The "Day of the Lord: Where in Revelation does it begin?

[iamlamad]

Some people believe the Day of the Lord will begin at the 6th seal where it is written, "the great day of His wrath is come."  Others think this is just an announcement and the real Day will begin with the 7th seal.

I believe the Day MUST start in one of these two places. Please give which of these two points (6th seal or 7th seal) you believe is the true START of the Day of the Lord, and your argument as to why.

(Note, this will not include any arguments that the Day of the Lord will be the last event of the 70th week, or the theory that the Day will come with His coming to Armageddon. I already know these two theories are bogus.)

[Diaste]

6th seal, 7th trump.

[missmuffet]

First the rapture of the Church. Then the 7 year tribulation and towards the end of the 7 year tribulation Christ will come back to earth. I don't know a timeline. In God's perfect timing.

[iamlamad]

4 hours ago, Diaste said:

6th seal, 7th trump.

This is impossible.

[iamlamad]

2 hours ago, missmuffet said:

First the rapture of the Church. Then the 7 year tribulation and towards the end of the 7 year tribulation Christ will come back to earth. I don't know a timeline. In God's perfect timing.

So you are saying Christ comes WITH the Day of the Lord: it starts when He comes? Would that be His Rev. 19 coming to Armageddon?

[WilliamL]

6th Seal. Same pattern as in Moses' and David's time. An examination of the term parousia in the New Testament makes this unmistakable. From my blog https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/2211-the-parousia-of-the-son-of-man/

Matthew 24:3 : …the disciples came to [Jesus] privately, saying…“what will be the sign of Your parousia, and of the end of the age?” ... 27 “For just as the lightning comes forth from the east and shines unto the west, so also will be the parousia of the Son of Man.

1 Thessalonians 2:19 For what is our hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing? Is it not even you in front of our Lord Jesus Christ at His parousia?

3:13 …may [Jesus] establish your hearts blameless in holiness before our God and Father at the parousia of our Lord Jesus Christ with all His saints.

4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring together with Him those who sleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we the ones living, the ones remaining until the parousia of the Lord may by no means precede those who are asleep [dead]. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout of command with the voice of an archangel, and with a trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Thereafter we the ones living, the ones remaining shall be seized/caught up/raptured together with them in clouds, unto a meeting of the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

5:23 …may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the parousia of our Lord Jesus Christ.

In the above passages, Paul tells us that the resurrection of the dead, and the rapture/catching up into the clouds of all the saints in Christ, will take place at His parousia.

2 Thessalonians 2:1 Now brethren, concerning the parousia of the Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by word or by letter, as if through us, as though the Day of Christ [alt., of the Lord] had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the apostasia comes first, and the Man of Sin [alt., Lawlessness] is revealed, the Son of Perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called a god or that is worshiped, so that he sits as a god in the sanctuary/holy place of God, exhibiting himself that he is a god. … 8 … this Lawless One will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the Spirit of His mouth, and destroy with the brightness of His parousia.

The apostle Peter also prophesied about the parousia of the Lord:

2 Peter 3:3 …scoffers will come in the Last Days, walking according to their own lusts, 4 and saying, “Where is the promise of His parousia? … 10 But the Day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a rushing noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat… 11 Therefore…what manner of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12 looking for and hastening the parousia of the Day of God…?

The parousia is the day of the Lord, when the dead rise at the return of Christ in the clouds to take up his elect, right after the great heavenly and earthly cataclysms at the 6th Seal = Matt. 24:29-31.

Edited July 6, 2020 by WilliamL

[Diaste]

13 hours ago, iamlamad said:

This is impossible.

"And they said to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of the One seated on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb. For the great day of Their wrath has come, and who is able to withstand it?”" - 6th Seal

"The nations were enraged and your wrath has come" - 7th Trump

"Then the angel took the censer, filled it with fire from the altar, and hurled it to the earth; and there were peals of thunder, and rumblings, and flashes of lightning, and an earthquake." -7th Seal

"Then the temple of God in heaven was opened, and the ark of His covenant appeared in His temple. And there were flashes of lightning, and rumblings, and peals of thunder, and an earthquake, and a great hailstorm." - 7th Trump

A clear alignment. Puzzle pieces that fit. Wrath is said to come at both the 6th seal and the 7th Trump. The sixth seal is the sign of Jesus return and the impending wrath, The seventh trump is the start of that wrath and is also the last trump from 1 Cor 15:52,

"Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed."

Since the 7th trump is the only last trump that we know of, the last in a series of trumps that are directly related to the end of the age, both the 7th trump of Revelation and the last trump of 1 Cor 15 are the same. As improbable as you think it to be it's only impossible if one refuses to let the scripture speak.

[Revelation Man]

21 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Some people believe the Day of the Lord will begin at the 6th seal where it is written, "the great day of His wrath is come."  Others think this is just an announcement and the real Day will begin with the 7th seal.

I believe the Day MUST start in one of these two places. Please give which of these two points (6th seal or 7th seal) you believe is the true START of the Day of the Lord, and your argument as to why.

(Note, this will not include any arguments that the Day of the Lord will be the last event of the 70th week, or the theory that the Day will come with His coming to Armageddon. I already know these two theories are bogus.)

7th Seal opens the Judgment book, the First Judgment is the First Four Trumps which all begin the Day of the Lord, they are all the same event. 1st Trump is the fire coming in of the asteroid which I think is the Apophis space rock heading our way on April 13, 2029. The Mountain is the the next Trump, but its the impact that comes after the fire, same event. The next Trump is the star that hits, well its just the Mountain/Rock shown coming in on fire this time because it poisons the waters, so the same rock is shown as producing Nuclear Fallout here, or coming in hot. 

Trump #4 is the after affects of the blast/impact, its the Sun and Moon going dark. So, this begins the Day of the Lord. Seals 1-6 is just Prophetic uttering's by Jesus. We know that because the first 5 are about the Anti-Christ and the 6th are about the First Four Trump events, it even shows us that with the Sun and Moon diminishing its light. 

[Revelation Man]

6 hours ago, SONshine said:

In a nutshell, the "Lord's Day" is the day Christ returns to earth as King of kings.(7th Trump)

 

John was taken there in Revelation 1:10.

Revelation 1:10-11 King James Version (KJV)

¹⁰ I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

Christ’s return at the 7th trump (THE LORD’S DAY) will not take place until Satan first comes to earth claiming to be Christ.  

Matthew 24:15 King James Version (KJV)

¹⁵ When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

2 Thessalonians 2:1-4 King James Version (KJV)

2 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

² That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

³ Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

⁴ Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

The DOTL lasts 3.5 years, any student of the bible should know this via study. 

The Wrath of God can be said to have COME at the 7th Trump without STARTING at the 7th Trump. 

So, the National Championship Football game has come.............then in the Fourth quarter you can still announce the National Championship has come, even though it is in the Fourth Quarter. These are simple things that somehow get misconstrued. 

Edited July 7, 2020 by Revelation Man

[iamlamad]

2 hours ago, Diaste said:

"And they said to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of the One seated on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb. For the great day of Their wrath has come, and who is able to withstand it?”" - 6th Seal

"The nations were enraged and your wrath has come" - 7th Trump

"Then the angel took the censer, filled it with fire from the altar, and hurled it to the earth; and there were peals of thunder, and rumblings, and flashes of lightning, and an earthquake." -7th Seal

"Then the temple of God in heaven was opened, and the ark of His covenant appeared in His temple. And there were flashes of lightning, and rumblings, and peals of thunder, and an earthquake, and a great hailstorm." - 7th Trump

A clear alignment. Puzzle pieces that fit. Wrath is said to come at both the 6th seal and the 7th Trump. The sixth seal is the sign of Jesus return and the impending wrath, The seventh trump is the start of that wrath and is also the last trump from 1 Cor 15:52,

"Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed."

Since the 7th trump is the only last trump that we know of, the last in a series of trumps that are directly related to the end of the age, both the 7th trump of Revelation and the last trump of 1 Cor 15 are the same. As improbable as you think it to be it's only impossible if one refuses to let the scripture speak.

6th seal - 7th trump. No, they cannot be together. The seals are sealing the book that contains the trumpets. There are two other possibilities: God gets angry and gets over it quickly, and nothing happens. Then gets angry again and stuff happens. I don't believe this scenario. The other possibility: God the Father gets angry and the Day of His wrath begins: 6th seal - and he is STILL angry at the 7th trumpet because after all the trumpet judgments people refuse to repent. See how simply this can be solved?

Wrath is said to come at both the 6th seal and the 7th Trump. No. It appears that way in English. I will remind you again what Strong's tells us of he Aorist tense verbs:

"Is characterized by its emphasis on punctiliar action; that is, the concept of the verb is considered
without regard for past, present, or future time. There is no direct or clear English equivalent for
this tense, though it is generally rendered as a simple past tense in most translations."

John is just acknowledging that wrath exists at the 7th trumpet. Of course it does, because it comes INSIDE the Day of His wrath. Or, God got angry, then got over it quickly, then got angry again. I know someone that believes that.

is also the last trump from 1 Cor 15:52,  Some people believe this. I don't. One is the trump of God, the other is sounded by an angel. One is the last trump of one series, the other is the last trump of another series. On Paul's last trump the rapture takes place. On the other last trump or 7th trump the kingdoms of the world are taken from Satan and given to Jesus. This means TWO DIFFERENT "last trumps," one actually called that in scripture, for two different purposes and coming at two different times. Just because one finds similar words does not mean two verses fit together. We must consider TIME, and the the context of each verse. An example: someone saw "ten" virgins, and "ten" kings so they have to be the same thing. How silly is that?

What you are missing: any kind of knowledge of passing time in Revelation. the 6th seal is before any part of the 70th week. the 7th trumpet is the midpoint of the week. Just because of TIME, they cannot possibly be the same event. How is anyone (even God) going to read and bring to pass something written inside the scroll or book before all the seals are opened: it is impossible. You and I will continue to disagree.