Why so much disagreement on the start of THE DAY?

[Diaste]

49 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

 John saw the great crowd, too large to number, in chapter 7, before he even started the 70th week! 

You know, John started nothing. John is only writing what he saw and heard. God the Father is the one in control and the guiding influence for all things. That you keep giving credit to John for the events in the Revelation is troubling to me, and others no doubt. But this flies in the face of your personal chronology of Revelation, doesn't it? I thought you held that the...no...you think the gospel is the interpretation of the 1st seal...and...the last week begins at the 6th seal... so then I guess your take does have internal consistency in this case.

49 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

Well, it's a theory: 

E.G., "That's not what God said."

49 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

John shows us God's wrath begins (The day of the Lord begins) at the 6th seal, before the document or book has even been opened. 

Not opened? Wasn't it you who said the entire book had to opened before the end could begin? And according to you the book was opened in the 1st century as I know you think the Gospel is the rider of the white horse from the first seal. So the book has been opened. So much for internal consistency.

49 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

Paul shows us that HIS rapture or gathering comes just a moment before that start of the DAY - so it will be a moment before the 6th seal. Then John SAW the raptured church in heaven shortly after the 6th seal rapture. 

True. Your timing is wrong, however.

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The church then will be in heaven for the entire 70th week and some little time after the week. You do understand, Rev. 19, showing His coming is AFTER chapter 16 that ends the week? 

That might be true if the Revelation was a strict chronology. Since it isn't, it's not true. Someone pointed out to you that if it was a strict chronology there's a problem with duration, to wit:

Revelation 2:10

and ye shall have tribulation ten days: 

Revelation 9:5

 but that they should be tormented five months: 

Revelation 11:2

and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

Revelation 11:3

 they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days

Revelation 11:9

 three days and an half, 

Revelation 12:6

feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

Revelation 12:14

 she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time

Revelation 13:5

 and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

Adding together the above times we come to a total of almost 18 years. Even if we allow for chapter 11 and 12 where it's obvious the time mentioned is the same time/space duration it's still nearly 11 years. Too long. Incorrect exegesis. Faulty hermeneutics. False conclusion that Rev is a STRICT chronology.

There are chronological elements. The outline is chronologic. But the events within overlap in some cases, some are concurrent. So Rev is a successive concurrence, so to speak, culminating at the 7th seal, some months short of the end of the week, when all the vials are poured out, likely en masse, and the consequences and events of the vials run their course.

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There can be no doubt to the serious bible student that the trumpet judgments are part of the Day of the Lord, fulfilling just what the Old Testament said the DAY was all about. There can be no doubt, the trumpet judgments also come with God's wrath, being a part of the DAY. 

Oh, there is a great deal of doubt when stuff is made up. The trumps are never called judgements in scripture, only men do that so, false.

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Then of course the church, having been raptured to heaven before the week, will be IN HEAVEN in chapter 19, and in heaven for the marriage and supper, that will take place IN HEAVEN before Jesus descends. 

Doubtful. Above refutation on strict chronology answers this.

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Axiom on Revelation:

ANY theory that must rearrange John's God given chronology is immediately suspect and WILL BE proven wrong.

Axiom; "a statement or proposition that is regarded as being established, accepted, or self-evidently true."

Since your personal maxim on the chronology of Revelation is not ubiquitous, it's not axiomatic.

In contrast an axiom example is the distributive property of multiplication. Or, "There is no other name under heaven whereby which men must be saved."

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So what if the trumpet blasts came from the Talmud? Do you think Paul was ignorant of the different trumpet blasts that was common knowledge in his day? He knew EXACTLY what He was talking about. He has probably lived through 40 or 50 Feasts of trumpets by that time in his life.

This is just more emotional pleading. The point was Lev 23:24. Which Paul would have known and favored eschewing the traditions of men.

Colossians 2:8 

Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

Clearly Paul disparaged the traditions of men. And we all need to be wary of those teaching such things. Like you.

Matthew 15:9

“But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.” 

This is what you do in a nutshell. Parrot the teaching of men. Vanity.

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Just to remind you once more: there will be TWO times the signs in the sun and moon come: 

First for the Day of the Lord the sign (Joel 2 and at the 6th seal) will be a darkened sun (eclipse?) and a blood moon (eclipse?).

For the sign for His coming, the sign is different: the moon will not be seen AT ALL, neither will the stars or the sun: John tells us it will be total darkness. 

Next, there will be TWO COMINGS: first He will come pretrib FOR His saints and He will not touch down, but remain in the clouds, then He will come after the days of GT AND after the week, WITH His Saints. He will touch down at this coming. NO ONE will know the day nor the hour for either one of these comings. 

There is just no response to such silliness except for this advice;

Proverbs 26:4 

4 Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him.

Ecclesiastics 22:13

“Talk not much with a fool, and go not to him that hath no understanding: beware of him, lest thou have trouble, and thou shalt never be defiled with his fooleries: depart from him, and thou shalt find rest, and never be disquieted with madness.”

Edited August 26, 2018 by Diaste

[iamlamad]

14 hours ago, Diaste said:

  15 hours ago, iamlamad said:

 John saw the great crowd, too large to number, in chapter 7, before he even started the 70th week! 

 

You know, John started nothing. John is only writing what he saw and heard. God the Father is the one in control and the guiding influence for all things. That you keep giving credit to John for the events in the Revelation is troubling to me, and others no doubt. But this flies in the face of your personal chronology of Revelation, doesn't it? I thought you held that the...no...you think the gospel is the interpretation of the 1st seal...and...the last week begins at the 6th seal... so then I guess your take does have internal consistency in this case.

 

I wrote, "John saw..."    "After this I beheld" (KJV) Why would you argue this point?  It is a fact, John SAW. I agree, God was controling WHAT John saw. It was a vision and God was the origin of that vision.  I am only giving credit for John WRITING it! God is the one giving the vision. 

"Flies in the face?"  I KNOW Revelation is in chronological order - as much as it is possible! You don't know it yet - but one day you will.  It is very difficult to keep things perfect when there are 5 parallel paths all happening at the same time! In fact, 6! There are the five mentions of the last 3 1/2 years - all parallel events, but then there is John's narrative of these five along with the five.  My point is, except for parentheses, events in any given chapter will always come AFTER events of a previous chapter and BEFORE events of a later chapter.

It seems you wish to move seal 6, not realized how silly that is. The seals are sealing a document! The document cannot be opened until all seals are opened. That is why John wrote:

 

8:1 And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour.

² And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets.

The truth is, these angels are not going to get the trumpets UNTIL the 7th seal has been opened! 

Just to set the record straight, I don't think the first seal is to represent the gospel: I KNOW it does.  And it is not the 6th seal that starts the week, it is the 7th. I know the entire week is "marked" (His word not mine) with 7's. It is the DAY that begins at the 6th seal. However, if someone wanted to argue that point and say the DAY starts with the first trumpet - I would not argue that with him or her. 

By the way, this IS internal consistency. 

[iamlamad]

14 hours ago, Diaste said:

  15 hours ago, iamlamad said:

John shows us God's wrath begins (The day of the Lord begins) at the 6th seal, before the document or book has even been opened. 

Not opened? Wasn't it you who said the entire book had to opened before the end could begin? And according to you the book was opened in the 1st century as I know you think the Gospel is the rider of the white horse from the first seal. So the book has been opened. So much for internal consistency.

It seems you don't read very well. Can you at least VISION or IMAGINE a scroll sealed with 7 seals? Opening a seal is NOT opening the document! All 7 seals MUST be opened or broken before the scroll can be unrolled. That is just common sense. 

Can we know when the actual book or scroll is opened? Certain, right after the 7th and last seal has been broken or opened. In other words, the trumpet judgments are what is written INSIDE the scroll. Don't be confused now! It is not open YET, because the 6th and 7th seals have not yet been opened or broken. (They were in the vision but NOT in reality.) 

Now, what happened in the first century? Well, Jesus ascended and sent the Holy Spirit down - EXACTLY as shown in REv. 5. Then Jesus got the book into HIS HANDS at the same time, or a second or two later. Then Jesus broke or opened the first seal around 32 AD. (A SEAL was opened, not the book!) 

CAn you at least IMAGINE the difference between a SEAL sealing a document being opened versus the document itself? Try at least! 

 

[iamlamad]

14 hours ago, Diaste said:

  15 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Paul shows us that HIS rapture or gathering comes just a moment before that start of the DAY - so it will be a moment before the 6th seal. Then John SAW the raptured church in heaven shortly after the 6th seal rapture. 

True. Your timing is wrong, however.

You only say that because your timing is different than mine. Sorry, but yours is the one wrong.  Just to refresh your mind, the great crowd too large to number was written in chapter 7. Why? Because that is where it was in the vision John saw. It was right after the sealing. 

Have you ever seen a play where the curtain closes? What happens behind that curtain? the SET is changed to fit the next act.  That is just what chapter 7 is about: There are two events that absolutely MUST take place (rearranging the set) before John can open the 7th seal that officially starts the 70th week: those two events are, the 144,000 MUST be sealed. And the church MUST be seen safely in heaven.  Believe it, for it is TRUTH.

[iamlamad]

15 hours ago, Diaste said:

 Quote

The church then will be in heaven for the entire 70th week and some little time after the week. You do understand, Rev. 19, showing His coming is AFTER chapter 16 that ends the week? 

That might be true if the Revelation was a strict chronology. Since it isn't, it's not true. Someone pointed out to you that if it was a strict chronology there's a problem with duration, to wit:

Revelation 2:10

and ye shall have tribulation ten days: 

Revelation 9:5

 but that they should be tormented five months: 

Revelation 11:2

and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

Revelation 11:3

 they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days

Revelation 11:9

 three days and an half, 

Revelation 12:6

feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

Revelation 12:14

 she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time

Revelation 13:5

 and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

Adding together the above times we come to a total of almost 18 years. Even if we allow for chapter 11 and 12 where it's obvious the time mentioned is the same time/space duration it's still nearly 11 years. Too long. Incorrect exegesis. Faulty hermeneutics. False conclusion that Rev is a STRICT chronology.

There are chronological elements. The outline is chronologic. But the events within overlap in some cases, some are concurrent. So Rev is a successive concurrence, so to speak, culminating at the 7th seal, some months short of the end of the week, when all the vials are poured out, likely en masse, and the consequences and events of the vials run their course.

Since it isn't, it's not true.  It IS so it IS true.  You just don't know it yet. If you had read my answer, you would not be bringing it up again!

Diaste, how many times am I going to have to do your homework for you? 

EVERY (that means all or every one) of the mentions of the 3 1/2 year period of time are in the LAST HALF of the week. If you don't believe this, read it again and again until you do: it is TRUTH. 

Therefore, while the Beast is having his 42 months of authority, the WOMAN is being protected for time, times and half of time, and the WOMAN is fleeing for 1260 days, and the two witnesses are testifying for 1260 days, and the city is being trampled. In other words, these five events are running concurrently or parallel. If two events or more are happening at the same time, how in the world can someone write of them at the same time? It is impossible! 

However, All these events will have a staggered start, so the 42 months of trampling will start first, followed closely by the two witnesses 1260 days of testifying. Then, around 3 1/2 days later, those living in Judea will begin to flee.  Got it? They all don't start at the same moment in time!

You can be SURE, the fleeing will not start before the city will start to be trampled! So even though these events will run concurrently, John is PERFECT in His chronology and on the time of the STARTING of each event.  Therefore, when I say that the events of Revelation 19 will come AFTER the events of chapter 16, you can take that to the bank.  You can disagree all you want - but in the end you will find out I was right all along. John DID write as much as possible chronologically.  Therefore it is SILLY to try and add these numbers up. No one is saying that at all. EACH ONE is a count from the midpoint to the END and they are all happening (after their staggered start) at the same time.

"some are concurrent"  BRAVO! 

What exactly did I write? I wrote that events in one chapter would come AFTER events in a previous chapter. Since John shows us the START of each event, then what I said is absolute truth: the woman beginning to flee will come AFTER the city will start to be trampled. You won't believe it but it will be close to 3 1/2 days later. And the woman beginning to flee will come BEFORE the 42 month start of authority for the Beast. 

culminating at the 7th seal

Absolutely wrong!  How long will it be before you understand, the BOOK cannot be opened until all 7 seals are opened FIRST?  NO TRUMPET will be sounded until all 7 seals are opened. NO VIAL will be poured out until all 7 trumpets have sounded. If you don't believe this, read it again! It is TRUTH. 

Edited August 27, 2018 by iamlamad

[iamlamad]

15 hours ago, Diaste said:

  Quote

There can be no doubt to the serious bible student that the trumpet judgments are part of the Day of the Lord, fulfilling just what the Old Testament said the DAY was all about. There can be no doubt, the trumpet judgments also come with God's wrath, being a part of the DAY. 

Oh, there is a great deal of doubt when stuff is made up. The trumps are never called judgements in scripture, only men do that so, false.

Doubtful. Above refutation on strict chronology answers this.

I am not going to do your homework for you! It is up to you to read about THE DAY in the Old Testament. There are many such verses. 

Revelation 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 

Are the trumpets God starting this process?  Of course they are!

Revelation 14:7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

Are the vials a part of God's judgment? Of course they are!

Isaiah 34:

⁵ For my sword shall be bathed in heaven: behold, it shall come down upon Idumea, and upon the people of my curse, to judgment.

⁶ The sword of the Lord is filled with blood, it is made fat with fatness, and with the blood of lambs and goats, with the fat of the kidneys of rams: for the Lord hath a sacrifice in Bozrah, and a great slaughter in the land of Idumea.

Make no mistake, the Day of the Lord is judgment. Make no mistake, the trumpets are a part of the DAY. 

[iamlamad]

15 hours ago, Diaste said:

 Quote

Axiom on Revelation:

ANY theory that must rearrange John's God given chronology is immediately suspect and WILL BE proven wrong.

Axiom; "a statement or proposition that is regarded as being established, accepted, or self-evidently true."

You may not believe it today, but the day will come when you WILL, for it is TRUTH. 

You have already proved again that your theory will be proven wrong, for you wanted to rearrange the 7th seal. Trust me, trying to rearrange Revelation is an effort of futility! The 7th seal will be the FINAL or last seal to be opened so that the DOCUMENT can be opened and read - and those events come to pass.  It is good that you love the Brethren! Your love shows in your posts!

[Diaste]

5 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Since it isn't, it's not true.  It IS so it IS true.  You just don't know it yet. If you had read my answer, you would not be bringing it up again!

Diaste, how many times am I going to have to do your homework for you? 

EVERY (that means all or every one) of the mentions of the 3 1/2 year period of time are in the LAST HALF of the week. If you don't believe this, read it again and again until you do: it is TRUTH. 

Therefore, while the Beast is having his 42 months of authority, the WOMAN is being protected for time, times and half of time, and the WOMAN is fleeing for 1260 days, and the two witnesses are testifying for 1260 days, and the city is being trampled. In other words, these five events are running concurrently or parallel. If two events or more are happening at the same time, how in the world can someone write of them at the same time? It is impossible! 

However, All these events will have a staggered start, so the 42 months of trampling will start first, followed closely by the two witnesses 1260 days of testifying. Then, around 3 1/2 days later, those living in Judea will begin to flee.  Got it? They all don't start at the same moment in time!

You can be SURE, the fleeing will not start before the city will start to be trampled! So even though these events will run concurrently, John is PERFECT in His chronology and on the time of the STARTING of each event.  Therefore, when I say that the events of Revelation 19 will come AFTER the events of chapter 16, you can take that to the bank.  You can disagree all you want - but in the end you will find out I was right all along. John DID write as much as possible chronologically.  Therefore it is SILLY to try and add these numbers up. No one is saying that at all. EACH ONE is a count from the midpoint to the END and they are all happening (after their staggered start) at the same time.

"some are concurrent"  BRAVO! 

What exactly did I write? I wrote that events in one chapter would come AFTER events in a previous chapter. Since John shows us the START of each event, then what I said is absolute truth: the woman beginning to flee will come AFTER the city will start to be trampled. You won't believe it but it will be close to 3 1/2 days later. And the woman beginning to flee will come BEFORE the 42 month start of authority for the Beast. 

culminating at the 7th seal

Absolutely wrong!  How long will it be before you understand, the BOOK cannot be opened until all 7 seals are opened FIRST?  NO TRUMPET will be sounded until all 7 seals are opened. NO VIAL will be poured out until all 7 trumpets have sounded. If you don't believe this, read it again! It is TRUTH. 

I'm pretty sure you have said numerous times that Rev is a chronology from beginning to end. Now you change. 

In fact you have cited things like the Rev 19 only occurs after Rev 16, for example. No matter. You can do and say and think anything you like. No restrictions. 

The truth is Rev 19...

"11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, King Of Kings, And Lord Of Lords."

....is the very same event as Rev 6...

"12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?"

...just described in greater detail as we are shown what Jesus looks like when he returns at the 6th seal.

You don't think there are two comings of Jesus in wrath in Rev do you? 

So the events of Rev 19 occur just as spoken in Matt 24, the gathering has occurred at the sign of the coming of Jesus, Rev 19:1-10, and then heaven is opened and Jesus comes to earth with a great army of warrior angels to bring the wrath of God on the enemies of God. So then, the 6th seal is the same as the return of Jesus in Rev 19:11-16.

 

 

[Diaste]

5 hours ago, iamlamad said:

I am not going to do your homework for you! It is up to you to read about THE DAY in the Old Testament. There are many such verses. 

Revelation 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 

Are the trumpets God starting this process?  Of course they are!

Revelation 14:7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

Are the vials a part of God's judgment? Of course they are!

Isaiah 34:

⁵ For my sword shall be bathed in heaven: behold, it shall come down upon Idumea, and upon the people of my curse, to judgment.

⁶ The sword of the Lord is filled with blood, it is made fat with fatness, and with the blood of lambs and goats, with the fat of the kidneys of rams: for the Lord hath a sacrifice in Bozrah, and a great slaughter in the land of Idumea.

Make no mistake, the Day of the Lord is judgment. Make no mistake, the trumpets are a part of the DAY. 

Not talking about the vials. You said trumps.

Vials are wrath. Trumps are never called 'judgments'. Judgment is a concept. Trumps may be an instrument of judgment, or a consequence of judgment, but they are not 'judgment' of themselves.

Mankind calls the trumps and vials judgment, but this is not what scripture says.

[iamlamad]

3 hours ago, Diaste said:

Not talking about the vials. You said trumps.

Vials are wrath. Trumps are never called 'judgments'. Judgment is a concept. Trumps may be an instrument of judgment, or a consequence of judgment, but they are not 'judgment' of themselves.

Mankind calls the trumps and vials judgment, but this is not what scripture says.

So in your imagination, you imagine that when God kills 1/3 of earth's population it is NOT judgment? 

I think you only want to argue.  OF COURSE the sound of a trumpet is not judgment in itself. No one has ever suggested such a thing! But at each of the first 6 trumpet sounds, EVENTS take place, and those events ARE very much a part of God judging the sinners on the earth.