Those Days Will Be Shortened

[WilliamL]

On 11/30/2018 at 7:14 PM, Steve Conley said:

This persecution will intensify in scope and severity in the middle of the seventieth week.

I'll pick on this particular statement, but it is only one of many such by others.

In order to presume such a 70th week in the End Times, one must prove the belief by multiple biblical witnesses. That has never been done that I have seen, and I've been in this study since 1973.

Basing one's End Times eschatology upon such a sandy foundation is not wise.

[Steve Conley]

On 12/6/2018 at 12:12 PM, WilliamL said:

I'll pick on this particular statement, but it is only one of many such by others.

In order to presume such a 70th week in the End Times, one must prove the belief by multiple biblical witnesses. That has never been done that I have seen, and I've been in this study since 1973.

Basing one's End Times eschatology upon such a sandy foundation is not wise.

Greetings to all in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

WilliamL, it is Jesus who ties the future unprecedented persecution of the elect to the middle of the seventieth week that Daniel wrote about. Christ links the beginning of the great tribulation to the defiling of the temple by the man of sin that Daniel recorded in Dan 9:27.

Mat 24:15  When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

Dan 9:27  And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

This single statement of Jesus by itself is all that is needed. The two witnesses for prophecy idea that you and a couple others continually promote is not taught in the Scriptures. Two or more witnesses were required for criminal proceedings, but a single statement of the Lord, an Apostle, or true Prophet is sufficient. There are many instances of there only being one statement concerning an event or an aspect of an event in the Holy Scriptures. A single explicit statement is all that is necessary.

You may contend that Dan 9:27 is mistranslated, but I don't believe that is the case. You may also contend that Jesus was not referring to Dan 9:27, but I will disagree with you there also. Four times in Daniel a defiling abomination is mentioned. Two of them refer to Antiochus Epiphanies in the second century BC, which was past at the time of Christ's statement.

Dan 11:31  And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.

Dan 8:13  Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?

It may be that there is a sense of double fulfilment with one or both of these texts.

The other two refer to the same event which happens in the middle of the last seven years of this age, ~3.5 years before the Beast is cast into a lake of fire.

Dan 9:27  And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Dan 12:11  And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

The Father said, "this is my beloved Son ... hear ye Him." Christ's single statement is enough.

Glory be unto Jesus Christ

 

[WilliamL]

 

On 12/14/2018 at 5:36 PM, Steve Conley said:

WilliamL, it is Jesus who ties the future unprecedented persecution of the elect to the middle of the seventieth week that Daniel wrote about. Christ links the beginning of the great tribulation to the defiling of the temple by the man of sin that Daniel recorded in Dan 9:27.

Mat 24:15  When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

Dan 9:27  And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Jesus says nothing about the Man of Sin, nor the 70th week: these are your presumptions. Sandy foundations.

Daniel 9:27 says nothing about "the abomination of desolation in the Holy Place." Not a word. Again, you are reading your presumptions into the text.

The passage of Daniel to which Jesus referred is Daniel 12:11: "the abomination of desolation is set up..." That passage has nothing to do with the 70 weeks prophecy.

On 12/14/2018 at 5:36 PM, Steve Conley said:

This single statement of Jesus by itself is all that is needed. The two witnesses for prophecy idea that you and a couple others continually promote is not taught in the Scriptures. Two or more witnesses were required for criminal proceedings, but a single statement of the Lord, an Apostle, or true Prophet is sufficient.

2 Cor. 13:1 This will be the third time I am coming to you. “By the mouth of two or three witnesses every word shall be established.”

Paul was not talking about any criminal proceeding, but about his testimony.

John 8:17 “It is also written in your law that the testimony of two men is true. 18 I am One who bears witness of Myself, and the Father who sent Me bears witness of Me.”

Jesus was not talking about any criminal proceeding, but about His testimony.

There is a reason why God sends the Two Witnesses in Revelation 11, not one. There is a reason why God sent Moses and Aaron to Pharaoh. When prophets delivered messages by themselves, they most often validated them, or had them validated, by miracles, etc. -- second witnesses.

Building any doctrine upon a single scripture is always asking for trouble.

[Steve Conley]

6 hours ago, WilliamL said:

 

Jesus says nothing about the Man of Sin, nor the 70th week: these are your presumptions. Sandy foundations.

Daniel 9:27 says nothing about "the abomination of desolation in the Holy Place." Not a word. Again, you are reading your presumptions into the text.

The passage of Daniel to which Jesus referred is Daniel 12:11: "the abomination of desolation is set up..." That passage has nothing to do with the 70 weeks prophecy.

2 Cor. 13:1 This will be the third time I am coming to you. “By the mouth of two or three witnesses every word shall be established.”

Paul was not talking about any criminal proceeding, but about his testimony.

John 8:17 “It is also written in your law that the testimony of two men is true. 18 I am One who bears witness of Myself, and the Father who sent Me bears witness of Me.”

Jesus was not talking about any criminal proceeding, but about His testimony.

There is a reason why God sends the Two Witnesses in Revelation 11, not one. There is a reason why God sent Moses and Aaron to Pharaoh. When prophets delivered messages by themselves, they most often validated them, or had them validated, by miracles, etc. -- second witnesses.

Building any doctrine upon a single scripture is always asking for trouble.

Greetings to all in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

WilliamL, the need for dual testimony is not necessary when it comes to the Holy Scriptures which were divinely given. All of the Holy Writ can be trusted, unlike individuals who would prophesy. You fail to take the context of the statements you quoted from the Scriptures into consideration.

2Co 13:1  This is the third time I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.
2Co 13:2  I told you before, and foretell you, as if I were present, the second time; and being absent now I write to them which heretofore have sinned, and to all other, that, if I come again, I will not spare:
2Co 13:3  Since ye seek a proof of Christ speaking in me, which to you-ward is not weak, but is mighty in you.

Paul is saying that they ought to believe him because he has now communicated this warning three times to them.

You misapply Christ's words when you try to teach that a prophetic statement taken from the Scriptures cannot be true unless it is mentioned at least twice.

Joh 8:17  It is also written in your law, that the testimony of two men is true.
Joh 8:18  I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me.

Jesus refers to two statements of the Law found in Deuteronomy.

Deu 17:6  At the mouth of two witnesses, or three witnesses, shall he that is worthy of death be put to death; but at the mouth of one witness he shall not be put to death.

Deu 19:15  One witness shall not rise up against a man for any iniquity, or for any sin, in any sin that he sinneth: at the mouth of two witnesses, or at the mouth of three witnesses, shall the matter be established.

Both of these teach the requirement of two or more witnesses to establish a matter before the law. Jesus is just explaining that the record that He had given of Himself along with the testimony of the Father concerning Him met the threshold of testimony necessary to establish a legal matter. It should be believed.

Concerning Dan 9:27 there is ample information within the verse to indicate that it is referring to the defiling of the rebuilt temple by the man of sin in the middle of the week causing the sacrifice and offering to cease.

Dan 9:27  And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Glory be unto Jesus Christ

 

[Montana Marv]

On 12/6/2018 at 10:12 AM, WilliamL said:

In order to presume such a 70th week in the End Times, one must prove the belief by multiple biblical witnesses. That has never been done that I have seen, and I've been in this study since 1973.

First one must prove the the 70th Week is past and completed.  If not completed, it is future.  How can there be multiple biblical witnesses according to you, when this is future.  But We do have witnesses.  Daniel, Jesus Christ, John.

Your years of study in this matter are irrelevant.  We have had Quasar92 ??? on this forum and his years of study  in this matter outshines your years of study and many of us.

One must prove the the 70th Week is complete.  If it is, then Daniel is a false prophet;  70 - Sevens are decreed.  This is the whole basis of the Prophecy for Daniels People and his Holy City to do or receive the benefits of 6 things or tasks.  If you can prove that Israel (Daniel's People) have accepted these 6  benefits, Well I would like to see it.

In Christ

Montana Marv

[Last Daze]

9 hours ago, Montana Marv said:

70 - Sevens are decreed.  This is the whole basis of the Prophecy for Daniels People and his Holy City to do or receive the benefits of 6 things or tasks. 

You're exactly right.  There's a specific time frame during which specific things are to be accomplished.  Making atonement for iniquity is one of those things to be accomplished.  Wouldn't you agree that it would need to take place during the specified time frame?  And wouldn't you also agree that Christ's death on the cross accomplished the making of atonement for sin?

The problem with a future 7 year period of time is that it causes the death of Christ to fall outside of the prophetic time frame.

• Then after the sixty-two weeks the Messiah will be cut off and have nothing.  Daniel 9:26a

Notice that the death of the Messiah takes place AFTER the sixty-two weeks.  If the 70th week is still future, that puts the death of Christ outside of the time frame of the prophecy making the stated time frame meaningless.

I did a short video that goes into a little more detail if you're interested.  You can see The Seventy Sevens here.

[Montana Marv]

12 hours ago, Last Daze said:

You're exactly right.  There's a specific time frame during which specific things are to be accomplished.  Making atonement for iniquity is one of those things to be accomplished.  Wouldn't you agree that it would need to take place during the specified time frame?  And wouldn't you also agree that Christ's death on the cross accomplished the making of atonement for sin?

The problem with a future 7 year period of time is that it causes the death of Christ to fall outside of the prophetic time frame.

• Then after the sixty-two weeks the Messiah will be cut off and have nothing.  Daniel 9:26a

Notice that the death of the Messiah takes place AFTER the sixty-two weeks.  If the 70th week is still future, that puts the death of Christ outside of the time frame of the prophecy making the stated time frame meaningless.

I did a short video that goes into a little more detail if you're interested.  You can see The Seventy Sevens here.

Yes, the death of the Messiah takes place after the 62 -Weeks, which is after the 7-Weeks. Dan 9:25 - From the issuing of the decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem, until the Anointed One, the ruler comes will be 7-Sevens and 62-Sevens. v.26 After the 62-Sevens the Anointed One will be cut off and will have nothing.  Then there is the people of the ruler to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary; (Titus in 70 AD)  Then sometime after this v. 27 - He will confirm a covenant with many for One Seven; In the middle of the Seven he will put an end to sacrifice and offering.....  All Future from 70 AD.

These are Prophetic years.  7-Sevens, 62-Sevens and a 1-Seven.  Vs.25-27 are markers establishing a time frame.  There is a beginning and an end for the 7-Sevens and 62-Sevens time frame (from the issuing of the decree to Christs Death).  Now there is a One Seven hanging out there someplace.  And by the end of this last One Seven, Israel will have fulfilled the six tasks listed in v.24  and thus fulfilling the whole of the 70 Weeks of years.  An Ungodly people and their Acceptance of the Lord their God.

Zech 12:10 - And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication.  They will look on me, the one who they have pierced.  Zech 9:16 - The Lord their God will save them on that day...  Zech 13:9c - They will call on my name, and I will answer them; I will say they are my people; and they will say The Lord is our God.  Thus fulfilling the 70 Sevens.

In Christ

Montana Marv

 

 

 

[WilliamL]

On 12/19/2018 at 8:38 PM, Montana Marv said:

One must prove the the 70th Week is complete.  If it is, then Daniel is a false prophet;  70 - Sevens are decreed.  This is the whole basis of the Prophecy for Daniels People and his Holy City to do or receive the benefits of 6 things or tasks.  If you can prove that Israel (Daniel's People) have accepted these 6  benefits, Well I would like to see it. 

 

On 12/20/2018 at 8:08 PM, Montana Marv said:

And by the end of this last One Seven, Israel will have fulfilled the six tasks listed in v.24  and thus fulfilling the whole of the 70 Weeks of years.

Long ago posted on The Prophecy Exchange:

As to verse 24, some old stuff of mine. Unable to change the text size:

Dan. 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city…    [The 70 weeks were for the remnant of Judah (Daniel’s people) and for Jerusalem, none else.]

to finish the transgression/peshah…     [The word means and refers to the revolt/rebellion/apostasy of the priesthood, the one originally spoken of in Daniel 8:12, 13, 23. This took place when Antiochus Epiphanes, after being bribed, removed the pious Onias III from the high priesthood and installed his apostatizing brother Jason; latter 170s B.C. 1 Macc. 2:15 calls the subsequent debasement of the priesthood and Temple “the apostasy” [apostasian]. Similar corruptions of the priesthood, including bribes, took place during the time of Roman rule. Jesus condemned it, and prophesied the desolation of the religious establishment and destruction of Jerusalem and Temple because of it:

Matt. 23:29 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! ... 35 ...upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36 Truly I tell you, all this will come on this generation. ... 38 Behold, your house [i.e. the Temple] is left to you desolate."

Luke 21:20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. ... 22 “For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled."

And where were these things written about the desolations of Jerusalem and its Temple? Nowhere else but in Daniel 9:26-27. ]

 

and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness…    [All accomplished by the Crucifixion and Resurrection.]

and to close up vision and prophecy…    [Matt. 11:13: “For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.” Luke 16:16: “The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presses into it.” OT prophecy – that of Daniel’s people – ended at John the Baptist. OT prophets had the Holy Spirit “come upon” them. Beginning at John, prophets were “filled with” it. The former phrase is never used by the NT, and the latter never by the OT.]

and to anoint the Most Holy.    [= Jesus. He received his initial anointing of the Holy Spirit after being baptized by John. Then became the anointed Melchizedek High Priest of the heavenly sanctuary.]

 

[WilliamL]

From the same Forum:

So here are my bottom line take-aways from this subject:

1) Daniel 9:24-27 provides an accurate summary of events in Judea from the First Coming of the Messiah up to the destruction of the Temple. It doesn’t mention at all

– any abomination of desolation of the Holy Place;

– the time of the end/latter time/latter days, or any similar term;

– the Great Tribulation/time of trouble such as never was;

– the saints, or any flight of God’s people;

– Messiah’s coming in the clouds, Divine Judgment, and/or the establishment of God’s kingdom;

– the coming prince’s demise;

– or the raising of the dead.

These topics are discussed elsewhere in Daniel’s End Time prophecies. Why not here? In my opinion, because this is not a prophecy for the end of Church Age, but rather for the end of the Jewish Age.

Marv, you and others have not supplied a single statement from this passage from Daniel that unequivocally must refer to the End Times. All you provide is your presumptions injected into the text.

As I have said over and over again, anyone who builds their foundations upon unsubstantiated presumptions, upon eisegesis, is building upon a sandy foundation.

[WilliamL]

On 12/19/2018 at 8:15 PM, Steve Conley said:

Concerning Dan 9:27 there is ample information within the verse to indicate that it is referring to the defiling of the rebuilt temple

by the man of sin in the middle of the week causing the sacrifice and offering to cease.

Only if you insert those things in... It's called eisegesis.