn that visited him. Muhammad even called the visitor an angel when he first told his wife about what had happened.

 “The angel caught me and pressed me so hard that I could not bear it any more." 

Had Muhammad thought it was a jinn or that he felt what he received was a lie, it would have been mentioned somewhere in that hadith. We on the other hand know that what Muhammad received was a lie and not from God.

The Qur'an being the word of God/Allah is Islam 101. Every true Muslim considers the Qur'an to be the word of God. The Qur'an is believed by Muslims to be the direct word of God which originated from the "Mother of Books" which is in the presence of God. 

All of the books sent to the messengers are considered to be the word of God in Islam. Since Muslims believe the Qur'an is the final book revealed to mankind, then if the question were asked: "Where is your word?" The natural response would be to answer with the Qur'an without hesitation. I can't imagine a Muslim answering any other way. 

 The Islamic concept of "His Word" and the Christian view is different when it comes to Jesus. Muslims do not believe that Jesus was divine and they also don't recognize our New Testament as being from God, so they completely reject John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." Muslims do believe that Jesus is God’s "Word", but only in the sense that He came into existence by God’s Word.

In Islam, God has never came down to mankind. He has only sent his word down to his messengers to reveal himself and his instructions to mankind. These revelations have always been limited to the words of the prophets and their writings. Muslims do not comprehend the fact that God loves us so much that He decided to dwell among us. That level of love is not understood by Muslims.

Here is another translation of Qur'an 4:171:

“The Messiah Isa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary), was (no more than) a Messenger of Allah and His Word, ("Be!" - and he was) which He bestowed on Maryam (Mary) and a spirit (Rooh)[] created by Him; so believe in Allah and His Messengers. Say not: ‘Three (trinity)!’ Cease! (it is) better for you. For Allah is (the only) One Ilaah (God), glory be to Him (Far Exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belongs all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth. And Allah is All-Sufficient as a Disposer of affairs”

And one more:

 Isa son of Marium is only a messenger of Allah and His Word which He communicated to Marium 

As can be seen, where it uses the term "His Word", it means He came into existence by God’s Word. "God said 'Be' and he was" or  "which he communicated". This is still a good door opener to introduce Muslims to the gospel though as we can cross reference what is written in our Bible to that of the Qur'an. 

Also, the Muslim concept of the Trinity is different than the Christian point of view. In Islam the trinity involves God (The father), Mary (The mother), and Jesus (The son).  The idea that God had a husband/wife relationship with Mary, a human, and bore a son as a result of this relationship is repulsive to Muslims and rightly so. We also reject that concept. This was the problem that Muslims had/have with some Christians, and the reason for that verse you quoted being written. Muhammad could see how much emphasis many Christians were putting on "Mother Mary" and to him it appeared that they were suggesting that God and Mary had a "marriage" and were equating her and the son they had together with God.

 And God will say, “O Jesus son of Mary, did you say to the people, `Take me and my mother as gods rather than God?'“ He will say, “Glory be to You! It is not for me to say what I have no right to. Had I said it, You would have known it. You know what is in my soul, and I do not know what is in Your soul. (Qur'an 5:116)

We of course believe the trinity to comprise of the "Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,” (Matthew 28:19) 

 

Actually the Muslims I talked with had no concept of Christianity outside of their Islamic understanding. The reason the First Hadith contains Muhammad’s doubt and him calling the Spirit (Gibriel) a Jinn is for posterity, to show that their prophet doubted but came around. This would serve Muslims well would it not? If the prophet doubted then they can too. 

As for Isa being the Word, Allah calls every messanger a carrier of his words, but in Isa’s case he calls him the word, “And mention] when the angels said, "O Mary, indeed Allah gives you good tidings of a Word from Him, whose name will be the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary - distinguished in this world and the Hereafter and among those brought near [to Allah ].” (Quran 3:45)

The Quran actually means “to be recited,” or “collect.”: 

“1) it is driven from al-Qar` meaning `to collect`.
2) It is driven from `Qara` (to recite).

Thus, it is called `the Quran` for it is a Book to be recited (73:4), or because the revelation began by `Read` (96:1). The second opinion (driven from the root ‘to recite’) seems more accurate.” (Sheikh Mansour Leghaei). 

If the Quran was the word of God according to Allah or his prophet would it not have been named: “kalām ‘an Allah: the word of god.” ?

Your claim that the Quran is the word of God to Muslims actually is a Christian concept. It is Christian denominations that started calling the Holy Bible the Word of God, which is an error. We as Christians are suppose to call Jesus Christ the Word of God (John 1:1-17, Revelation 19:11-16), for the Bible is the written words of God and God breathed (2 Timothy 3:16, 2 Peter 1:20-21)

You cite another translation of the Koran. This brings me to another question, Muslims claim our book has been changed, but in effect the Quran has five approved translations (there are more), several of which differ drastically, one doesn’t even use the name Allah at all. So the argument against our Holy Book is really a smoke screen to cover up what that the the Koran has changed: An example: 

“Fight unbelievers who are near to you." Quran 9:123 (different translation:
Believers! Make war on the infidels who dwell around you. Let them find harshness in you. (another source: ) Ye who believe! Murder those of the disbelievers...“ 

“Fight those who believe neither in God nor the Last Day, nor what has been forbidden by God and his messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, even if they are People of the Book, until they pay the tribute and have been humbled. - Quran 9:29 (another source: ) The unbelievers are impure and their abode is hell. (another source: ) Humiliate the non-Muslims to such an extent that they surrender and pay tribute.

?To be clear in case anyone is reading and thinks Islam agrees with our Christian faith, let me be clear Allah is not the Lord God, and here is what the Koran says that renders asunder all harmony between Christian and Muslim spiritually: ✝️?☪️: 

“Quran 4:157 That they said (in boast), “We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah”;—but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them,
and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only
conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him.” (Contradicted by Gospels of John 19, Matthew 27, see below)

“"O believers, take not Jews and Christians as friends; they are friends of each other. Those of you who make them his friends is one of them. God does not guide an unjust people." -Quran 5:54, according to Muhammad we arnt suppose to be friends. 

“O Prophet! Make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites. Be harsh with them. Their ultimate abode is hell, a hapless journey's end." -Quran  9:73

“blasphemy indeed are those that say that Allah is Christ the son of Mary.” (Quran 5:17) 

“Quran 5:75: Christ the son of Mary was no more than a messenger; many were the messengers.” Here we see Islam is like all other religions and groups like Coptic Christianity, Mormons, and etc which will call Jesus a prophet or messanger, but refuse to call Him His true name and by who He is Lord God Jesus Christ (Romans 10:9-10, Colossians 2:8-9, Titus 2:13, 2 Peter 1:1-2, John 1:1-17, Revelation 19:11-16).

We Christians affirm that Jesus died on the cross and was witnessed by His mother Mary: 

“So they took Jesus away. 17 Carrying the cross by himself, he went to the place called Place of the Skull (in Hebrew, Golgotha). 18 There they nailed him to the cross. Two others were crucified with him, one on either side, with Jesus between them. 19 And Pilate posted a sign on the cross that read, “Jesus of Nazareth,[d] the King of the Jews.” 20 The place where Jesus was crucified was near the city, and the sign was written in Hebrew, Latin, and Greek, so that many people could read it.

21 Then the leading priests objected and said to Pilate, “Change it from ‘The King of the Jews’ to ‘He said, I am King of the Jews.’”

22 Pilate replied, “No, what I have written, I have written.”

23 When the soldiers had crucified Jesus, they divided his clothes among the four of them. They also took his robe, but it was seamless, woven in one piece from top to bottom. 24 So they said, “Rather than tearing it apart, let’s throw dice[e] for it.” This fulfilled the Scripture that says, “They divided my garments among themselves and threw dice for my clothing.”[f] So that is what they did.

25 Standing near the cross were Jesus’ mother, and his mother’s sister, Mary (the wife of Clopas), and Mary Magdalene.26 When Jesus saw his mother standing there beside the disciple he loved, he said to her, “Dear woman, here is your son.”27 And he said to this disciple, “Here is your mother.” And from then on this disciple took her into his home.

The Death of Jesus

28 Jesus knew that his mission was now finished, and to fulfill Scripture he said, “I am thirsty.”[g] 29 A jar of sour wine was sitting there, so they soaked a sponge in it, put it on a hyssop branch, and held it up to his lips. 30 When Jesus had tasted it, he said, “It is finished!” Then he bowed his head and gave up his spirit.” (John 20:16-20). Contrary to the Quran, Jesus did die via crucifixion, and was witnessed by John His Apostle, his mother Mary, and others. The annuls of Rome, the season archives declare Jesus was crucified, Romans made no mistakes, to loose a charge, to not do their duty meant death for centurion, hence why Pilate gave the body over knowing Jesus was dead, “58 Going to Pilate, he asked for Jesus’ body, and Pilate ordered that it be given to him,” (Matthew 27:58) and Pilate made sure by Roman seal that the tomb of Jesus was sealed, “Take a guard,” Pilate answered. “Go, make the tomb as secure as you know how.” 66 So they went and made the tomb secure by putting a seal on the stone and posting the guard.” (Matthew 27:65-66). Pontius Pilate, Prefext of Judea, Governor and hand of Cesar and the Senate In Judea made sure Jesus was the one Crucified (John 20, Matthew 27) and that His tomb was sealed with a guard and yet Jesus Christ, who is God rose from the dead, “

Early on the first day of the week, while it was still dark, Mary Magdalene went to the tomb and saw that the stone had been removed from the entrance. 2 So she came running to Simon Peter and the other disciple, the one Jesus loved, and said, “They have taken the Lord out of the tomb, and we don’t know where they have put him!”

3 So Peter and the other disciple started for the tomb. 4 Both were running, but the other disciple outran Peter and reached the tomb first. 5 He bent over and looked in at the strips of linen lying there but did not go in.6 Then Simon Peter came along behind him and went straight into the tomb. He saw the strips of linen lying there, 7 as well as the cloth that had been wrapped around Jesus’ head. The cloth was still lying in its place, separate from the linen. 8 Finally the other disciple, who had reached the tomb first,also went inside. He saw and believed.9 (They still did not understand from Scripture that Jesus had to rise from the dead.) 10 Then the disciples went back to where they were staying.

11 Now Mary stood outside the tomb crying. As she wept, she bent over to look into the tomb 12 and saw two angels in white,seated where Jesus’ body had been, one at the head and the other at the foot.

13 They asked her, “Woman, why are you crying?”

“They have taken my Lord away,” she said, “and I don’t know where they have put him.” 14 At this, she turned around and saw Jesus standing there, but she did not realize that it was Jesus.

15 He asked her, “Woman, why are you crying? Who is it you are looking for?”

Thinking he was the gardener, she said, “Sir, if you have carried him away, tell me where you have put him, and I will get him.”

16 Jesus said to her, “Mary.”

She turned toward him and cried out in Aramaic, “Rabboni!” (which means “Teacher”).

17 Jesus said, “Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’”

18 Mary Magdalene went to the discipleswith the news: “I have seen the Lord!” And she told them that he had said these things to her.

Jesus Appears to His Disciples

19 On the evening of that first day of the week, when the disciples were together, with the doors locked for fear of the Jewish leaders, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you!”20 After he said this, he showed them his hands and side. The disciples were overjoyed when they saw the Lord.

21 Again Jesus said, “Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you.”22 And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive anyone’s sins, their sins are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.”

Jesus Appears to Thomas

24 Now Thomas (also known as Didymus[a]), one of the Twelve, was not with the disciples when Jesus came. 25 So the other disciples told him, “We have seen the Lord!”

But he said to them, “Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe.”

26 A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peacebe with you!” 27 Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe.”

28 Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!”

29 Then Jesus told him, “Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”

The Purpose of John’s Gospel

30 Jesus performed many other signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not recorded in this book. 31 But these are written that you may believe[b] that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.” (John 20:1-31). 

Christianity and Islam cannot be in harmony. We Christians believe Jesus Christ is God, He is One with the Father who is God and One with the Hoky Spirit who is God: One God in Three Persons, Blessed Trinity (John 1:1-17, John 10:18-30, John 14:6, John 14:26, John 15:26, 1 Peter 1:1-2, Colossians 2:9 KJV, Hebrews 1:1-21, Hebrews 10:1-21, Hebrew 9:27, Phillipians 4:2-11 NLT, Matthew 28:19, Isaiah 9:6, Genesis 11:26-27, Genesis 18:1-11). 

We Christians believe Jesus Christ who is God became a man (John 1:1-17, 1 John 4;1-3) and died for our sins on the cross and has reconciled us and gives us eternal life and paradise through faith in Him alone (Romans 10:9-10, Phillipians 3:8-10, Romans 5:2-18, Hebrews 10:1-23, Hebrews 9:27, 1 Peter 3:18, 1 Peter 2:22, John 3:16, John 6:40, 1 John 4:15, Acts 4:10-12, Acts 15:11, Ephensians 2:8-9). Amen. 

Edited August 21, 2018 by Fidei Defensor

[frienduff thaylorde]

4 hours ago, Badjao33 said:

It would serve them well if this was the impression that the hadith gave, but it doesn't. Where are you getting that Muhammad ever called the spirit a jinn? There is also no indication of doubt on Muhammad's part in the hadith. He was concerned about his well being after this revelation. He wasn't doubting the revelation he received. 

Jesus was a "Word" from God, not the word. The Christian concept of the Word is completely different from the Islamic concept of the word.

In the Qur'an, when ever God creates something he says the word "Be" and it happens. 

"It is He who gives life and causes death; and when He decrees a matter, He but says to it, ‘Be,’ and it is." (Quran 40:68)

Here is the verse where God creates Adam:

"Indeed the likeness of Jesus to God as the likeness of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him, ‘Be,’ and he was." (Quran 3:59)

Here is the account where the angel tells Mary she will have a son. 

"‘My Lord,’ said Mary, how shall I have a son when no man has ever touched me?" (Quran 3:47)

The angel answered,

"Thus it is: God creates what He wills: When he decrees a matter, He only says to it: ‘Be,’ and it is." (Quran 3:47)

And here are all of the verses in the Qur'an where Jesus is called "His Word"

The Messiah Isa, son of Mary, was no more than a Messenger of Allah and His Word, ("Be!" - and he was) which He bestowed on Mary and a spirit created by Him; so believe in Allah and His Messengers. 

The verse says Jesus is "no more than a messenger", so he can not be "God's Word", he is simply a messenger. When the Qur'an says that Jesus was God's Word, it just means that God created Him just as he did Adam. In Islam, Adam and Jesus were both created by God. This is what makes them special as apposed to other prophets found in the Qur'an like Abraham, David, and Muhammad.  

In Islam, only the Arabic Qur'an is considered to be the true word of God. All others are just translations. As with any translations there will be variances in interpretation, but the message will generally be the same. This is why learning Arabic is encouraged for all Muslims so that they will be able to read the "true word of God" rather than a translation. I put that in quotations because that is not what I as a Christian believe. 

Jesus was a "Word" from God, not the word

 

GOODNESS.  this man defends the muslims ,  BUT LOOK at what he says about JESUS .   a word .    SOMETHING aint right at all.

 

[walla299]

On 8/8/2018 at 2:10 PM, LadyKay said:

I disagree. Gaining knowledge is always a good thing.  

But knowing the truth of Christ and the gospel will light up error like a flaming oil slick at sea on a dark night.

[walla299]

8 hours ago, Badjao33 said:

In Islam, only the Arabic Qur'an is considered to be the true word of God. All others are just translations. As with any translations there will be variances in interpretation, but the message will generally be the same. This is why learning Arabic is encouraged for all Muslims so that they will be able to read the "true word of God" rather than a translation. I put that in quotations because that is not what I as a Christian believe. 

I've seen you post extensively on Islam, but not about Jesus. I'm curious why that is. The OP was originally about Muslims turning to Christ after all.

[Fidei Defensor]

10 hours ago, Davida said:

Yes Islam teaches another Jesus, another god, and another end prophecy. Those who get saved out of Islam read about the real Jesus in the Bible and it changes their lives! praise God! 

Indeed, Islam is the primier false Christ and false prophet religion: “there will be false christs and false prophets who will work wonders to deceive if possible the elect.” (Matthew 24:24).