There are two different horse Riders of Revelation.

[Marilyn C]

30 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

Sorry, Spock, but the  Old Testament saints got redeemed right along with the New Testament saints: Jesus took the sins of the world, not just those in the New Covenant.  Were there "tribes" in the Old Testament times? (Remember, the elders might even be before the flood!) Were there languages? Where there peoples and nations? 

OK, You tell us who YOU think they are.

 

Is it possible there was some TIME after Jesus rose before He was found "worthy? Perhaps that vision of the throne room was actually AFTER He had risen from the dead, but not yet ascended and not yet found worthy. If so, the problem is solved: they are the very ones Jesus raised from the dead when He rose.

You have a problem: why was Jesus not found worthy in that first search?

Why was Jesus not seen in the throne room?

Why was the Holy Spirit still there?

Hi imlamad,

Dear bro, you know God`s word, for it tells us where Jesus went after He ascended. He went to the father`s right hand which is far above all of the created order. The angels were told to look in heaven, earth and under the earth, and that is the created order. However Jesus was taken to the Father`s right hand.

`...when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the RIGHT HAND OF THE MAJESTY ON HIGH.` (Heb. 1: 2) 

Marilyn.

[Marilyn C]

30 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

Marilyn, it is the CONTEXT: what we read in chapters 4 and 5.  Why was Jesus NOT seen at the right hand of the FAther?
Why was the Holy Spirit there in the throne room when one would think He should have been sent down (chapter 4)

What was "no man found" in that first search John  watched that ended in failure?

Hi imlamad,

Dear bro, you know God`s word, for it tells us where Jesus went after He ascended. He went to the father`s right hand which is far above all of the created order. The angels were told to look in heaven, earth and under the earth, and that is the created order. However Jesus was taken to the Father`s right hand.

`...when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the RIGHT HAND OF THE MAJESTY ON HIGH.` (Heb. 1: 2) 

Marilyn.

[iamlamad]

Just now, Marilyn C said:

Hi imlamad,

Dear bro, you know God`s word, for it tells us where Jesus went after He ascended. He went to the father`s right hand which is far above all of the created order. The angels were told to look in heaven, earth and under the earth, and that is the created order. However Jesus was taken to the Father`s right hand.

`...when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the RIGHT HAND OF THE MAJESTY ON HIGH.` (Heb. 1: 2) 

Marilyn.

Yes, we have more than a dozen verses telling us that. But yet, John was called up to heaven around 95 AD. One would expect He should have seen Jesus at the right hand off God - but He did not. Jesus was not there, because this was a VISION  - and a vision of John's past. John was seeing the throne room while Jesus was on earth. This is proven three times, yes, even four times.

[Marilyn C]

27 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

Yes, we have more than a dozen verses telling us that. But yet, John was called up to heaven around 95 AD. One would expect He should have seen Jesus at the right hand off God - but He did not. Jesus was not there, because this was a VISION  - and a vision of John's past. John was seeing the throne room while Jesus was on earth. This is proven three times, yes, even four times.

Hi iamlamad,

When John saw the visions of revelation it was the unveiling, (revelation) of the Son of Man as He is known in the heavenly realms. The Apostle John saw the Lord Empowered in the first vision. The sight was so glorious and awesome that John fell on His face. This is when the Lord ascended. And you know He went to the Father`s  right hand which is ABOVE all of the created order. God is beyond anything He made. The Godhead is not visible, it is not anywhere angels or men can venture.

The purpose of the search was to show that no one on earth, or under the earth or even in heaven, was Worthy, ONLY God is worthy, and the Lord Jesus Christ is both Son of Man and Son of God.

Marilyn.

[iamlamad]

Just now, Marilyn C said:

Hi iamlamad,

When John saw the visions of revelation it was the unveiling, (revelation) of the Son of Man as He is known in the heavenly realms. The Apostle John saw the Lord Empowered in the first vision. The sight was so glorious and awesome that John fell on His face. This is when the Lord ascended. And you know He went to the Father`s  right hand which is ABOVE all of the created order. God is beyond anything He made. The Godhead is not visible, it is not anywhere angels or men can venture.

The purpose of the search was to show that no one on earth, or under the earth or even in heaven, was Worthy, ONLY God is worthy, and the Lord Jesus Christ is both Son of Man and Son of God.

Marilyn.

This is when the Lord ascended.  Oh, really? Show us scripture! 

Jesus appeared to John (Chapter 1) around 95 AD according to church tradition.

it is not anywhere angels or men can venture.  Where do you get these ideas from? God the father is always seen on the throne in the throne room. Both people and angels have access to the throne and the throne room.

ONLY God is worthy  Wrong again! Only a MAN who could raise from the dead became worthy. John said, "no MAN was found." The angels were searching for a MAN. Yes, we know GOD was the life force inside that man. 

[Spock]

21 minutes ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi imlamad,

Dear bro, you know God`s word, for it tells us where Jesus went after He ascended. He went to the father`s right hand which is far above all of the created order. The angels were told to look in heaven, earth and under the earth, and that is the created order. However Jesus was taken to the Father`s right hand.

`...when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the RIGHT HAND OF THE MAJESTY ON HIGH.` (Heb. 1: 2) 

Marilyn.

Marilyn,

wait a minute....if Jesus already ascended and was at the fathers right hand how come he wasn’t there in Rev 4 and 5 at the throne. The Father was there, but no Son.  Jesus came later on to take the scroll out of the fathers hand. 

So why wasn’t jesus there? LA’s explanation makes sense to me (he is on Earth).  

Please explain....

Edited March 1, 2019 by Spock

[Spock]

38 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

Sorry, Spock, but the  Old Testament saints got redeemed right along with the New Testament saints: Jesus took the sins of the world, not just those in the New Covenant.  Were there "tribes" in the Old Testament times? (Remember, the elders might even be before the flood!) Were there languages? Where there peoples and nations? 

OK, You tell us who YOU think they are.

 

Is it possible there was some TIME after Jesus rose before He was found "worthy? Perhaps that vision of the throne room was actually AFTER He had risen from the dead, but not yet ascended and not yet found worthy. If so, the problem is solved: they are the very ones Jesus raised from the dead when He rose.

 

The concern and question I have, still hoping you would provide my answer, is this:

How could the representatives of the true church be there (24 elders) when the Savior isn’t even there (still on Earth)?  If he just got there in Rev 5:6, how did the 24 elders get there in Rev 4:4.....BEFORE JESUS GOT THERE. 

[Marilyn C]

30 minutes ago, Spock said:

Marilyn,

wait a minute....if Jesus already ascended and was at the fathers right hand how come he wasn’t there in Rev 3 and 4 at the throne. The Father was there, but no Son. 

So why wasn’t jesus there? LA’s explanation makes sense to me (he is on Earth).  

Please explain....

Hi Spock,

Rev. 4 is the second vision of the Son of Man as He is Enthoned in the heavenly realms. The throne is set up by the Father (Rev. 4: 2 `behold, a throne SET in heaven,..`  for the Father appoints His Son as King, (Ps, 2: 6 `..I have set My King on my holy hill of Zion.` )

Jesus is identified on the throne with the Father - `...in the midst of the throne....` (Rev. 5: 6)

And that is the closest we get to ever `seeing` the Godhead, (Father, Son and 7 fold Spirit of God).

The Thronal authority is described in beautiful symbolic detail –

(Jewels – Ex. 28: 17 – 21  Tribes – Num. 2)

 

Conqueror – jasper (for Naphtali, Gen: 30:8) meaning to gain the victory, to conquer.

Power & Dominion – sardius (for Judah, Gen. 29: 35) meaning to use the hand, indicating power & dominion.

Heir – emerald, (for Reuben, Gen. 29: 32) meaning see a son – first born.

Covenant – rainbow, (Gen. 9: 13)

Administration – four living creatures, lion (King), calf (sacrifice, heir) man (mediator), eagle (deity).

 

Marilyn.

 

[Marilyn C]

26 minutes ago, Spock said:

The concern and question I have, still hoping you would provide my answer, is this:

How could the representatives of the true church be there (24 elders) when the Savior isn’t even there (still on Earth)?  If he just got there in Rev 5:6, how did the 24 elders get there in Rev 4:4.....BEFORE JESUS GOT THERE. 

Excellent question there bro.

[Spock]

7 minutes ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Spock,

Rev. 4 is the second vision of the Son of Man as He is Enthoned in the heavenly realms. The throne is set up by the Father (Rev. 4: 2 `behold, a throne SET in heaven,..`  for the Father appoints His Son as King, (Ps, 2: 6 `..I have set My King on my holy hill of Zion.` )

Jesus is identified on the throne with the Father - `...in the midst of the throne....` (Rev. 5: 6)

And that is the closest we get to ever `seeing` the Godhead, (Father, Son and 7 fold Spirit of God).

The Thronal authority is described in beautiful symbolic detail –

(Jewels – Ex. 28: 17 – 21  Tribes – Num. 2)

 

Conqueror – jasper (for Naphtali, Gen: 30:8) meaning to gain the victory, to conquer.

Power & Dominion – sardius (for Judah, Gen. 29: 35) meaning to use the hand, indicating power & dominion.

Heir – emerald, (for Reuben, Gen. 29: 32) meaning see a son – first born.

Covenant – rainbow, (Gen. 9: 13)

Administration – four living creatures, lion (King), calf (sacrifice, heir) man (mediator), eagle (deity).

 

Marilyn.

 

I,do not believe Jesus was there when we are shown the vision in Rev 4:1. Read it....the Father is there but no Jesus. No one is praising Jesus, just the Father. 

Go to chapter 5 and we still only see the Father and he is holding a scroll....still no mention of Jesus until 5:6. 

So, if you believe Jesus and the father are in some high up place where nobody is allowed except the big 3, well clearly this was not the place because lots of people and things and angels are present here. 

But no Jesus.......until 5:6. 

Why not? 

Where’s Bill? Errrrr, where’s Jesus? 

HE IS STILL ON EARTH BEING AN OBEDIENT SON AND DYING FORMTHE SINS OF THE WORLD!  So far, this explanation is the best one for me. I’m open to receive other explanations you have though, besides he is hanging out in some far away place, so lay it on me sister. 

Edited March 1, 2019 by Spock