Does Paul tells us WHEN the rapture will come?

[iamlamad]

What does Paul really teach about the rapture? Does he gives us ANY timing information?

1 The. 4 & 5

¹⁶ For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

¹⁷ Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

¹⁸ Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.

² For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

I am sure we all can read these verses, and most understand that some day God is going to catch up all who are alive and in Christ, and I must add, IN FELLOWSHIP with Him. (I don’t think a born again person out of fellowship with Him will be caught up: that would be people with sin on their conscience that is unconfessed. Some may disagree.)

Notice 5:1: “times” and “seasons.” Paul makes it clear he has already told them the times and seasons of the rapture in relation to the Day of the Lord, so here he wrote, “you have no need that I write…”. Why mention the Day of the Lord just 3 verses after the classic rapture verse? It is because the Day of the Lord has a close association with the rapture. We will see that the rapture will be the trigger for the start of the Day of the Lord.

³ For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

 Paul is giving us timing information here, but not direct. He is telling us that the rapture or catching up will be when people are saying “peace and safety.” Are people of the world thinking “peace” today? I think most are. Are most people in the world feeling safe today? Maybe not so much right now with the  Cornoavirus. But concerning war, I think most are feeling safe from war at the present time. Question: will people be feeling “peace and safety” after the entire 70^th week has passed? World population will be cut DRASTICALLY. The entire world may be in darkness. I think it is fair to say, most will be scared nearly to death, wondering what is coming next.  In my mind, “peace and safety” are FAR more likely to be thought and spoken today than after the days of great tribulation are over. Just my opinion.

 ⁴ But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

⁵ Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

Why would Paul associate the rapture or catching up of the church with The day of the Lord which will come as a thief ? This is his second reference to this. Again, it is because there is a very close association between the two.

⁸ But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.

⁹ For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

¹⁰ Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

¹¹ Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.

Now Paul assures us that God is not setting any appointments for us with His wrath. Paul is associating “wrath” with the Day of His wrath or the Day of the Lord. These terms are interchangeable. If people are not appointed to wrath, then they are to “obtain salvation.” What is Paul’s meaning here?

 Remember, the theme of this passage is the rapture. It is very clear: Paul is showing us a paradigm: comparing those IN Christ with the sinner not in Christ. Either people have an appointment with His wrath, or they don’t. WE don’t. THEY do.

 Either people will get caught up (the rapture) (“obtain salvation”) and get to “live together with Him" (So shall we ever be with the Lord) or they get left behind to face wrath.  Notice in 4:18 we are to spread comfort, and in 5:11. Both are the result of knowing about the rapture.  It is VERY clear Paul is still talking about the rapture, but is giving us timing information.

³ For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

 What is this “sudden destruction” That will come upon all those left behind? Note that the “peace and safety” time of the rapture is the very same time as the "sudden destruction." WE get caught up, THEY get sudden destruction.

 Notice what happened when God resurrected the elders of the Old Covenant.

 Matthew 27:

⁵¹ And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;

⁵² And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

What is happening here?  These are the elders of the Old Testament: some, like Adam, would have been dead for many centuries! The particles that once made up their bodies  - most especially those from before the flood – could have been scattered for many miles, or be several miles deep. When God brings those particles together in an instant of time, these verses show us that this event caused a great earthquake. Here the earthquake came with Jesus died, God pulled their bodies together when Jesus died, the graves were opened when Jesus died, but they arose when Jesus arose. No one could be raised to a resurrection body before Jesus as He was the firstfruits. 

Note that when God raised the two witnesses, again there was an earthquake.  (I believe the two witnesses will be resurrected with all the Old Testament saints.) The earthquake came from all the Old Testament saints, not the two witnesses. Again people from before the flood will be resurrected. It will be a most terrible earthquake - as shown at the 7th vial. These verses show us a precedent: when the long dead are resurrected, it is going to cause an earthquake. 

I believe these verses give us proof that when God raises the dead in Christ (bodies buried around the world) that it is going to cause a great, worldwide earthquake. I think this is going to be Paul’s “sudden destruction.” It will begin the moment those alive and in Christ are called up. They may just begin to feel the ground shake when they are caught up.

Where then in Revelation could we place the rapture? It must come just before the DAy of the Lord begins. That would be at the 6^th seal. It is no surprise then that the 5^th seal is for church age martyrs, and they are told they must wait for judgment for the very last martyr killed as they were – as church age martyrs.

What would cause a certain church age martyr to be the FINAL church age martyr? Of course, the rapture event that will END the church age, so no more church age martyrs. So in reality they were told that judgment is not going to start until after the rapture of the church ends the church age and brings in the Day of the Lord.

Now we can see why Paul wrote of the Day of the Lord just three verses after the rapture: it will be the rapture events that will TRIGGER the Day of the Lord and start God’s wrath on earth. WE have no appointments with His wrath so are caught up, but THEY get the sudden destruction start of His wrath.

Therefore I submit that Paul DOES give us timing for his rapture: just before wrath, and as the trigger for wrath. In Revelation that would be at or a moment before the 6th seal start of the Day of His wrath. 

Does this fit with a posttrib rapture? No. Plain and simple. 

[iamlamad]

Just now, iamlamad said:

What does Paul really teach about the rapture? Does he gives us ANY timing information?

1 The. 4 & 5

¹⁶ For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

¹⁷ Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

¹⁸ Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.

² For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

I am sure we all can read these verses, and most understand that some day God is going to catch up all who are alive and in Christ, and I must add, IN FELLOWSHIP with Him. (I don’t think a born again person out of fellowship with Him will be caught up: that would be people with sin on their conscience that is unconfessed. Some may disagree.)

Notice 5:1: “times” and “seasons.” Paul makes it clear he has already told them the times and seasons of the rapture in relation to the Day of the Lord, so here he wrote, “you have no need that I write…”. Why mention the Day of the Lord just 3 verses after the classic rapture verse? It is because the Day of the Lord has a close association with the rapture. We will see that the rapture will be the trigger for the start of the Day of the Lord.

³ For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

 Paul is giving us timing information here, but not directly. He is telling us that the rapture or catching up will be when people are saying “peace and safety.” Are people of the world thinking “peace” today? I think most are. Are most people in the world feeling safe today? Maybe not so much right now with the  Cornoavirus. But concerning war, I think most are feeling safe from war at the present time. Question: will people be feeling “peace and safety” after the entire 70^th week has passed? World population will be cut DRASTICALLY. The entire world may be in darkness. I think it is fair to say, most will be scared nearly to death, wondering what is coming next.  In my mind, “peace and safety” are FAR more likely to be thought and spoken today than after the days of great tribulation are over. Just my opinion.

 ⁴ But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

⁵ Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

Why would Paul associate the rapture or catching up of the church with The day of the Lord which will come as a thief ? This is his second reference to this. Again, it is because there is a very close association between the two.

⁸ But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.

⁹ For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

¹⁰ Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

¹¹ Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.

Now Paul assures us that God is not setting any appointments for us with His wrath. Paul is associating “wrath” with the Day of His wrath or the Day of the Lord. These terms are interchangeable. If people are not appointed to wrath, then they are to “obtain salvation.” What is Paul’s meaning here?

 Remember, the theme of this passage is the rapture. It is very clear: Paul is showing us a paradigm: comparing those IN Christ with the sinner not in Christ. Either people have an appointment with His wrath, or they don’t. WE don’t. THEY do.

 Either people will get caught up (the rapture) (“obtain salvation”) and get to “live together with Him" (So shall we ever be with the Lord) or they get left behind to face wrath.  Notice in 4:18 we are to spread comfort, and in 5:11 we are to spread comfort. Both are the result of knowing about the rapture.  It is VERY clear Paul is still talking about the rapture in chapter 5, but is giving us timing information.

³ For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

 What is this “sudden destruction” That will come upon all those left behind? Note that the “peace and safety” time of the rapture is the very same time as the "sudden destruction." WE get caught up, THEY get sudden destruction.

 Notice what happened when God resurrected the elders of the Old Covenant.

 Matthew 27:

⁵¹ And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;

⁵² And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

What is happening here?  These are the elders of the Old Testament: some, like Adam, would have been dead for many centuries! The particles that once made up their bodies  - most especially those from before the flood – could have been scattered for many miles, or be several miles deep. When God brings those particles together in an instant of time, these verses show us that this event caused a great earthquake. Here the earthquake came with Jesus died, God pulled their bodies together when Jesus died, the graves were opened when Jesus died, but they arose when Jesus arose. No one could be raised to a resurrection body before Jesus as He was the firstfruits. 

Note that when God raised the two witnesses, again there was an earthquake.  (I believe the two witnesses will be resurrected with all the Old Testament saints.) The earthquake came from all the Old Testament saints, not the two witnesses. Again people from before the flood will be resurrected. It will be a most terrible earthquake - as shown at the 7th vial. These verses show us a precedent: when the long dead are resurrected, it is going to cause an earthquake. 

I believe these verses give us proof that when God raises the dead in Christ (bodies buried around the world) that it is going to cause a great, worldwide earthquake. I think this is going to be Paul’s “sudden destruction.” It will begin the moment those alive and in Christ are called up. They may just begin to feel the ground shake when they are caught up.

Where then in Revelation could we place the rapture? It must come just before the DAy of the Lord begins. That would be at the 6^th seal. It is no surprise then that the 5^th seal is for church age martyrs, and they are told they must wait for judgment for the very last martyr killed as they were – as church age martyrs.

What would cause a certain church age martyr to be the FINAL church age martyr? Of course, the rapture event that will END the church age, so no more church age martyrs. So in reality they were told that judgment is not going to start until after the rapture of the church ends the church age and brings in the Day of the Lord.

Now we can see why Paul wrote of the Day of the Lord just three verses after the rapture: it will be the rapture events that will TRIGGER the Day of the Lord and start God’s wrath on earth. WE have no appointments with His wrath so are caught up, but THEY get the sudden destruction start of His wrath.

Therefore I submit that Paul DOES give us timing for his rapture: just before wrath, and as the trigger for wrath. In Revelation that would be at or a moment before the 6th seal start of the Day of His wrath. 

Does this fit with a posttrib rapture? No. Plain and simple. 

 

Edited April 3, 2020 by iamlamad

[Diaste]

4 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

What does Paul really teach about the rapture? Does he gives us ANY timing information?

1 The. 4 & 5

¹⁶ For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

¹⁷ Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

¹⁸ Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.

² For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

I am sure we all can read these verses, and most understand that some day God is going to catch up all who are alive and in Christ, and I must add, IN FELLOWSHIP with Him. (I don’t think a born again person out of fellowship with Him will be caught up: that would be people with sin on their conscience that is unconfessed. Some may disagree.)

Notice 5:1: “times” and “seasons.” Paul makes it clear he has already told them the times and seasons of the rapture in relation to the Day of the Lord, so here he wrote, “you have no need that I write…”. Why mention the Day of the Lord just 3 verses after the classic rapture verse? It is because the Day of the Lord has a close association with the rapture. We will see that the rapture will be the trigger for the start of the Day of the Lord.

³ For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

 Paul is giving us timing information here, but not direct. He is telling us that the rapture or catching up will be when people are saying “peace and safety.” Are people of the world thinking “peace” today? I think most are. Are most people in the world feeling safe today? Maybe not so much right now with the  Cornoavirus. But concerning war, I think most are feeling safe from war at the present time. Question: will people be feeling “peace and safety” after the entire 70^th week has passed? World population will be cut DRASTICALLY. The entire world may be in darkness. I think it is fair to say, most will be scared nearly to death, wondering what is coming next.  In my mind, “peace and safety” are FAR more likely to be thought and spoken today than after the days of great tribulation are over. Just my opinion.

 ⁴ But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

⁵ Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

Why would Paul associate the rapture or catching up of the church with The day of the Lord which will come as a thief ? This is his second reference to this. Again, it is because there is a very close association between the two.

⁸ But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.

⁹ For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

¹⁰ Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

¹¹ Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.

Now Paul assures us that God is not setting any appointments for us with His wrath. Paul is associating “wrath” with the Day of His wrath or the Day of the Lord. These terms are interchangeable. If people are not appointed to wrath, then they are to “obtain salvation.” What is Paul’s meaning here?

 Remember, the theme of this passage is the rapture. It is very clear: Paul is showing us a paradigm: comparing those IN Christ with the sinner not in Christ. Either people have an appointment with His wrath, or they don’t. WE don’t. THEY do.

 Either people will get caught up (the rapture) (“obtain salvation”) and get to “live together with Him" (So shall we ever be with the Lord) or they get left behind to face wrath.  Notice in 4:18 we are to spread comfort, and in 5:11. Both are the result of knowing about the rapture.  It is VERY clear Paul is still talking about the rapture, but is giving us timing information.

³ For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

 What is this “sudden destruction” That will come upon all those left behind? Note that the “peace and safety” time of the rapture is the very same time as the "sudden destruction." WE get caught up, THEY get sudden destruction.

 Notice what happened when God resurrected the elders of the Old Covenant.

 Matthew 27:

⁵¹ And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;

⁵² And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

What is happening here?  These are the elders of the Old Testament: some, like Adam, would have been dead for many centuries! The particles that once made up their bodies  - most especially those from before the flood – could have been scattered for many miles, or be several miles deep. When God brings those particles together in an instant of time, these verses show us that this event caused a great earthquake. Here the earthquake came with Jesus died, God pulled their bodies together when Jesus died, the graves were opened when Jesus died, but they arose when Jesus arose. No one could be raised to a resurrection body before Jesus as He was the firstfruits. 

Note that when God raised the two witnesses, again there was an earthquake.  (I believe the two witnesses will be resurrected with all the Old Testament saints.) The earthquake came from all the Old Testament saints, not the two witnesses. Again people from before the flood will be resurrected. It will be a most terrible earthquake - as shown at the 7th vial. These verses show us a precedent: when the long dead are resurrected, it is going to cause an earthquake. 

I believe these verses give us proof that when God raises the dead in Christ (bodies buried around the world) that it is going to cause a great, worldwide earthquake. I think this is going to be Paul’s “sudden destruction.” It will begin the moment those alive and in Christ are called up. They may just begin to feel the ground shake when they are caught up.

Where then in Revelation could we place the rapture? It must come just before the DAy of the Lord begins. That would be at the 6^th seal. It is no surprise then that the 5^th seal is for church age martyrs, and they are told they must wait for judgment for the very last martyr killed as they were – as church age martyrs.

What would cause a certain church age martyr to be the FINAL church age martyr? Of course, the rapture event that will END the church age, so no more church age martyrs. So in reality they were told that judgment is not going to start until after the rapture of the church ends the church age and brings in the Day of the Lord.

Now we can see why Paul wrote of the Day of the Lord just three verses after the rapture: it will be the rapture events that will TRIGGER the Day of the Lord and start God’s wrath on earth. WE have no appointments with His wrath so are caught up, but THEY get the sudden destruction start of His wrath.

Therefore I submit that Paul DOES give us timing for his rapture: just before wrath, and as the trigger for wrath. In Revelation that would be at or a moment before the 6th seal start of the Day of His wrath. 

Does this fit with a posttrib rapture? No. Plain and simple. 

Since great tribulation ends just sort of the end of the week, when wrath begins, then yes this is all 'post trib/pre wrath'. Great tribulation is a period between the A of D and the sign of the coming of the Son of man. Not before. Not after. Just this period. 

No doubt you will continue to ill define...well...everything.

[iamlamad]

18 hours ago, Diaste said:

Since great tribulation ends just sort of the end of the week, when wrath begins, then yes this is all 'post trib/pre wrath'. Great tribulation is a period between the A of D and the sign of the coming of the Son of man. Not before. Not after. Just this period. 

No doubt you will continue to ill define...well...everything.

You are still showing us you don't understand Revelation or the timing of God's wrath. You really think God would kill off 1/3 of earth's population (the 6th trumpet) and it NOT be in wrath? 

I would say that the days of great tribulation will be between the A of D (which event divides the week) and the time God pours out the vials to shorten those days. 

However, what about the OTHER days of the 70th week? Most people call that "the trib." If we just follow John, the DAY of His wrath begins at the 6th seal, before any of the 70th week, then the 70th week starts with the first trumpet, inside the Day of His wrath. Therefore the trumpet judgments come WITH His wrath. The only way around this is to rearrange Revelation, which will prove your theory wrong. 

I did not expect you to believe this post anyway. I posted it for the correct side of this discussion. It has been way lopsided towards the posttrib side. 

Added later: You should know I disagree with prewrath theory. I studied Rosenthal and Van Kampen - the two men that started that theory, in great detail. Their theory is ERROR in capital letters. In other words, they MISSED it big time. They did not understand that there will be TWO MORE times the sun will turn dark. Joel 2 shows us the sun will turn dark and the moon into blood before the Day of the Lord begins. That is the sign for the Day of the Lord. We see that sign at the 6th seal START of the Day of the Lord.

Then Matthew 24 shows us A SECOND time there is a sign in the sun and moon, but this time BOTH ARE DARK and cannot be seen. Here one of the Greek words means a total absence of light. It is going to be DARK when Jesus comes to Armageddon. No sun seen, no moon visible, not even any stars seen: just blackness. 

These two men should have realized that their theory required a total rearranging of Revelation.  That should have been a clue to their error. The truth is, they either did not understand John or did not believe him.

Edited April 4, 2020 by iamlamad

[iamlamad]

11 hours ago, Da Puppers said:

I would like to know how you equate the day of the lord with the rapture? 

40 - 45. A.D.

Matthew:   
 

45 - 50 A.D.

1st Thessalonians   
2nd Thessalonians   
1 Corinthians   
2 Corinthians   
Romans   
Luke   

Seeing that 1 Thess was written before any other epistle or gospel,  including the Revelation,  except Matthew,  where do you find Paul equating the two things together.   (Note: if my memory serves me right,  you don't believe that Jesus taught us about the rapture.  So where in 1Thess do you come up with that premise?)

I await your answer. 

Be Blessed 

The Pup 

Perhaps you should go back and read my post.  I did not equate the two, Paul did - writing of the Day of the Lord just 3 verses after his classic rapture verse.  OF COURSE Revelation was not written then. It did not have to be. the Holy Spirit knows all, so what Paul wrote fits like a hand in a glove with what John wrote.

Did you ever notice that Revelation 1-4 was while John was alive and well, receiving the visions: circa 95 AD? Did you then notice that in Rev. 20 John is over 1000 years future to us today?  Therefore, somewhere in between these two extremes must be OUR TIME and the time of the church.  

The church has been at the 5th seal martyrs of the church age all this time, waiting for the final church age martyr. Then the rapture will take place, making the last martyr the final martyr of the church age and making their number complete. A moment before the rapture, it is the age of grace. A moment after the rapture, the Day of His wrath has begun. Therefore BOTH Paul and John show us that the Day of the Lord will follow hard after the rapture: NO TIME in between. 

[Revelation Man]

The Day of the Lord is God's Wrath, its a 3.5 year period of Trumpet and Vial Judgments, the 7 Vials are the 7th Trump so you could says its the 7 Trump Judgments since the Seals must be opened before any Trump can sound. You CAN'T READ the Scroll with a Seal still on the scroll. So the Judgments start when the 7th Seal is opened. This makes PERFECT SENSE when we look at Rev. ch. 7, which is the Jews Fleeing Judea. I often wondered why they are not Protected while the Judgments are ongoing, then I understood, the Seals are not Judgments, they are Jesus Prophesying what is coming over a 42 Month period of God's coming Wrath. It all starts when the the Seal is opened, THENNNNNNNN, the First Trumpet Judgment is opened. Thus the Anti-Christ being released is not a Judgment per se, its a prophetic uttering. Likewise the 5th Seal Martyrs are a Prophetic uttering as is the 6th Seal, Jesus Prophesies that God's Wrath is nigh at hand, then the 7th Seal is opened an d the Trumps start Sounding.

If you miss the Pre 70th week Rapture YOU ARE IN the Day of the Lord, it is UPON YOU, unless you die before it comes to pass. So when Paul says it will be upon them, yes indeed, if you miss the pre trib  Rapture , you are going through the DOTL.

[iamlamad]

6 hours ago, Da Puppers said:

You didn't equate the rapture with the Dotl?

It is because the Day of the Lord has a close association with the rapture. We will see that the rapture will be the trigger for the start of the Day of the Lord.

Where does Paul say that the rapture precedes the Dotl in 1 Thess? 

You also said this,  

"Paul is giving us timing information here, but not direct. He is telling us that the rapture or catching up will be when people are saying “peace and safety.”

Ok,  I did imply your "equivocation" of the two phrases.  So let me restate. 

Where does Paul say that the rapture PRECEDES the DOTL? 

Saying that it will "not overtake you as a thief", it means will know when it will come.   How do we know when it will come?   Not by what men will be saying [peace, safety]  but by,

1Th 5:6 KJV Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.

The sleeping ones are the ones listening to the cries of peace and safety, ala, "there won't be tribulation going on when Jesus comes for the church, it will be peace and safety".  The watching ones are the ones who,

1Th 5:8 KJV But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.

The helmet of salvation does not constitute watching.   It just says you are in the game.   Faith and love are the essential components of watching. 

Eph 6:13 KJV Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand IN THE EVILDAY, and having done all, to stand.

Be Blessed 

The Pup 

Yes, I said it, but only copying Paul: HE is the one that said it. 

Where does Paul say that the rapture precedes the Dotl in 1 Thess?   You have to UNDERSTAND Paul. Just three verses after his classic rapture verse, in speaking of times and seasons, He mentions the day of the Lord.  Why would Paul do that? It is because the DAY follows the rapture just as he wrote it three verses later.

I think you need to study this a little deeper. Paul is telling is that the rapture will take place when people are saying peace and safety. What you are missing: at the same moment WE are being caught up, in that same moment THEY are facing "sudden destruction." WE get caught up, THEY get His wrath in the sudden destruction.  And that sudden destruction will be the start of the Day of the Lord. 

"For when they shall say, peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them" 

No problem: you seem to have it all figured out. I just hope it works out for you. 

[The Light]

On 4/3/2020 at 3:33 PM, iamlamad said:

Quote

You are still showing us you don't understand Revelation or the timing of God's wrath. You really think God would kill off 1/3 of earth's population (the 6th trumpet) and it NOT be in wrath? 

That's not what he showed us. He merely confirmed that you do not understand the difference between the tribulation and God's wrath.

Quote

I would say that the days of great tribulation will be between the A of D (which event divides the week) and the time God pours out the vials to shorten those days.

The great tribulation will be at the end of the week. Then God will poor out his wrath when the 7th seal is opened. Wrath will last for a time, times and half a time, 1260 days.

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However, what about the OTHER days of the 70th week? Most people call that "the trib." If we just follow John, the DAY of His wrath begins at the 6th seal, before any of the 70th week,

The tribulation is over before the wrath of God begins. Immediately after the tribulation of those days...That is the tribulation being over before the coming of the Lord, and the beginning of His wrath. That is why it says, when they say peace and safety, sudden destruction comes. In other words they say peace and safety when the tribulation is over and yet sudden destruction comes with Gods wrath.

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then the 70th week starts with the first trumpet

The 70th week is over before the 1st trumpet is sounded. The 70th week is the tribulation, immediately after it is over the wrath of God begins.

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  Therefore the trumpet judgments come WITH His wrath.

Well you understand that.

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The only way around this is to rearrange Revelation, which will prove your theory wrong.

  Instead of rearranging Revelation, why not just understand it.

 

 

 

[Diaste]

On 4/3/2020 at 2:33 PM, iamlamad said:

You are still showing us you don't understand Revelation or the timing of God's wrath. You really think God would kill off 1/3 of earth's population (the 6th trumpet) and it NOT be in wrath? 

It does not matter what I think, only what the scripture says. An assumption I will not make is that when people die in any number it's God's wrath. 

"Then I heard a loud voice from the temple saying to the seven angels, “Go, pour out on the earth the seven bowls of God’s wrath.”"

Specific here. This is not said about seals or trumps ergo, they seals and trumps are not God's wrath.

"...they cursed the name of God, who had authority over these plagues..."

This is not said about the seals or trumps.

6th seal, "...their wrath is come..."

7th trump, "...your wrath is come..."

Wrath does not begin before the 6th seal/7th trump time space moment.

On 4/3/2020 at 2:33 PM, iamlamad said:

I would say that the days of great tribulation will be between the A of D (which event divides the week) and the time God pours out the vials to shorten those days. 

Yes, that is what is written.

On 4/3/2020 at 2:33 PM, iamlamad said:

However, what about the OTHER days of the 70th week? Most people call that "the trib." If we just follow John, the DAY of His wrath begins at the 6th seal, before any of the 70th week, then the 70th week starts with the first trumpet, inside the Day of His wrath. Therefore the trumpet judgments come WITH His wrath. The only way around this is to rearrange Revelation, which will prove your theory wrong.

I did not expect you to believe this post anyway. I posted it for the correct side of this discussion. It has been way lopsided towards the posttrib side. 

The day of their wrath does indeed begin AFTER the 6th seal. The 6th seal is the sign of His coming, not the beginning of wrath; that's the 7th trump.

"The nations were enraged, and Your wrath has come." - 7th trump

You saying wrath begins at the 1st trump is outside what scripture says.

On 4/3/2020 at 2:33 PM, iamlamad said:

Added later: You should know I disagree with prewrath theory. I studied Rosenthal and Van Kampen - the two men that started that theory, in great detail. Their theory is ERROR in capital letters. In other words, they MISSED it big time. They did not understand that there will be TWO MORE times the sun will turn dark. Joel 2 shows us the sun will turn dark and the moon into blood before the Day of the Lord begins. That is the sign for the Day of the Lord. We see that sign at the 6th seal START of the Day of the Lord.

Two more? So, three times? Yes, Joel says BEFORE the Day of the Lord. Therefore this fits with with Rev 6 and Matt 24 as the sign of His coming, not the beginning of wrath. 

I know you say things. Can you post scripture that says the signs in Joel happen three times?

Those authors did not START a THEORY, they saw what was written. 

On 4/3/2020 at 2:33 PM, iamlamad said:

Then Matthew 24 shows us A SECOND time there is a sign in the sun and moon, but this time BOTH ARE DARK and cannot be seen. Here one of the Greek words means a total absence of light. It is going to be DARK when Jesus comes to Armageddon. No sun seen, no moon visible, not even any stars seen: just blackness. 

These two men should have realized that their theory required a total rearranging of Revelation.  That should have been a clue to their error. The truth is, they either did not understand John or did not believe him.

Prove Matt 24 is a second occurrence of the signs...from scripture...not your personal belief. Right now that's all you have is a personal interpretation. If you can post scripture as evidence of two or more happenings of the cosmic signs I'll be convinced.

[The Light]

On 4/3/2020 at 3:33 PM, iamlamad said:

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 You should know I disagree with prewrath theory. I studied Rosenthal and Van Kampen - the two men that started that theory, in great detail. Their theory is ERROR in capital letters. In other words, they MISSED it big time. They did not understand that there will be TWO MORE times the sun will turn dark. Joel 2 shows us the sun will turn dark and the moon into blood before the Day of the Lord begins. That is the sign for the Day of the Lord. We see that sign at the 6th seal START of the Day of the Lord.

Then Matthew 24 shows us A SECOND time there is a sign in the sun and moon, but this time BOTH ARE DARK and cannot be seen. Here one of the Greek words means a total absence of light. It is going to be DARK when Jesus comes to Armageddon. No sun seen, no moon visible, not even any stars seen: just blackness. 

These two men should have realized that their theory required a total rearranging of Revelation.  That should have been a clue to their error. The truth is, they either did not understand John or did not believe him.

This is merely a lack of understanding. Take this example in an attempt to clarify.

Rev 6

¹² And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

¹³ And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

Revclare 6

And I beheld when the farmer opened the 6th gate, there was a great clucking. The farmer grabbed the rooster, threw him over the chopping block, and cut off his head.

Matt 24

²⁹ Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Mattclare 24

Immediately after grabbing the ax in those days, the farmer grabbed the rooster, threw him over the chopping block, and the roosters head was on the ground.

You are saying that the moon being as blood in Rev 6 is not the same as the moon not giving light in Matt 24. This is totally incorrect. Let's go with facts and science. The moon goes black in a lunar eclipse. It also turns as the color of blood and is called a blood moon. Both events, the moon being blackened and not giving light, and the moon turning to blood red occur during a lunar eclipse.

In the examples given we see the roosters head being cut off in one example, and the roosters head on the ground in the other example. It is the same event happening even as the moon not  giving light and the moon as blood occurs in the same event. Check science or go watch a lunar eclipse. Both events happen.

The cosmic events in Revelation 6 are the same cosmic events in Matt 24. If you want to understand end times you should start by lining up these two events.