Mark of the beast

[iamlamad]

On 11/12/2018 at 8:53 AM, Last Daze said:

Hi Dennis

According to Jesus' own words, the only unforgivable sin is blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.  That specific sin is a condition of the heart, not a one-time act.  It's a condition that results from repeatedly rejecting the Holy Spirit's conviction of sin.  Conviction of sin is what leads a person to repentance.  The unforgivable sin is a repeated hardening of the heart against the conviction of the Holy Spirit that occurs over time.  Out of the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaks.  That's why its referred to as blasphemy.

To answer your question, a person might make a decision to serve Satan for personal gain but they are not bound to continue in that decision.  Whether they will repent or continue in that sin depends on their response to the Holy Spirit's conviction.  I believe that there comes a point when the Holy Spirit quits striving with a person to repent but that point is only known to God.

Worshiping the image is idolatry.  Receiving and utilizing the mark is an aspect of the image.  The plagues are judgments against those who engage in that sin of idolatry.  If a person yields to the conviction of those judgments and repents, they will be forgiven.

The idea of committing one singular sin which seals a person's fate in unscriptural.  What seals a person's fate is persistent rejection of the conviction of the Holy Spirit.  If someone repeatedly hardens their heart, they will never repent.  If someone never repents, they are eternally lost.

There is ONE SIN that Jesus blood did not cover: that is the sin of rejecting Jesus Christ and His blood that takes away our sins. 

I agree in part: the more one rejects, the harder it is to change. Ultimately many who die as sinners was always planning SOME DAY to come to Christ. For them that "some day" never came. Others are so hardened they have no desire or intent to ever turn to God. 

However, we are talking about a different season: the end of days of the Jewish age. Remember, that age was "an eye for an eye." Forgiveness was by faith in the animal sacrifices - as Paul stated, keeping their conscience clean.  Many people like to quite church age verses to cover this time. I think this is error.  For example, the one good verse saints who are living through the days of GT have to put their faith in is that they will be overcome. That is God's word to them for that season. 

The thing is, God looks at the heart. We cannot. If someone takes the mark believing in their heart that the Beast is really the God of creation - it boggles the mind that anyone could believe that. God will send angels warning people before the mark is enforced.  

[Last Daze]

On 11/8/2018 at 8:54 AM, iamlamad said:

God sends angels to warn people - in their own language - every single person on the planet will get this warning: "take the mark and you will be doomed to the lake of fire."

 

13 hours ago, iamlamad said:

So you are saying that they HEAR an Angel, in their own language, make this announcement - but they don't understand it?

This idea that an angel informs every single person in their own language is something that you came up with.  The text never says that.

• And another angel, a second one, followed, saying, “Fallen, fallen is Babylon the great, she who has made all the nations drink of the wine of the passion of her immorality.”  Revelation 14:8

Does this angel also inform everyone about Babylon's demise in their own language?  Or is it simply meant to inform the reader?

The truth is that worshiping the image is idolatry.  Those who engage in that particular idol worship are subjected to the judgment and wrath of God.  According to Jesus, idolatry will be forgiven if repented of.  Those who refuse to repent of the image are eternally lost.  That's the message of Revelation 14:9-11.

There's no benefit in overstating (or understating) the consequences of the mark and image.  What if someone is convinced that their "fate is sealed" when it actually isn't?  That's bondage resulting from a lie.

[iamlamad]

9 hours ago, Last Daze said:

 

This idea that an angel informs every single person in their own language is something that you came up with.  The text never says that.

• And another angel, a second one, followed, saying, “Fallen, fallen is Babylon the great, she who has made all the nations drink of the wine of the passion of her immorality.”  Revelation 14:8

Does this angel also inform everyone about Babylon's demise in their own language?  Or is it simply meant to inform the reader?

The truth is that worshiping the image is idolatry.  Those who engage in that particular idol worship are subjected to the judgment and wrath of God.  According to Jesus, idolatry will be forgiven if repented of.  Those who refuse to repent of the image are eternally lost.  That's the message of Revelation 14:9-11.

There's no benefit in overstating (or understating) the consequences of the mark and image.  What if someone is convinced that their "fate is sealed" when it actually isn't?  That's bondage resulting from a lie.

Notice what is written of the first angel:

⁶ And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,

He is to preach to every nation, every kindred every tongue and people....What good would it do to preach to every people in a language they would not understand? I think when John wrote "tongue" it is to be understood that each would hear in their OWN tongue. Am I reading into that what is not intended?  Perhaps so - perhaps not.  God is a God of great mercy: it would be silly to think He would send an angel to give a message in a language not understood. I will not believe that.

If the first angel preaches to every nation and every tongue - or every language: it would seem that the two angels following him would follow him to all the nations and tongues. Again, am I reading into this passage something not indicated? I don't think so. 

Again, I hope you are right. I just don't think you are.

[Last Daze]

13 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Notice what is written of the first angel:

The first angel is not the second angel, neither is it the third angel.  I'll just leave it at this:

“I will display wonders in the sky and on the earth,
Blood, fire and columns of smoke.
“The sun will be turned into darkness
And the moon into blood
Before the great and awesome day of the Lord comes.
“And it will come about that whoever calls on the name of the Lord
Will be delivered;
For on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem
There will be those who escape,
As the Lord has said,
Even among the survivors whom the Lord calls.   Joel 2:30-32

[Mystic_Pizza]

On 11/7/2018 at 4:18 PM, iamlamad said:

Rev. 14

⁹ And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,

¹⁰ The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

¹¹ And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

....Seems like that pretty well answers THAT question!

[NOONE7]

From my understanding scripture states that if you take the mark you are lost forever.

As I believe the blasphemy of the Holy Ghost or the  rejecting of Jesus lead to the same destination in the end but the details in the differences of these two seem to be established in scriptures as well.  The Mark as well is different without it you cannot buy or sell but getting it leads to damnation forever.

[Last Daze]

40 minutes ago, NOONE7 said:

From my understanding scripture states that if you take the mark you are lost forever.

As I believe the blasphemy of the Holy Ghost or the  rejecting of Jesus lead to the same destination in the end but the details in the differences of these two seem to be established in scriptures as well.  The Mark as well is different without it you cannot buy or sell but getting it leads to damnation forever.

Fortunately, for those deceived by the false prophet, the words of Jesus will prevail over the doctrines of men:

• Therefore I say to you, any sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven people, but blasphemy against the Spirit shall not be forgiven.  Matthew 12:31

Idolatry is not blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.  Not all of those deceived by the false prophet are necessarily guilty of blasphemy of the Spirit.  Some very well may be.  Others might just be deceived.

There is a difference between being deceived and falling into transgression, and willful transgression.

[NOONE7]

1 hour ago, Last Daze said:

Fortunately, for those deceived by the false prophet, the words of Jesus will prevail over the doctrines of men:

• Therefore I say to you, any sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven people, but blasphemy against the Spirit shall not be forgiven.  Matthew 12:31

Idolatry is not blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.  Not all of those deceived by the false prophet are necessarily guilty of blasphemy of the Spirit.  Some very well may be.  Others might just be deceived.

There is a difference between being deceived and falling into transgression, and willful transgression.

Matthew 12:32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

 

Not idolatry but notice here the word speaketh against the Holy Ghost.  Both the Son and the Holy Ghost are God but as Persons of God with different roles.  Why did He say this?  In other verses Jesus stated this because some of them started saying some really bad things about the Holy Ghost.  Are words are directly associated with our heart and such a particular hatred that is shown by our words.  This seems to be a slight different then just rejecting Jesus but ultimately leads to the same destination in rejecting the Son.  I thank you for posting for my goal is to grow here and look forward to your next response.  

[Last Daze]

26 minutes ago, NOONE7 said:

Matthew 12:32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

 

Not idolatry but notice here the word speaketh against the Holy Ghost.  Both the Son and the Holy Ghost are God but as Persons of God with different roles.  Why did He say this?  In other verses Jesus stated this because some of them started saying some really bad things about the Holy Ghost.  Are words are directly associated with our heart and such a particular hatred that is shown by our words.  This seems to be a slight different then just rejecting Jesus but ultimately leads to the same destination in rejecting the Son.  I thank you for posting for my goal is to grow here and look forward to your next response.  

I agree with your view of our speech being a reflection of our heart.  That truth is essential in order to correctly understand what is meant by blaspheming the Holy Ghost:

• The good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth what is good; and the evil man out of the evil treasure brings forth what is evil; for his mouth speaks from that which fills his heart.  Luke 6:45

The Holy Spirit convicts the world of sin.  When convicted, a person will either humble themselves and repent, or they will reject His conviction by hardening their heart.  The Holy Spirit will continue to try and convict the unrepentant of their sins until a person hardens their heart beyond the point of repentance.  Only God knows when that point has been reached but a person's words reflect their heart condition.

Receiving the mark and worshiping the image is the sin of idolatry.  Those who are deceived into committing that sin will be forgiven if they repent of it.  The plagues will be used to convict the world of that idolatry.  Those who fail to repent will be eternally lost.  Those who are humbled by the plagues and repent will inherit the earth.

It's important to keep in mind the difference between willful sin and being deceived into a transgression.  Some people will be deceived into thinking that the false prophet is God because of the signs and wonders he performs.  They won't view receiving the mark and worshiping the image as "rejecting Jesus."  Regardless, sin is sin and no sin is acceptable for any reason.  It all needs to be avoided or repented of when convicted.

[Mystic_Pizza]

Romans 1:24-27

²⁴ Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. ²⁵ They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.

As usual, I don't recall what bible verse it is that states mankind was born with the knowledge within them that there is a God. In my own opinion, to believe that there isn't a God is straight out rebellion, and nothing else- because in our hearts, we all know the truth.

So far as people being deceived about the truth, I think that maybe there is a difference here, because God is 'allowing' them to believe a lie- to be deceived - but, again, in my own opinion, I think it's because those who would be deceived and believe the lie are those who have already demonstrated total rebellion against God and all things to do with God.

Just my two cents.