Mark of the beast

[Littlelambseativy]

Reread Revelation, please.

[Last Daze]

48 minutes ago, Diaste said:

It seemed to be implied. But that wasnt the point. You and I have been forgiven for violating every commandment, including the graven images thing. 

How could any group be excluded from forgiveness for the same thing of which we are guilty? 

Not saying this group would turn from their ways either individually or corporately, but the opportunity does exist.

For God is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

Exactly!  It's perplexing as to why some embrace a double standard concerning forgiveness.

[Mystic_Pizza]

57 minutes ago, Diaste said:

If i understand, your thought process is; you would feel personally responsible if you told someone there was the possibility of repentance after accepting the mark and/or worshipping the image, and in fact there was not, but that person you told accepted the mark hoping later to quickly repent when the time was right.

Yeah, if you said so knowing it was wrong.

Would you feel as personally responsible if you failed to tell a person the truth when that knowledge could be a possibility for salvation?

Absolutely. The thing is, knowing if it was wrong or not, there is a bible verse that makes me think a person's actions in this situation would result in...something they could never undo:

Revelation 14:9-11

⁹ A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives its mark on their forehead or on their hand, ¹⁰ they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. ¹¹ And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.”

I have never gone to the original...Greek? Hebrew? Aramaic? I have no idea, to find out what each individual word means in the original manuscript. But the fact of what this says leads me to believe that it isn't a 'forgive-able' offense: "And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever, no rest day or night, etc.". So, for me to tell someone that taking the mark is something that can be forgiven at a future date, would be wrong for me to do and would, in my eyes, lead someone astray- because I don't believe that.

Here we go, off into my opinion: When the time comes that the antichrist is in power, I think that the majority of humanity is going to be pretty far gone and 'out there', in regard to the way they think and see things- morals, values, religion, lack of religion, beings from another dimension involved in human affairs, you name it- we see this around us even now. I believe that a lot of people are going to know full well what the mark is, what it represents, and they will forge forward and do it anyway- in a form of rebellion against God that humanity hasn't quite come to, yet. Those who realize what it is and ...if they are saved, they are not saved, I honestly don't know who will be on earth at that time- and it goes back to the whole rapture argument again, which isn't what we're talking about here - anyway, those who realize what it is and decide not to take it will, no doubt, pay with their lives. It wouldn't be the first time in history that that's happened, including all of the apostles and Paul, save for one dying a natural death, John on Patmos- they were all martyred for proclaiming what they did about Jesus, and refusing to back down.

Good grief, I'm going off into left field here, lol-

Anyway, to sum it all up- you said "yeah, if you said so knowing it was wrong" - thing is, for something that is, in my opinion, of the utmost importance and could possibly result in someone doing something that could be irreversible? In a situation like that, I would say no, under no circumstances should a person take the mark or risk eternity separated from God for doing so. The reason I say that, is because life on earth is a 'blip' on the screen, so to speak- and we're like...to quote that old Kansas song, "Dust in the Wind", lol- I don't know beyond a shadow of a doubt that taking the mark could be forgiven- I don't believe it can - thing is, the ramifications of taking it and having it not be forgiven? Like I said, I would totally err on the side of caution. Stakes are way, way too high.

[Diaste]

21 minutes ago, Littlelambseativy said:

Reread Revelation, please.

Off topic. Just deal with the fact God's mercy and forgiveness are free to all who call upon Him at any time throughout the known universe, and to the end of time.

Unless in the case of blasphemy againt the holy Spirit, that is THE ONLY UNFORGIVABLE SIN. 

[Diaste]

16 minutes ago, Mystic_Pizza said:

Absolutely. The thing is, knowing if it was wrong or not, there is a bible verse that makes me think a person's actions in this situation would result in...something they could never undo:

Revelation 14:9-11

⁹ A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives its mark on their forehead or on their hand, ¹⁰ they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. ¹¹ And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.”

I have never gone to the original...Greek? Hebrew? Aramaic? I have no idea, to find out what each individual word means in the original manuscript. But the fact of what this says leads me to believe that it isn't a 'forgive-able' offense: "And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever, no rest day or night, etc.". So, for me to tell someone that taking the mark is something that can be forgiven at a future date, would be wrong for me to do and would, in my eyes, lead someone astray- because I don't believe that.

Here we go, off into my opinion: When the time comes that the antichrist is in power, I think that the majority of humanity is going to be pretty far gone and 'out there', in regard to the way they think and see things- morals, values, religion, lack of religion, beings from another dimension involved in human affairs, you name it- we see this around us even now. I believe that a lot of people are going to know full well what the mark is, what it represents, and they will forge forward and do it anyway- in a form of rebellion against God that humanity hasn't quite come to, yet. Those who realize what it is and ...if they are saved, they are not saved, I honestly don't know who will be on earth at that time- and it goes back to the whole rapture argument again, which isn't what we're talking about here - anyway, those who realize what it is and decide not to take it will, no doubt, pay with their lives. It wouldn't be the first time in history that that's happened, including all of the apostles and Paul, save for one dying a natural death, John on Patmos- they were all martyred for proclaiming what they did about Jesus, and refusing to back down.

Good grief, I'm going off into left field here, lol-

Anyway, to sum it all up- you said "yeah, if you said so knowing it was wrong" - thing is, for something that is, in my opinion, of the utmost importance and could possibly result in someone doing something that could be irreversible? In a situation like that, I would say no, under no circumstances should a person take the mark or risk eternity separated from God for doing so. The reason I say that, is because life on earth is a 'blip' on the screen, so to speak- and we're like...to quote that old Kansas song, "Dust in the Wind", lol- I don't know beyond a shadow of a doubt that taking the mark could be forgiven- I don't believe it can - thing is, the ramifications of taking it and having it not be forgiven? Like I said, I would totally err on the side of caution. Stakes are way, way too high.

Im not advocating accepting the mark and later, when it suits, quickly repent. Thats not going to work. For those not so deceived into taking the mark will rely on Jesus and love not their lives to death. 

Its those who are DECEIVED into worship of the image and the mark that still have a chance to turn.

You quoted the third angel above. Have you considered what the first two angels said? It's critical. 

Last Daze can probably do better than I here, and you should ask about this, but: these people who receive everlasting death for the mark and the worship, refuse to stop. Both ideas here are active and present, not a one time occurrence. 

Its likely the first angel is proclaiming his message to people who already have the mark and have worshipped the beast or his image because of verse 13.

[Mystic_Pizza]

7 minutes ago, Diaste said:

Its those who are DECEIVED into worship of the image and the mark that still have a chance to turn.

I will go check what the first two angels said in a bit, I know I've read it before in the past but at the moment, I can't even recall what was said- something about 'Woe unto the inhabitants of earth', but I'm not even sure that's in the same place as what you're talking about right not- Anyhow, lol...

Those who are deceived. I guess it's just me...but I'm thinking (not quoting or saying it's in the bible, etc.) those who take the mark are going to be well aware of what it is they are doing, to whom, etc.- I'm also thinking (and possibly taking out of context as well, lol) of the bible verse that says, "And He will send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie". I want to say that's in Revelation as well, but I would honestly have to go look- I go back to the whole "God knows our innermost heart and what motivates us", etc.- and that those who are 'deceived' are those who have...turned their back on the truth to begin with? Isn't there something else in that verse (or close by, I really need to get out my bible and find these things before I type about them, but it would just take up too much time and I would be on the computer way too long, and I KNOW there are others on here who, God Bless Them, know which verses I'm talking about already, lol) - that says something about, "So that if it were possible, it would even deceive the very elect". Now, I know, someone is going to say, "Hey, wait a minute...the 'elect' are....'insert who, here..'". What I'm trying to say, is...those who are deceived are...possibly....deceived for a reason, maybe because in their heart of hearts, they have already drawn their conclusions as to who Jesus is, and what they will do with that? I don't know. Guesstimates, here, that's all I have.

[Littlelambseativy]

1 hour ago, Diaste said:

Off topic. Just deal with the fact God's mercy and forgiveness are free to all who call upon Him at any time throughout the known universe, and to the end of time.

Unless in the case of blasphemy againt the holy Spirit, that is THE ONLY UNFORGIVABLE SIN. 

Not off topic at all. I wonder if you “really” read it as God speaking. God is patient and long suffering...but His patience has a limit as with Noah and Lot.

[Diaste]

1 hour ago, Mystic_Pizza said:

those who take the mark are going to be well aware of what it is they are doing, to whom, etc.-

Agreed. What we know is the mark is presented as 'no man may buy or sell except he has the mark'. Its not presented as a choice between God or self gratification. We understand what it means, you and I, but what about 2 billion Muslims? Or a billion Hindi? They will see it as a life line, not necessarily a choice between eternal life and rejection of the Savior of all mankind. 

This is why the first angel calls for mankind to give glory to God, and why the third angel gives the warning of doom to those who take the mark and worship the beast and his image. 

Its also why verse 13 says, "Blessed are those who die in the Lord henceforth."

Now everyone knows as the message of the first and third angel goes out to everyone. No more excuses and a last chance repent and stop actively and presently worshiping the image and relying on the mark to save your life. Even after that, during wrath, scripture says,

"but they refused to repent and glorify him."

"they refused to repent of what they had done."

Must mean there was yet a chance to repent otherwise why mention it?

As you say this life is but dust in the wind, eternal life is the will of God for us. A merciful God will give everyone every chance to repent and avoid an eternity of punishment.

God's mercy endures forever.

God is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. 

[Diaste]

2 hours ago, Littlelambseativy said:

Not off topic at all. I wonder if you “really” read it as God speaking. God is patient and long suffering...but His patience has a limit as with Noah and Lot.

Doesn't address the OP. 

Does God's mercy extend to those who have been duped into believing in the beast, or is it just for elite, pretrib western churches?

[Mystic_Pizza]

1 hour ago, Diaste said:

Agreed. What we know is the mark is presented as 'no man may buy or sell except he has the mark'. Its not presented as a choice between God or self gratification. We understand what it means, you and I, but what about 2 billion Muslims? Or a billion Hindi? They will see it as a life line, not necessarily a choice between eternal life and rejection of the Savior of all mankind. 

This is why the first angel calls for mankind to give glory to God, and why the third angel gives the warning of doom to those who take the mark and worship the beast and his image. 

Its also why verse 13 says, "Blessed are those who die in the Lord henceforth."

Now everyone knows as the message of the first and third angel goes out to everyone. No more excuses and a last chance repent and stop actively and presently worshiping the image and relying on the mark to save your life. Even after that, during wrath, scripture says,

"but they refused to repent and glorify him."

"they refused to repent of what they had done."

Must mean there was yet a chance to repent otherwise why mention it?

That is definitely something to think on. I notice that you are very in tune to the idea that God is completely merciful, and is willing to go as far as need be in order to demonstrate His unfathomable mercy, and I completely agree with you. I, on the other hand, have a 'thing' about feeling that God can see into and know the deepest thoughts, desires, and motives of our hearts, and I think maybe in my own mind, I think to myself that because there are so many people such as you said who have never even remotely heard the Gospel or know of Jesus, maybe God knows in their heart what they would do with Jesus if they DID know or hear about Him..? Maybe in this way, looking in the heart of ALL mankind, God in His infinite love, and mercy, reaches those who haven't heard of Him, in that way...? It's just a thought, and when I think of it in this way, it makes me realize and understand that God's love for us is so deep and such a beautiful mystery, that this side of heaven we'll never fully understand it.