God's sovereign choice

[wingnut-]

In a recent conversation, the topic of God's will came up, and I was asked for my thoughts after posting a segment of this chapter.  I was unable to respond before the thread was locked, but after talking with George and making sure I wasn't stepping on any toes, I would like to address the question here.  @Cletus @Butero

 

Romans 9:14 What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! 15 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.

19 You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” 20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?”21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— 24 even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?

 

My thought process begins with Paul's question regarding injustice.  For there to be justice or injustice, there must be evidence that is weighed to reach either conclusion.  This is where God's foreknowledge enters the picture.  When we consider that God not only knows what we do or say, but what we think, and what is truly in a person's heart, then the picture becomes less fuzzy.

God's elect, are chosen on what basis?  In scripture, the elect are often referred to as the Bride.  So we can look to the scriptures regarding God's definition of marriage, and what His expectations are for both the husband and the wife.

 

Ephesians 5:22 Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord. 23 For the husband is the head of the wife even as Christ is the head of the church, his body, and is himself its Savior. 24 Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit in everything to their husbands.

25 Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her, 26 that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, 27 so that he might present the church to himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish. 28 In the same way husbands should love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself.

 

Jesus has perfectly filled the role of the husband, and in order for anyone to qualify as one of the elect, they must fulfill the role of the wife.  Submission to God is the key to all of this.  God knows each person, and He knows who has the capacity to submit, and who does not.  Submission is one of those topics that draws two responses, agreement, or withdrawal.  As we speak, this world is full of people who object just to the mere mention of this word, and will argue tooth and nail against this biblical concept which not only applies to everyday life for families, but more importantly to our relationship with the Lord.

It is not open to debate, it is God's will.  If the idea of submission offends you, then you have some serious issues to work through with God, because He requires it.  God is looking for a faithful bride, one that will love Him as He deserves to be loved.  He chooses those who have the capacity and heart to love Him, this is His elect.

God does not create people to destroy them, people destroy themselves because they love themselves more than they love God, and for this reason they will not relinquish the illusion of control and submit to God.  Notice what is said in verse 22 from Romans 9.

 

Romans 9:22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,

 

God has endured with much patience, what does that mean to you?  To me, it is an illustration of what is said elsewhere in scripture, that God wants none to perish, so He is patient with all, but not all will love Him in return.  They are vessels of wrath because of their rejection, and they were not created for destruction, they are prepared for it by their own actions.  This is summarized in scripture as well.

 

Romans 1:19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. 21 For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened.

 

Romans 1:24 Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, 25 because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen.

 

Romans 1:28 And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done. 29 They were filled with all manner of unrighteousness, evil, covetousness, malice. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, maliciousness. They are gossips,30 slanderers, haters of God, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, 31 foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless.32 Though they know God's righteous decree that those who practice such things deserve to die, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them.

 

These excerpts from Romans 1 display the difference in God creating someone for destruction, or allowing someone the freewill to destroy themselves.  They do so because they lack the capacity to truly love anyone other than themselves and their fleshly desires.  So God gives them over to their desires, and they prepare themselves for destruction.

What more can God do to present Himself as the perfect husband than what He has already done?  The answer is nothing.  This verse sums it up best I think.

 

Matthew 6:21  For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.

 

God bless

[Still Alive]

This may end up being THE story of 2019:

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/lists-of-priests-accused-of-sexual-abuse-are-spilling-out-across-the-country/ar-BBQWe9N

[Uber Genius]

Too many analogies here. I found the analysis confusing.

It seems that the best way to engage the various theories that explain the data of sovereignty, God's will, human free will, election, predestination, etc. is by a textual analysis of passages related to those categories. We would be careful to wash the data, that is make sure that the genre, structure, context were accounted for so as not to read in data in the text that wasn't there. 

We would then examine the available inferences for explanatory depth and breadth:

Calvinism

Arminianism

Molinism 

Open Theism

others 

You would want to do this in the Outer Court as Open Theism asserts that God doesn't know future events, which has not be the traditional Christian position (see statement of beliefs or talk to George and get his opinion).

A book that might help see these inferences defended is:

https://www.amazon.com/Four-Views-Divine-Providence-Counterpoints/dp/0310325129/ref=pd_lpo_sbs_14_img_1?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=6T9FQYV5BP7T0WDE06F7

Edited December 14, 2018 by Uber Genius

[Guest Butero]

If God creates someone knowing all they will ever do, how is he not creating them to ultimately destroy them?  Look at Judas Iscariot.  God created him knowing that Judas would be the betrayer of the Lord.  What about Pharaoh?  God created him knowing he would be the man that would oppose Moses.  This is an awful fine line, even if you don't want to say they were created to be ultimately destroyed.   They do make their own choices, but God created them knowing how they would behave every single day of their lives.  

[George]

Just now, Butero said:

If God creates someone knowing all they will ever do, how is he not creating them to ultimately destroy them?  Look at Judas Iscariot.  God created him knowing that Judas would be the betrayer of the Lord.  What about Pharaoh?  God created him knowing he would be the man that would oppose Moses.  This is an awful fine line, even if you don't want to say they were created to be ultimately destroyed.   They do make their own choices, but God created them knowing how they would behave every single day of their lives.  

So did God create evil?  Obviously not!  What is evil in essence ... it's the absence of good!  God created all things with a choice ... a free will ... a will to choose good ... or the absence of doing good hence the word evil!   Does cold exist?  Yes ... what is being cold ... the absence of heat!  Does evil exist?  Yes ... it's the absence of God!   While God foreknew ... he didn't for-choose their fates.  For-knowing ... is not the same as For-choosing!

[George]

 

[Guest Butero]

33 minutes ago, George said:

So did God create evil?  Obviously not!  What is evil in essence ... it's the absence of good!  God created all things with a choice ... a free will ... a will to choose good ... or the absence of doing good hence the word evil!   Does cold exist?  Yes ... what is being cold ... the absence of heat!  Does evil exist?  Yes ... it's the absence of God!   While God foreknew ... he didn't for-choose their fates.  For-knowing ... is not the same as For-choosing!

Yes and no.  He created Lucifer with hidden iniquity on the inside.  It was discovered later, but it had to be part of his makeup all along.  He was able to be perfect in his behavior for a time, but the true nature eventually came out.  

Lets turn this around.  What is good?  Is it the absence of evil?  

Edited December 14, 2018 by Butero

[George]

18 minutes ago, Butero said:

He created Lucifer with hidden iniquity on the inside.  It was discovered later, but it had to be part of his makeup all along.  He was able to be perfect in his behavior for a time, but the true nature eventually came out.  

How can God create Lucifer with iniquity.  This is a very flawed understanding of God.  In Him there is NO DARKNESS!  To say that He created Lucifer with iniquity ... is to say He created Lucifer to sin.  This is very un-biblical.

1 John 1:5  This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

[George]

Eze 28:13  Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created. 
Eze 28:14  Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. 
Eze 28:15  Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee. 
Eze 28:16  By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire. 
Eze 28:17  Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee. 
Eze 28:18  Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee. 
Eze 28:19  All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more. 

 

Eze 28:13  You were in Eden, the garden of God; every precious stone was your covering, sardius, topaz, and diamond, beryl, onyx, and jasper, sapphire, emerald, and carbuncle; and crafted in gold were your settings and your engravings. On the day that you were created they were prepared. 
Eze 28:14  You were an anointed guardian cherub. I placed you; you were on the holy mountain of God; in the midst of the stones of fire you walked. 
Eze 28:15  You were blameless in your ways from the day you were created, till unrighteousness was found in you. 
Eze 28:16  In the abundance of your trade you were filled with violence in your midst, and you sinned; so I cast you as a profane thing from the mountain of God, and I destroyed you, O guardian cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire. 
Eze 28:17  Your heart was proud because of your beauty; you corrupted your wisdom for the sake of your splendor. I cast you to the ground; I exposed you before kings, to feast their eyes on you. 
Eze 28:18  By the multitude of your iniquities, in the unrighteousness of your trade you profaned your sanctuaries; so I brought fire out from your midst; it consumed you, and I turned you to ashes on the earth in the sight of all who saw you. 
Eze 28:19  All who know you among the peoples are appalled at you; you have come to a dreadful end and shall be no more forever.” 

[Guest Butero]

1 minute ago, George said:

How can God create Lucifer with iniquity.  This is a very flawed understanding of God.  In Him there is NO DARKNESS!  To say that He created Lucifer with iniquity ... is to say He created Lucifer to sin.  This is very un-biblical.

1 John 1:5  This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

When God created Lucifer, do you believe he knew one day he would rebel, or did it take God by surprise?  The video you posted has a man saying God uses demons and evil to accomplish his purposes.  

Here is something to consider.  If it is just about free will, and the devil created iniquity out of thin air, meaning so could any Christian after getting to heaven.  That means a million years from now, a Christian can rebel and get kicked out of heaven.  Talk about no security!