The future

[backontrack]

On ‎1‎/‎29‎/‎2019 at 7:20 PM, Shilohsfoal said:

Unbelieving Israelis are not led away captive untill the coming of our Lord.Not before.

https://biblehub.com/zechariah/14-5.htm

 

As for Israel becoming becoing great.You say it doesnt sound great to you.

Tell me this.Did not the Israeli goverment defeat three larger kingdoms and gain control of the seven hilled city of Jerusalem in no more than 6 days?

https://biblehub.com/daniel/7-24.htm

As for the daily sacrifice.I fully expect it shall be abolished within two years.A host shallbe given to israel and the sacrifice shallbe abolished.

https://biblehub.com/kjv/daniel/8-12.htm

 

 

144,000 will never be taken control of they are all in control chosen by God do not know about the rest of it.

[Shilohsfoal]

22 minutes ago, backontrack said:

144,000 will never be taken control of they are all in control chosen by God do not know about the rest of it.

144000 

That about 2 percent of Israels population?

Thats about the same percentage as the christian population in israel.

 

[Retrobyter]

17 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Not at all: I was just curious. You can send digs or pokes at me all you wish: I have Rhino skin. 

It is not stubbornness: it is when I look at the EXPERTS who have translated these verses - people expert enough to translate the entire bible, they disagree with your translation. Sorry, but I will go with them every time.  I can only ask: who are you? Where is your bible translation?

By the way, stubbornness is good when you are right and someone is trying to convince you to believe an error. It is an absolute fact: your translation of Daniel does not fit Revelation. Revelation is a much later revelation and it is much more complete. Wisdom decrees we form out doctrine from the most complete revelation, then fill in missing pieces from lessor scriptures. The truth is, the 70th week is IN the book of Revelation, proving your take on Daniel is a myth. 

Flawlessly? Another myth. Oh, may well be true in your mind! 

Just so you can know, and have no excuse: the 70th week in Revelation is marked by 7's: the 7th seal starts the week, the 7th vial ends the week, and the 7th trumpet marks the midpoint. There it is, clearly laid out and marked. But you won't believe it for your preconceptions will not allow it.

Shalom, iamlamad.

I'm not trying to get under your Rhino skin; I just don't want to see you write off an idea simply because it doesn't square with your position. There's nothing worse than a closed mind. That's all. It's good to know what you believe and why you believe it, but it's also a VIRTUE to remember that "you could be wrong" on some points.

Who am I? I'm basically a nobody, just another blessed child of a VERY GRACIOUS God. I'm a "layman" who has been a Sunday School teacher (who's taught through the book of Revelation in the Greek, btw), a song leader, a singer, a teacher in a Christian H.S., and a deacon at one point, but have never been an ordained minister. God wasn't leading my life in that direction, even though I attended a Bible college for four years (one that taught pretribulational rapturism and accepted no other position). My spiritual gift is teaching, but it is NOT administration.

I've been a computer programmer and a mathematician and a computer consultant, and I've studied computer engineering and data processing, knowing several computer programming languages. I have a very logical and analytical mind and am gifted both in mathematics and language (as the mathematics of communication), and have been so ever since I said to my mother at the age of 3, "I'm going to sleep down now." When asked what I meant, I said, "Wake up; sleep down!" 

However, like an Indian scout, I have "my ear to the ground," so to speak, to hear what the Lord might be saying to me.

Where is my Bible translation? Well, I'll tell ya. It's coming in pieces, a passage of Scripture at a time. If it wasn't for David Stern, I would have given up on the idea long ago. But if one man can do what he did with the Complete Jewish Bible, I have hope again.

I work during the day at a mundane job, and post in the evenings and on weekends, when I can. I'm 61 years old, and I can hardly wait for another 4.5 years to go by so I can retire and focus on my books. I'm an aspiring writer, but to date, you won't find any of my work published. It's that "wall of paper mache" that I haven't been able to punch through, yet.

I'm an undocumented Jew through my mother, a German by heritage, and a Messianic Jew by choice.

Now, I know from PERSONAL experience that the Ruwach haQodesh (the Holy Spirit) reveals things to people in different orders on purpose. No one learns things in quite the same order. And, you should complete the statement: "Stubbornness is good when you are right, IF you are right, and someone is trying to convince you to believe an error, and you CAN be sure and are ABSOLUTELY SURE that it IS INDEED an error."

God led me to study the prophecies of the TANAKH (Torah, Navi'im, and Ketuviym; Instruction, Prophets, and Writings; the OT) LONG before including Revelation. See, much of Revelation contains quotations from the OT prophecies. The only way to understand Revelation truly, imo, is to have the background of the OT prophecies firmly in place before attempting its study (OR at least, that was true for me).

Actually, only half of the 70th Seven is in Revelation, and that is what I would suspect, although I don't call the 70th Seven or any part of it the "tribulation." How you determine the WHOLE of the Seven starting with the 7the seal is beyond me. The text NEVER gives that indication. I think you're seeing things you want to see. Nevertheless, if you have proof, you may not believe me, but I'm all ears. (You've got to do better than say it's "marked by 7's.")

[Retrobyter]

6 hours ago, iamlamad said:

By the way, just so I am not misunderstood: quoting the bible is a good thing. But quoting two verses together AS IF they were meant to be together (when in reality they are not) is often done in these threads. Quoting scripture and then writing a false premise as to what the verse means also is done frequently.  Shall I give an example? Quoting the gathering in Matthew 24 and then quoting 1 Thes. 4:17 beside it - as if they are speaking of the same event - that is a no no. 

Shalom, iamlamad.

Not if they ARE the same event! Could you be irrationally biased AGAINST the probability that they are the same event?

Matthew 24:29-31 (KJV)

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven (of the sky) with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels (messengers) with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds (compass directions), from one end (the lower end) of heaven (of the sky) to the other (the upper end).

1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 (KJV)

13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent (precede) them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven (from the sky) with a shout, with the voice of the archangel (chief messenger), and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

(And, to be thorough, we should also bring in Mark 13:24-27 and Luke 21:25-28, since they are two different perspectives of the same discourse.) 

First, of course, the "Son of man" is the "Lord." We make that connection readily. We also admit that Yeshua` the Messiah ("Jesus the Christ") is that "Son of man" and our "Lord."

The second connection that should be readily seen is that "Christ" means "Messiah." Both are transliterations of their respective languages that mean the same thing: "Christ" is an English transliteration of the Greek word "Christos," and "Messiah" is an English transliteration of the Hebrew word "Mashiyach," and both words mean the "Anointed [One]." This begs the question, "Are we sure that the children of Israel cannot be among the 'dead in Christ,' which means the 'dead in the Messiah?' THEIR OWN Jewish Messiah?" Why do we divorce the term "Christ" from its origin, "Messiah," to the point of saying that it cannot be about the children of Israel, especially the Jews, Yeshua`s own tribe? We often do the same thing with the word "elect!" I've actually heard Christians declare that the word "elect" ONLY refers to Christians!

Third, neither one of these passages says ANYTHING about "going to Heaven" instead of staying on earth! You only write them off as being the same event simply because of the rhetoric of your position. That's not good enough.

[iamlamad]

19 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, iamlamad.

I'm not trying to get under your Rhino skin; I just don't want to see you write off an idea simply because it doesn't square with your position. There's nothing worse than a closed mind. That's all. It's good to know what you believe and why you believe it, but it's also a VIRTUE to remember that "you could be wrong" on some points.

Who am I? I'm basically a nobody, just another blessed child of a VERY GRACIOUS God. I'm a "layman" who has been a Sunday School teacher (who's taught through the book of Revelation in the Greek, btw), a song leader, a singer, a teacher in a Christian H.S., and a deacon at one point, but have never been an ordained minister. God wasn't leading my life in that direction, even though I attended a Bible college for four years (one that taught pretribulational rapturism and accepted no other position). My spiritual gift is teaching, but it is NOT administration.

I've been a computer programmer and a mathematician and a computer consultant, and I've studied computer engineering and data processing, knowing several computer programming languages. I have a very logical and analytical mind and am gifted both in mathematics and language (as the mathematics of communication), and have been so ever since I said to my mother at the age of 3, "I'm going to sleep down now." When asked what I meant, I said, "Wake up; sleep down!" 

However, like an Indian scout, I have "my ear to the ground," so to speak, to hear what the Lord might be saying to me.

Where is my Bible translation? Well, I'll tell ya. It's coming in pieces, a passage of Scripture at a time. If it wasn't for David Stern, I would have given up on the idea long ago. But if one man can do what he did with the Complete Jewish Bible, I have hope again.

I work during the day at a mundane job, and post in the evenings and on weekends, when I can. I'm 61 years old, and I can hardly wait for another 4.5 years to go by so I can retire and focus on my books. I'm an aspiring writer, but to date, you won't find any of my work published. It's that "wall of paper mache" that I haven't been able to punch through, yet.

I'm an undocumented Jew through my mother, a German by heritage, and a Messianic Jew by choice.

Now, I know from PERSONAL experience that the Ruwach haQodesh (the Holy Spirit) reveals things to people in different orders on purpose. No one learns things in quite the same order. And, you should complete the statement: "Stubbornness is good when you are right, IF you are right, and someone is trying to convince you to believe an error, and you CAN be sure and are ABSOLUTELY SURE that it IS INDEED an error."

God led me to study the prophecies of the TANAKH (Torah, Navi'im, and Ketuviym; Instruction, Prophets, and Writings; the OT) LONG before including Revelation. See, much of Revelation contains quotations from the OT prophecies. The only way to understand Revelation truly, imo, is to have the background of the OT prophecies firmly in place before attempting its study (OR at least, that was true for me).

Actually, only half of the 70th Seven is in Revelation, and that is what I would suspect, although I don't call the 70th Seven or any part of it the "tribulation." How you determine the WHOLE of the Seven starting with the 7the seal is beyond me. The text NEVER gives that indication. I think you're seeing things you want to see. Nevertheless, if you have proof, you may not believe me, but I'm all ears. (You've got to do better than say it's "marked by 7's.")

It is very simple: God spoke, and I listened. I heard His voice and His words. First He said I could find "that exact midpoint clearly marked in the book of Revelation."  (I had been reading Daniel 9:27 and when my eyes and my mind got to the word "midst" He spoke. After telling me HOW to find that exact midpoint, He said - as an afterthought -  that I could find the entire 70th week "clearly marked."  When He said that, I got a download of information without words: suddenly I knew why I could find the entire 70th week clearly marked: God used the same marker for the beginning and ending as He used for the midpoint!

Now, you can learn from this, or you can write it  off: it is up to you.  I will add this thought: If there is only 3.5 years or half the week written in Revelation, as many suppose, what Jesus spoke to me would be error.  There would not be an "exact midpoint." And there wouldn't be anyone fleeing at that midpoint as 12:6 tells us. Remember, Jesus told them to flee the moment they see the abomination.  Daniel tells us that some event would divide the week into two halves.  Paul gives us a strong hint: the man of sin will enter the temple and declare he is God.

To be truthful, I did not want to study Revelation.  My older brother tried to get me interested years before. But when God told me to study Revelation, I obeyed.  I read nothing but End times scriptures for 3 years, over and over and over and over. I knew that if I did this, while praying much in the Spirit, I would hear from heaven.  Him telling me I could find that exact midpoint was the start. There was much more.

I do have a question for you: How can an event divide a week into two halves if there is only a half to divide? 

[Retrobyter]

4 hours ago, iamlamad said:

It is very simple: God spoke, and I listened. I heard His voice and His words. First He said I could find "that exact midpoint clearly marked in the book of Revelation."  (I had been reading Daniel 9:27 and when my eyes and my mind got to the word "midst" He spoke. After telling me HOW to find that exact midpoint, He said - as an afterthought -  that I could find the entire 70th week "clearly marked."  When He said that, I got a download of information without words: suddenly I knew why I could find the entire 70th week clearly marked: God used the same marker for the beginning and ending as He used for the midpoint!

Now, you can learn from this, or you can write it  off: it is up to you.  I will add this thought: If there is only 3.5 years or half the week written in Revelation, as many suppose, what Jesus spoke to me would be error.  There would not be an "exact midpoint." And there wouldn't be anyone fleeing at that midpoint as 12:6 tells us. Remember, Jesus told them to flee the moment they see the abomination.  Daniel tells us that some event would divide the week into two halves.  Paul gives us a strong hint: the man of sin will enter the temple and declare he is God.

To be truthful, I did not want to study Revelation.  My older brother tried to get me interested years before. But when God told me to study Revelation, I obeyed.  I read nothing but End times scriptures for 3 years, over and over and over and over. I knew that if I did this, while praying much in the Spirit, I would hear from heaven.  Him telling me I could find that exact midpoint was the start. There was much more.

I do have a question for you: How can an event divide a week into two halves if there is only a half to divide? 

Shalom, iamlamad.

I'll be honest with you: I never have trusted someone who says they have "heard God's voice and His words." I believe that God speaks to us through His Word and through His Ruwach haQodesh (His Holy Spirit) within us, not verbally or audibly.

My father, a Baptist minister, used to warn people against "hearing voices," citing examples of demonic influence. He used to tell us of his efforts against a demon-possessed man who told of the voices telling him to do certain things and how that, one day, he couldn't find his keys. When my dad asked where he last saw his keys, he said they were floating across the room and crashed into the wall. That's where they found his keys, on the floor beneath a damaged wall!

Another minister told us of a man who was possessed with MANY demons and he kept rocking back and forth saying, "Jesus is the center. Jesus is the center....." When asked what their names were, he learned that the coordinating demon in this man was named "Jesus." The name is NOT unique, nor is it "off-limits!"

My point is that a voice, claiming to be God, that speaks audibly to a person may be counterfeited! It is NOT a conclusive argument. ANY voice that speaks to a person should be verified to be EXACTLY conformable to the Scriptures! If something said doesn't match with the Bible, it's not the Bible that's wrong, y'know!

HaSatan and his minions are always attempting to deceive by mimicking God. Thus, such deception must always be suspected and guarded against, regardless how real it seems or how "spiritual" it feels!

The "time, times, and half a time" is the second half of the 70th Seven, but it is NOT a "tribulation."

[Shilohsfoal]

8 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, iamlamad.

I'll be honest with you: I never have trusted someone who says they have "heard God's voice and His words." I believe that God speaks to us through His Word and through His Ruwach haQodesh (His Holy Spirit) within us, not verbally or audibly.

My father, a Baptist minister, used to warn people against "hearing voices," citing examples of demonic influence. He used to tell us of his efforts against a demon-possessed man who told of the voices telling him to do certain things and how that, one day, he couldn't find his keys. When my dad asked where he last saw his keys, he said they were floating across the room and crashed into the wall. That's where they found his keys, on the floor beneath a damaged wall!

Another minister told us of a man who was possessed with MANY demons and he kept rocking back and forth saying, "Jesus is the center. Jesus is the center....." When asked what their names were, he learned that the coordinating demon in this man was named "Jesus." The name is NOT unique, nor is it "off-limits!"

My point is that a voice, claiming to be God, that speaks audibly to a person may be counterfeited! It is NOT a conclusive argument. ANY voice that speaks to a person should be verified to be EXACTLY conformable to the Scriptures! If something said doesn't match with the Bible, it's not the Bible that's wrong, y'know!

HaSatan and his minions are always attempting to deceive by mimicking God. Thus, such deception must always be suspected and guarded against, regardless how real it seems or how "spiritual" it feels!

The "time, times, and half a time" is the second half of the 70th Seven, but it is NOT a "tribulation."

What iamlamad said is in the bible.It matches almost perfectly word for word.

So you have never heard his voice?

[Retrobyter]

8 hours ago, Shilohsfoal said:

What iamlamad said is in the bible.It matches almost perfectly word for word.

So you have never heard his voice?

Shalom, Shilohsfoal.

Nope. And, I'm okay with that. I strongly suspect that those who THINK they've audibly heard His voice really haven't. Either they've heard the voice of an actor in their head (close to an hallucination), or they were addressed by an angel, either a messenger from God OR a demon pretending to speak for God. And, HOW ARE YOU GOING TO KNOW THE DIFFERENCE?!

I should have added that haSatan used the Scriptures when tempting our Lord in the wilderness. He KNOWS God's Word, and twists it to deceive anyone and everyone! As Yeshua` said, "he is a liar, and the father of it!" (John 8:44.)

Now, I'm not calling iamlamad a liar, but he MAY be on the receiving end! He may be deceived! I believe I was when I believed in pretribulational rapturism.

Edited February 20, 2019 by Retrobyter
to add a thought.

[Shilohsfoal]

17 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, Shilohsfoal.

Nope. And, I'm okay with that. I strongly suspect that those who THINK they've audibly heard His voice really haven't. Either they've heard the voice of an actor in their head (close to an hallucination), or they were addressed by an angel, either a messenger from God OR a demon pretending to speak for God. And, HOW ARE YOU GOING TO KNOW THE DIFFERENCE?!

 

Because you know him.

Like i said,he nearly quoted the bible word for word.

[simplejeff]

On 2/18/2019 at 6:40 PM, Shilohsfoal said:

144000 

That about 2 percent of Israels population?

Thats about the same percentage as the christian population in israel.

 

Two to five percent in any country is hopeful,  and maybe optimistic too.