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JoeCanada

When do Revelations seals open

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3 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Sorry, but HE told me personally, Rev. 12:5 was HIM being caught up. That passage is a parenthesis about His birth and how the Dragon tried to kill him as a child - not about the church. Sorry, there is NO timing connection between Rev. 4 (a time before Christ rose) and Rev. 12:5 except Rev. 12:1-5 is His entire life on earth in one or two sentences. Somewhere between Him as a small child and His ascension back into heaven is that time in Rev. 4 before He rose from the dead. 

Rev. 4  through 5 is showing us a time just before He rose from the dead, to the very time He rose from the dead and then ascended. That IS the timing of these two chapters, to show us the correct timing of the first seal as first centuries.

No, it's the body of Christ being caught up. Rev 12:1-5 sign came to pass on 9/23/17, not 2000 yr ago.

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4 hours ago, Last Daze said:

If the 5th seal was opened on or before 95 AD, how do you interpret the opening of seals 2-4?  Was the 5th seal opened before Stephen was martyred in Acts 7?

I think the first five seals were opened as soon as Jesus ascended. Why? The fifth seal is the first hint of a long wait until judgment time.   Yes, it was opened before Stephen was killed. 

Seal one is the CHURCH sent out with the GOSPEL.

Seals 2-4 is to represent the devil's attempts to stop the advance of the Gospel, or to kill people before they have a chance to accept the gospel. These three ride together and were and are limited to 1/4th of the earth - with Jerusalem as the center.  It was the devil's hopes he could keep the gospel contained. That plan failed miserably! 

Edited by iamlamad

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1 hour ago, Heb 13:8 said:

No, it's the body of Christ being caught up. Rev 12:1-5 sign came to pass on 9/23/17, not 2000 yr ago.

There may have been something similar in 2017, but that sign was what Virgo looked like At Jesus birth. This entire passage, 1-5 is about Jesus Christ. The Chapter is about the dragon and in particular what the Dragon would be doing during the last half of the week, but verses 1-5 is about what the Dragon DID when Jesus was a child, how the Dragon convinced King Herod to kill many in an attempt to kill Jesus. 

It does not matter of you don't believe it - it is truth anyway.  Words from Jesus to me: "History lesson" for John.

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1 hour ago, Heb 13:8 said:

No, Rev 12:5 the word harpazo is meant for the church. The church will actually rule with Christ with a rod of iron, Rev 2:26-27.

You can believe this if you choose to.  The truth is, Jesus was "harpazo"d up to heaven. It is the word John chose. If you don't like John's choice, ask Him about it when we get there. 

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7 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

I think the first five seals were opened as soon as Jesus ascended. Why? The fifth seal is the first hint of a long wait until judgment time.   Yes, it was opened before Stephen was killed. 

Here's the second seal:

  • When He broke the second seal, I heard the second living creature saying, “Come.”  And another, a red horse, went out; and to him who sat on it, it was granted to take peace from the earth, and that men would slay one another; and a great sword was given to him.  Revelation 6:3-4

War did not start with the second seal so what war is this a reference to specifically?  Please give as much detail as possible.

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6 hours ago, Last Daze said:

Here's the second seal:

  • When He broke the second seal, I heard the second living creature saying, “Come.”  And another, a red horse, went out; and to him who sat on it, it was granted to take peace from the earth, and that men would slay one another; and a great sword was given to him.  Revelation 6:3-4

War did not start with the second seal so what war is this a reference to specifically?  Please give as much detail as possible.

I don't think seals 2-4 is specific to any specific war, famine or pestilence - only that Satan would used these things to stop or slow down the gospel. 

I did find a list of all wars in Europe in the first 1000 years (AD) and it seemed there was hardly any time there was not some war or skirmish going on somewhere.  I was amazed. 

Just my opinion: I have thought much about this document. I suspect it is the lease document between God, Adam, and Satan. Satan was involved because he usurped Adam's lease.  He wanted to be able to resist the gospel, so we see these three seals. I can just imagine his boasting that he could keep the gospel contained in that 1/4 of the earth, and so make God out to be a liar. I suspect he did not think any man at any time could EVER escape hell, and become worthy to open the seals - so he would remain the god of this world forever. 

We know now that HE LOST! The gospel is everywhere - almost. 

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8 hours ago, iamlamad said:

There may have been something similar in 2017, but that sign was what Virgo looked like At Jesus birth. This entire passage, 1-5 is about Jesus Christ. The Chapter is about the dragon and in particular what the Dragon would be doing during the last half of the week, but verses 1-5 is about what the Dragon DID when Jesus was a child, how the Dragon convinced King Herod to kill many in an attempt to kill Jesus. 

It does not matter of you don't believe it - it is truth anyway.  Words from Jesus to me: "History lesson" for John.

No, Rev 12:1-5 is referring to corporate entities, Israel, the body of Christ and the Antichrist system. The word harpazo in 1 Thess 4:17 and Rev 12:5 is referring to the rapture of the church. Lack of knowledge is the drug of death.

Ok, so there's three stages to the body of Christ when discussing end times events. The scriptures below are just a collection of what I've gathered.

More than likely, there is probably more scriptures that coincide with the three stages and the travail of the body through cross reference. These passages are just the basics for now, but as long as we have the format or the outline it can make algebra look like addition.

1. Corporate conception of the church - Acts 2:1-4/Matt 1:20 (Example of Holy Spirit conception)
2. Individual conception in the believer - John 3:16, Rom 10:9, Eph 1:13-14 (Seed Gal 3:19, Gal 3:29, 1Pe 1:23, 1Jo 3:9)
3. Corporate birth of the church - 1 Cor 15:50-54, 1 Thess 4:13-18, Rev 12:5

After the conception of the church at Pentecost, whenever someone comes to faith in Christ that person gets placed into the body of Christ. For 2,000 years, His body has been in gestation growing ever so larger until the body gets to what is called a full term pregnancy. Full term is anywhere between 37 to 42 weeks, via Jupiter in the body of Virgo for 42 weeks completing the Rev 12:1-5 great sign in its awesome perfection and form.

God is using the human conception/gestation/birth story to describe His story of the divinity of the church age. Just as a child's head comes out first prior to the body, so it is with Jesus (the head of the church) ascending to heaven first prior to the body, Col 1:18...

Isa 53:11 - Jesus body in travail
Rom 8:22-25 - the body of Christ groans for their resurrected bodies
1 Cor 15:8 - Paul feels abnormally born without resurrected body
1 Cor 15:50-54/2 Cor 5:1-5 - Mortal/Immortal/Swallowed up
2 Cor 5:1-5 - the body of Christ groans for their resurrected bodies
Gal 4:19 - Paul relates travail in birth to not being formed yet

Hopefully, I've made this as easy as possible to discern. This is probably one of the most complex topics in relation to end times, but once it clicks in your mind and you see the bigger picture you will see it like a blind man opening his eyes for the first time.

Sometimes tradition isn't always right, Jhn 20:29. God bless.

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8 hours ago, iamlamad said:

You can believe this if you choose to.  The truth is, Jesus was "harpazo"d up to heaven. It is the word John chose. If you don't like John's choice, ask Him about it when we get there. 

No, the term for Jesus ascension was not the word "harpazo". A harpazo is a rescue from the red dragon. Jesus had already defeated the devil in which He did not need to be rescued or snatched away quickly. God bless.

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11 hours ago, Heb 13:8 said:

No, the term for Jesus ascension was not the word "harpazo". A harpazo is a rescue from the red dragon. Jesus had already defeated the devil in which He did not need to be rescued or snatched away quickly. God bless.

Sorry, but harpazo does not have to mean a rescue. It can mean being raised up by an outside power, such as the Holy Spirit which is exactly what happened with Jesus.  Your personal definitions get you into trouble. 

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12 hours ago, iamlamad said:

I don't think seals 2-4 is specific to any specific war, famine or pestilence - only that Satan would used these things to stop or slow down the gospel. 

If they don't speak of a specific time of war then they are pretty much meaningless.  War, famine, and pestilence existed long before the time of Christ.  There's nothing to indicate that those seals impede the gospel in any way, or that that's their purpose.  A paper shortage would make more sense than a food shortage if the objective was to slow down the gospel, and have you ever heard the expression that there are no atheists in a foxhole?  Being keenly aware of our mortality would seem to have the opposite effect of slowing the gospel.

War, famine, pestilence, and martyrdom are signs given to indicate the nearness of His coming, that He is right at the door.  The seals correspond to those signs and won't be opened until the spreading of the gospel, the times of the Gentiles, is fulfilled.

  • This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come.  Matthew 24:14

The gospel of the kingdom being preached to the Gentiles corresponds to the "these things" of the seven letters to the seven Gentile churches.  The seals are opened after those things.  The gospel is preached around the world and then the seals are opened which reveal the sign of His coming.

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