Why so much disagreement on the start of THE DAY?

[Alan Hales]

47 minutes ago, Steve Conley said:

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

Alan, I misjudged you. I thought you might be interested in truth, but it appears that you are blind to your own eisegesis and circular reasoning. I was blind once also, but God had mercy upon me and allowed me to see that the foundation of the pre-trib system is made up of misunderstandings, assumptions, inferences, and the desperate wresting of Scriptural texts. It all began when I wanted a better, more thorough, understanding of the day of the Lord. It was then that God removed the blinders created by pretribulational dispensationalism.

The Lord confronted me with an unambiguous statement of the prophet Joel, one that Peter quoted on the day of Pentecost. "The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come."(Joel 2:31) Joel says that a notable cosmic sign would appear prior to the commencement of the day of the Lord. The day of the Lord is when Christ's eschatological wrath is poured out upon the unbelieving earth dwellers who worship the Beast. The fact that Jesus says that the cosmic sign comes immediately after the tribulation of those days, which in context is the great tribulation, lets us know that God's wrath is not being poured out during the great tribulation. This is also what John sees in detail when he was taken in spirit into the future to witness the events surrounding the second parousia of Christ. John identifies the cosmic sign taking place after the opening of the sixth seal. This means that the wrath of God is not being poured out during the seals as I once thought. God's wrath comes after the unprecedented persecution of the church and Israel, not before or during it.

Paul clearly identifies two periods of tribulation at the end of the age. First is the present persecution of the Church and Israel that will reach an unprecedented level in scope and severity right prior to Christ's return to gather His own unto Himself and the second is the unmixed wrath of God poured out upon our persecutors after those of us who are alive and remain are rescued.

2Th 1:6  Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
2Th 1:7  And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8  In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th 1:9  Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
2Th 1:10  When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

Whether or not you heed the words of the Holy Scriptures, if you live long enough you will cast aside the pre-trib system as a misguided falsehood when you see the Temple rebuilt in Jerusalem and the daily sacrifice and oblation taking place. Or if you recognize Elijah who must come before the day of the Lord. Or if you understand and see the covenant confirmed with many for seven years. However, if you are oblivious to all these, you no doubt will be awakened when the Beast stands in the Temple demanding to be worshipped as God (the abomination of desolation) and all the world is required to take his mark. You will have a choice then, do you save yourself from the sword (decapitation) or starvation (cannot buy or sell) or do you remain faithful to Christ unto death. That is a test that will really show what you have, whether you are only a professor or are indeed a possessor of the salvation only found in the Lord Jesus Christ.

Rev 14:9  And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
Rev 14:10  The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
Rev 14:11  And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Rev 12:11  And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

We are not appointed unto God's wrath in the day of the Lord that is true (1Thes 5:9, 2-3), however, there is no great escape from the violent persecution to come upon the last generation of the church.

Are you ready to lay down your life for Christ or are you one of these prosperity gospel preachers who preach glory without suffering. "All they that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution." (the Apostle Paul to Timothy).

If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema Maranatha. (1Co 16:22)

By the way, there is only one future parousia of the Lord Jesus Christ. (Parousia means arrival and continuing presence)

You have got us mixed up, Because It's you who calls God a liar, You need to get your facts right. You are quoting scriptures that don't mean the Church. There is no mention of the Church after Rev 3.  In Rev 4, Jesus tells John what will happen AFTER the Church is in heaven.

 

As I have told you, Once you stopped believing the Bible, YOU Started believing your own opinions.

[iamlamad]

4 hours ago, Steve Conley said:

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

Alan, it appears that you are not a classic pre-tribber. Classic pre-tribbers fail to see that God's wrath doesn't begin until after the sixth seal. In fact, it doesn't begin until the first trumpet judgement. I commend you for noticing that truth. However, you have one great glaring problem, you have God pouring out His wrath upon His faithful martyrs, the tribulation saints as you call them. God forbid, let it not be so. That is preposterous, God's wrath is never focused upon His own. His action has always been to remove His own before His wrath is poured out. Jesus gave us two great examples of that very thing in Noah and Lot.

Luk 17:26  And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
Luk 17:27  They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.
Luk 17:28  Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
Luk 17:29  But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
Luk 17:30  Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

The day God's wrath begins is the day of our rescue.

Rev 3:10  Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

We are kept from the hour of temptation, that is, removed from the sphere of God's wrath. The hour of temptation, since it is focussed upon the earth dwellers, is God's day of the Lord wrath. The earth dwellers is a technical term referring to the unbelieving who worship the Beast and persecute the saints. It is they who will be caught by surprise at Christ's revelation, not us.

1Th 5:4  But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

Praise Jesus Christ

Praise the Lord! In this we are agreed: Classical pretrib has no idea where "the trib" begins. How can they know if they are pretrib without knowing where the trib begins?   Then the imagine the rapture is at Rev. 4:1 when John is called up. They are mistaken there too. 

Well, they ARE correct: the rapture will be pretrib and prewrath - but they have not figured out how to prove it by scripture. 

We are again agreed: God's wrath begins at the 6th seal and continues on through all the chapters to chapter 16 - all the way through the week.  We could argue whether His wrath begins at the earthquake at the 6th seal or at the first trumpet judgment. There will probably be only 10 days between the 6th seal and the 7th. I am guessing that will be the ten days of Awe. We both agree the first trumpet will surely  come with His wrath. 

you have God pouring out His wrath upon His faithful martyrs, the tribulation saints as you call them  It is neither our fault or God's fault!  It is His plan that all believers are ready for Jesus pretrib coming so they escape all these things. But you are right, many will be left behind and will certainly face His wrath. His wrath will not be directed at them personally, but if they live where the fresh water is poisoned it will certainly affect them. If they live in a city that is nuked, again it will affect them.  Sorry, but it IS so. For those left behind, they will have to face both God's wrath and Satan's wrath. God has already said that the Beast will overcome the saints. God is not going to change His mind on that. 

However, some may make it through. Again, it will not be God's fault! He has made a way of escape. Will it be His fault if people ignore His way?  There are many on these threads that scoff at Luke 21:36. Therefore your thinking is not scriptural. AFter all, but Daniel and John tell us that the Beast will overcome the saints. This will include Jews and Gentiles that love God. 

Therefore, make no mistake: there WILL BE those that love God and more that Love Jesus Christ, that will have to face the Beast. It is scripture. 

[iamlamad]

5 hours ago, Steve Conley said:

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

Alan, I misjudged you. I thought you might be interested in truth, but it appears that you are blind to your own eisegesis and circular reasoning. I was blind once also, but God had mercy upon me and allowed me to see that the foundation of the pre-trib system is made up of misunderstandings, assumptions, inferences, and the desperate wresting of Scriptural texts. It all began when I wanted a better, more thorough, understanding of the day of the Lord. It was then that God removed the blinders created by pretribulational dispensationalism.

The Lord confronted me with an unambiguous statement of the prophet Joel, one that Peter quoted on the day of Pentecost. "The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come."(Joel 2:31) Joel says that a notable cosmic sign would appear prior to the commencement of the day of the Lord. The day of the Lord is when Christ's eschatological wrath is poured out upon the unbelieving earth dwellers who worship the Beast. The fact that Jesus says that the cosmic sign comes immediately after the tribulation of those days, which in context is the great tribulation, lets us know that God's wrath is not being poured out during the great tribulation. This is also what John sees in detail when he was taken in spirit into the future to witness the events surrounding the second parousia of Christ. John identifies the cosmic sign taking place after the opening of the sixth seal. This means that the wrath of God is not being poured out during the seals as I once thought. God's wrath comes after the unprecedented persecution of the church and Israel, not before or during it.

Paul clearly identifies two periods of tribulation at the end of the age. First is the present persecution of the Church and Israel that will reach an unprecedented level in scope and severity right prior to Christ's return to gather His own unto Himself and the second is the unmixed wrath of God poured out upon our persecutors after those of us who are alive and remain are rescued.

2Th 1:6  Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
2Th 1:7  And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8  In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th 1:9  Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
2Th 1:10  When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

Whether or not you heed the words of the Holy Scriptures, if you live long enough you will cast aside the pre-trib system as a misguided falsehood when you see the Temple rebuilt in Jerusalem and the daily sacrifice and oblation taking place. Or if you recognize Elijah who must come before the day of the Lord. Or if you understand and see the covenant confirmed with many for seven years. However, if you are oblivious to all these, you no doubt will be awakened when the Beast stands in the Temple demanding to be worshipped as God (the abomination of desolation) and all the world is required to take his mark. You will have a choice then, do you save yourself from the sword (decapitation) or starvation (cannot buy or sell) or do you remain faithful to Christ unto death. That is a test that will really show what you have, whether you are only a professor or are indeed a possessor of the salvation only found in the Lord Jesus Christ.

Rev 14:9  And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
Rev 14:10  The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
Rev 14:11  And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Rev 12:11  And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

We are not appointed unto God's wrath in the day of the Lord that is true (1Thes 5:9, 2-3), however, there is no great escape from the violent persecution to come upon the last generation of the church.

Are you ready to lay down your life for Christ or are you one of these prosperity gospel preachers who preach glory without suffering. "All they that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution." (the Apostle Paul to Timothy).

If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema Maranatha. (1Co 16:22)

By the way, there is only one future parousia of the Lord Jesus Christ. (Parousia means arrival and continuing presence)

I am not Alan, but I will answer. 

"I thought you might be interested in truth"   I am reminded of our English Literature class and the "two kinds of truth." If I remember, it was Francis Bacon who penned this phrase.  It this case, there certainly is your perceived truth, but sorry, it is not REAL truth, for what you write does not agree with what John or other Bible writers wrote. (it may be what you THINK they wrote.) 

There should be no doubt as to the start of the Day of the Lord (but on these threads there is) because John made it very clear that God's wrath will start in the earthquake at the 6th seal.  End of discussion. It is written.  

Indeed, the sun WILL turn into darkness before THAT DAY. In fact, we have had some spectacular eclipses of the sun recently that turned the sun dark. And we have had some amazing eclipses of the moon recently that turned the moon blood red.  How can anyone know the moon appears red? It is because they SEE IT. 

Matthew 24:²⁹ Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

WHEN will this happen? Just before His coming.  When in Revelation will that be? His coming is shown in Rev. 19. However, at the 5th vial, God plunges the seat of the Beast (no one knows how far this darkness will cover) into darkness. 

Jesus gives us another hint:

Matthew 24:27  For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

This verse does not say it will be dark, but lightning would be far more visible in the darkness. I think it hints of darkness. We know God can turn out the sunlight if He chooses: it got dark when Jesus was hanging on the cross. 

 

The question is, is a darkened moon the same as a blood moon? A bigger question is, what is the intent of the Author? I submit that "the sun and moon darkened speaks of darkness. And in darkness, the ONLY way to see the moon is if it is reflecting Sunlight. I therefore submit that both the sun and moon will be invisible. When Mount Saint Helens blew her top off,  points north and east became black as night - in the middle of the day! The street lights came on.  

 

A bigger question yet, what is the timing of the Joel two prophecy of the moon turning blood red? Is is possible It can be "after the tribulation of those days?" Again I submit, that is impossible without a complete rewrite of Revelation. Why? Because such a theory will not fit the way Revelation is written! 

 

Prewrathers say the days of GT will then be during the seals. Again I say that is impossible and not at all the intent of the Author.  Why? Because John has made it clear, the context of the first seal was around 32 AD, right after Jesus ascended. Don't take my word for it, go and Read Revelation chapter 5 again.

 

Therefore, TIMING ALONE proves that these two signs cannot be one and the same.  Finish later

[iamlamad]

5 hours ago, Alan Hales said:

You have got us mixed up, Because It's you who calls God a liar, You need to get your facts right. You are quoting scriptures that don't mean the Church. There is no mention of the Church after Rev 3.  In Rev 4, Jesus tells John what will happen AFTER the Church is in heaven.

 

As I have told you, Once you stopped believing the Bible, YOU Started believing your own opinions.

Alan, what you wrote is not really true either. For example, the 5th seal is the martyrs of the church age. They are told that judgment cannot come until the very last church age martyr has been killed. God knows the final number. In short, they are told they must wait for the rapture that will end the church age - THEN judgment can come. The church age is the age or grace: judgment must wait until after grace.  The very next event John mentions is the 6th seal, where judgment begins. Therefore the church has been waiting between the 5th and 6th seals since the beginning.  

When John wrote, "after these things" he did NOT write, "after the church age" as many suppose. He only uses this phrase or a similar one as a transitional phrase for a new part of the vision. 

[iamlamad]

7 hours ago, Steve Conley said:

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

...

The fact that Jesus says that the cosmic sign comes immediately after the tribulation of those days, which in context is the great tribulation, lets us know that God's wrath is not being poured out during the great tribulation. This is also what John sees in detail when he was taken in spirit into the future to witness the events surrounding the second parousia of Christ. John identifies the cosmic sign taking place after the opening of the sixth seal. This means that the wrath of God is not being poured out during the seals as I once thought. God's wrath comes after the unprecedented persecution of the church and Israel, not before or during it.

Paul clearly identifies two periods of tribulation at the end of the age. First is the present persecution of the Church and Israel that will reach an unprecedented level in scope and severity right prior to Christ's return to gather His own unto Himself and the second is the unmixed wrath of God poured out upon our persecutors after those of us who are alive and remain are rescued.

2Th 1:6  Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
2Th 1:7  And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8  In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th 1:9  Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
2Th 1:10  When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

Whether or not you heed the words of the Holy Scriptures, if you live long enough you will cast aside the pre-trib system as a misguided falsehood when you see the Temple rebuilt in Jerusalem and the daily sacrifice and oblation taking place. Or if you recognize Elijah who must come before the day of the Lord. Or if you understand and see the covenant confirmed with many for seven years. However, if you are oblivious to all these, you no doubt will be awakened when the Beast stands in the Temple demanding to be worshipped as God (the abomination of desolation) and all the world is required to take his mark. You will have a choice then, do you save yourself from the sword (decapitation) or starvation (cannot buy or sell) or do you remain faithful to Christ unto death. That is a test that will really show what you have, whether you are only a professor or are indeed a possessor of the salvation only found in the Lord Jesus Christ.

Rev 14:9  And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
Rev 14:10  The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
Rev 14:11  And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Rev 12:11  And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

We are not appointed unto God's wrath in the day of the Lord that is true (1Thes 5:9, 2-3), however, there is no great escape from the violent persecution to come upon the last generation of the church.

Are you ready to lay down your life for Christ or are you one of these prosperity gospel preachers who preach glory without suffering. "All they that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution." (the Apostle Paul to Timothy).

If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema Maranatha. (1Co 16:22)

By the way, there is only one future parousia of the Lord Jesus Christ. (Parousia means arrival and continuing presence)

Let's stick with what is written, not imagination. What is written is that God's wrath begins at the 6th seal. If it begins here, where does it end? It is also written that the vials are filled with His wrath. Therefore John is telling us that God's wrath is in the trumpet judgments (first half of the week) and in the vials (second half of the week). Therefore God's wrath will continue from the 6th seal in chapter 6 through chapters 8 and 9, the trumpet judgments, and on through chapter 16 where the vials are poured out. It is without doubt that when Jesus returns to the battle of Armageddon He has wrath.  It is probable then that God's wrath will be appeased after the parable of the tares plays out, and then after the sheep and goat judgment. We don't know for sure where God's wrath ends because John does not tell us. Always remember, His wrath and THE DAY are almost synonymous terms. When THE DAY comes, His wrath comes. 

Where then in Revelation would we find Satan's wrath? He is cast down at the midpoint of the week, when Adam's lease runs out and the kingdoms of the world are given to Jesus Christ.  Therefore, Satan's wrath begins at the midpoint and continues on through the last half of the week, which is the exact same time God's wrath is being poured out. Therefore no one can separate God's wrath from Satan's wrath, for they are concurrent.

Where in Revelation will be the days of great tribulation (GT) that Jesus spoke of? They will be in the second half of the week, so in Revelation from chapter 12 on to chapter 16.  What will CAUSE those days to be the days of GT that Jesus spoke of? It will be the image and the mark. The Beast and his armies will force all to worship this idol and receive the mark, or lose their head. Also during the last half of the week, the Two witnesses will cause the rain to stop. Soon then there will be little fresh water, and when the vials are poured out, and the fresh water turned to blood, the ONLY drinkable water will be in the stores: and without the mark, no one can buy it. Therefore GREAT pressure will be put on people trying to avoid being caught by the Beast or his armies, trying to find water to drink and food to eat. Millions will be caught and beheaded. But where in Revelation will the beheading start? 

God will send angels to warn people to refuse the mark, and we find that in chapter 14. Finally in chapter 15 we see the beheaded people arriving in heaven. Therefore the days of GT Jesus spoke of will reach their peak sometime after the warning in chapter 14.  Therefore the days of GT Jesus spoke of will be in chapters 15 and 16.  How then can ANYONE imagine that the "tribulation" will be in the seals? It is only imagination. 

For the readers: all this comes from people not recognizing that the signs in the sun and moon will be seen TWICE, first as the sign for the DAY with the moon appearing red. We find this in Joel 2 and at the 6th seal. Then the sign will be seen again over 7 years later, as the sign for His coming. But this time neither the sun nor the moon will be seen: it will be darkness.  We find this sign in Joel 3 and in Matthew 24. 

 

[Alan Hales]

10 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Alan, what you wrote is not really true either. For example, the 5th seal is the martyrs of the church age. They are told that judgment cannot come until the very last church age martyr has been killed. God knows the final number. In short, they are told they must wait for the rapture that will end the church age - THEN judgment can come. The church age is the age or grace: judgment must wait until after grace.  The very next event John mentions is the 6th seal, where judgment begins. Therefore the church has been waiting between the 5th and 6th seals since the beginning.  

When John wrote, "after these things" he did NOT write, "after the church age" as many suppose. He only uses this phrase or a similar one as a transitional phrase for a new part of the vision. 

The Church isn't in the book of revelation after the 3rd chapter, You are getting the Jews and the people who get saved during the great tribulation period, Mixed up with the Church. Both Jesus, and Paul, [Who was inspired by Jesus], Said we WON'T go through the tribulation.

As for, "After these things", Jesus had just finished speaking to the Church, Rev 3, Then in Rev 4, Jesus said the things that must be After,

After what??, After the Church is gone to heaven. The Bible makes it clear enough that the Church has to go before the man of sin, [The antichrist] can come.   You can tribulate if you want to, But I will believe the Bible.

[iamlamad]

7 hours ago, Alan Hales said:

The Church isn't in the book of revelation after the 3rd chapter, You are getting the Jews and the people who get saved during the great tribulation period, Mixed up with the Church. Both Jesus, and Paul, [Who was inspired by Jesus], Said we WON'T go through the tribulation.

As for, "After these things", Jesus had just finished speaking to the Church, Rev 3, Then in Rev 4, Jesus said the things that must be After,

After what??, After the Church is gone to heaven. The Bible makes it clear enough that the Church has to go before the man of sin, [The antichrist] can come.   You can tribulate if you want to, But I will believe the Bible.

It is very simple: I have it right and you have it wrong. It is your preconceptions that come from your past, NOT what you read. Your preconceptions turn into imaginations. Let's just follow THE BOOK! Can we?

Let's start here: WHERE in Revelation does "the tribulation period" begin? 

I agree the church won't go through it, but WHERE does it begin? And where is the rapture that comes before it begins? 

"After the church is gone to heaven?" That is your imagination! It is NOT what is written!

Next, show us in Revelation WHERE the Antichrist comes. Again, the rapture must come before that. 

Now it is your turn. Use scripture.

[Alan Hales]

3 hours ago, iamlamad said:

It is very simple: I have it right and you have it wrong. It is your preconceptions that come from your past, NOT what you read. Your preconceptions turn into imaginations. Let's just follow THE BOOK! Can we?

Let's start here: WHERE in Revelation does "the tribulation period" begin? 

I agree the church won't go through it, but WHERE does it begin? And where is the rapture that comes before it begins? 

"After the church is gone to heaven?" That is your imagination! It is NOT what is written!

Next, show us in Revelation WHERE the Antichrist comes. Again, the rapture must come before that. 

Now it is your turn. Use scripture.

You aren't right, Whatever makes you think you are??. No one can take you serious because you contradict your self. You said we won't go through the tribulation, Then you  say,

"After the church is gone to heaven?" That is your imagination! It is NOT what is written!" [End quote].

Both Jesus and Paul said we won't go through the tribulation.

 1 Thess 4: 13--18  is the rapture, Then Chapter 2  mentions the tribulation, which is the wrath of the devil, Rev 12: 12,

And the wrath of God, Rev 15: 7. Rev 16: 1-2, And 1 Thess 5: 9 says we aren't appointed unto wrath, but to be delivered. As Jesus says in Lk 21: 36.

2 Thess 2: 1--7 says the Church goes before the man of sin can come.

Jesus is coming for a glorious Church, pure holy and doing mighty miracles. Eph 5: 27. 1 Jn 3: 2 says when Jesus comes, We will be just like Him.

So, If the devil couldn't handle ONE Jesus, How can he deal with millions who are just like Jesus??, He can't, that's why we have to go before he can come. Lk 10: 17--20 Jesus said we have power  and authority over all demons, including the devil, Because he is no match for the risen Christ in us.

 

You can't show me where the Bible says the Church is still here when the man of sin comes, Because there are no scriptures.

So it's you who is wrong.

[iamlamad]

2 hours ago, Alan Hales said:

You aren't right, Whatever makes you think you are??. No one can take you serious because you contradict your self. You said we won't go through the tribulation, Then you  say,

YOU said "After the church is gone to heaven" would be at Rev. 4:1 - as if that is where the church GOES to heaven. Sorry, but that is JOHN called up to heaven and that happened around 95 AD - too early for a rapture, wouldn't you say?  So you IMAGINE by Rev. 4:2 the church is gone! How funny!  Do you really know the timing is of 4:2? You have to read both chapter 4 and 5 to get the entire picture, but the timing is NOT 95 AD when John was called up. He was seeing a VISION. Always remember, a vision can be of the past, of the present or of the future, or all three together.  I will get you started on the right foot:

John is looking into the throne room of the PAST. How long past? It was the time just before Jesus rose from the dead. I guess around 32 AD. 

Therefore, to imagine this is after the church age is simply not understanding the intent of the Author here.  What makes me think I am right? It is simple: Jesus taught me. 

Next, I did NOT contradict myself. I was quoting YOU. 

I will be waiting for your answers to the questions. Good luck. 

Oh, I will tell you what Jesus told me: "until you can answer these questions correctly you will never understand this part of John's vision. "

Why would Jesus say that? Because understanding chapters 4 & 5 is critical to understanding the book. Get this wrong and most of your theory on Revelation will be wrong. 

I do hope you will attempt to answer the three questions. 

 

The church is NOT HERE when the man of sin is revealed! Have you not understood 2 Thes. 2? There Paul shows us that the departing (of the church) must come FIRST, and then the man of sin will be revealed.

Please tell me you don't believe seal 1 is the Antichrist!

 

I think we agree on many things, but you are a little off in your chronology and timing in Revelation.

Edited September 20, 2018 by iamlamad

[Alan Hales]

10 hours ago, iamlamad said:

YOU said "After the church is gone to heaven" would be at Rev. 4:1 - as if that is where the church GOES to heaven. Sorry, but that is JOHN called up to heaven and that happened around 95 AD - too early for a rapture, wouldn't you say?  So you IMAGINE by Rev. 4:2 the church is gone! How funny!  Do you really know the timing is of 4:2? You have to read both chapter 4 and 5 to get the entire picture, but the timing is NOT 95 AD when John was called up. He was seeing a VISION. Always remember, a vision can be of the past, of the present or of the future, or all three together.  I will get you started on the right foot:

John is looking into the throne room of the PAST. How long past? It was the time just before Jesus rose from the dead. I guess around 32 AD. 

Therefore, to imagine this is after the church age is simply not understanding the intent of the Author here.  What makes me think I am right? It is simple: Jesus taught me. 

Next, I did NOT contradict myself. I was quoting YOU. 

I will be waiting for your answers to the questions. Good luck. 

Oh, I will tell you what Jesus told me: "until you can answer these questions correctly you will never understand this part of John's vision. "

Why would Jesus say that? Because understanding chapters 4 & 5 is critical to understanding the book. Get this wrong and most of your theory on Revelation will be wrong. 

I do hope you will attempt to answer the three questions. 

 

The church is NOT HERE when the man of sin is revealed! Have you not understood 2 Thes. 2? There Paul shows us that the departing (of the church) must come FIRST, and then the man of sin will be revealed.

Please tell me you don't believe seal 1 is the Antichrist!

 

I think we agree on many things, but you are a little off in your chronology and timing in Revelation.

Your problem is, You go by your own opinions, Instead of what the Bible says. I have given you Biblical proof that the Church goes to heaven before the tribulation starts.

[1] You have miss-understood Rev 4, Because it's not saying that rapture has already happened, It's a revelation of what happens AFTER the rapture.

[2] John's revelation wasn't looking into PAST.

[3]You DID contradict your self.

[4]I do believe the 1st seal is AFTER the Church is in heaven.