Evidence VS. Proof

[enoob57]

3 hours ago, Vince said:

Could you be a little more clear?  Are you saying that relying on the Bible to prove god wrote the Bible is logically sound because I had a beginning?

In the eternity past before created elements God tells us He Being Spirit in 3 Persons Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Now The Word 'IS' explained as (His Son, Creator as spoke into existence and written Word) the eternal presence being The Living Word John 1 -so how else could God approach you?

[TomatoHorse]

@Abdicate I didn't say that if God showed up I wouldn't believe. In fact, I said that I think I would.

I was a Christian for almost 30 years. I had what I would describe as a very close walk with God. I worshipped and witnessed to others. @Walk Softly I actually used the "Presuppositional" approach that you are using in this very thread   drawing from guys like Greg Bahnsen and Cornelius Van Til.

I read "the practice of the presence of God" by Brother Lawrence and put it into practice. I read and memorized whole books of the Bible, including Romans and Philippians. I had an earnest love for the Lord within me, and a zealous desire to obey his teachings in every aspect of my life. 

It's not as though I am a hard-hearted cynic. I want to believe and would much rather be a Christian than not. That's why I'm posting on forums such as this one.

Edited February 20, 2019 by TomatoHorse

[Walk Softly]

2 minutes ago, TomatoHorse said:

Greg Bahnsen and Cornelius Van Ti

We have a lot in common.  They were fantastic teachers.  They have inspired much of my writings.  Obviously. 

4 minutes ago, TomatoHorse said:

 

I read and memorized whole books of the Bible, including Romans and Philippians. I had an earnest love for the Lord within me, and a zealous desire to obey his teachings in every aspect of my life. 

It's not as though I am a hard-hearted cynic. I want to believe and would much rather be a Christian than not. That's why I'm posting on forums such as this one.

What happened?  If it's personal and you don't want to share, no worries.  Or if you'd rather move to PM, I'm 100% ok with that. 

With your knowledge of pressup apologetics, I feel certain we can have great conversations.  

[JustPassingThru]

7 hours ago, Vince said:

I was a devout christian for 18 years.  I believed he existed, I was told I was saved I told others of the gospel of Jesus etc.  Probably more than most Christians do.  

Yeah, me too, I taught an Adult Bible Study, was in charge of the Youth Group, was the organizer and cook for Saturday's Men's Breakfast and work day, helped out where ever needed in Sunday School and played in the Worship Band, like you said, a devout Christian, ...then I became born again child of God, ...big difference!

So Vince, in total humility and kindness, since you don't believe God exists, ...Why are you here? What is it to you if we want to believe in a God that doesn't exist, ...please, tell us what you have found that is better, more rewarding that what we have chosen to believe! 

[TomatoHorse]

On 2/20/2019 at 1:48 PM, Walk Softly said:

We have a lot in common.  They were fantastic teachers.  They have inspired much of my writings.  Obviously. 

What happened?  If it's personal and you don't want to share, no worries.  Or if you'd rather move to PM, I'm 100% ok with that. 

With your knowledge of pressup apologetics, I feel certain we can have great conversations.  

I agree! 

I think it could be best to discuss in thread posts, that way others can benefit or interact as appropriate.  Or view later for posterity. I do have a thought, though: Perhaps we should split logic, nature, and morality into their own separate threads. Each is its own topic and our posts will get huge if we try to deal with all 3 at the same time.

In terms of "what happened?" nothing major or traumatic. It was like an iceberg that slowly cracked into smaller and smaller pieces over time. A doubt here, a suspicious thing there, an argument / counter-argument there, until eventually they all added up to where I would describe myself as more of an agnostic with Christian sympathies now.

[choir loft]

On 2/18/2019 at 2:41 PM, Vince said:

So you have no evidence.  You also admit then that you believe contrary to any evidence. 

 

On 2/18/2019 at 3:20 PM, Vince said:

Then where is your evidence?  

Fools demand evidence, but it is not evidence they seek.  

What they want is to be justified in their foolishness.(*)  That cannot happen because it is their own conscience and their own mind that irritates their awareness unto hatred of all that is light and truth.

This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. - Jesus as quoted by John 3:19

Evidence is not the issue.  Suppression of evidence is what is at hand.

"What a fool believes he sees,

no wise man can reason away."

- WHAT A FOOL BELIEVES  Doobie Brothers 1980

The cure for ignorance is knowledge.

There is no cure for stupid.

- John Wayne 

 

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

(*) Secular definition of a fool is stupidity.  It's all that to be sure, but the Biblical definition, Solomon's definition, of a fool can be gleaned from the pages of Proverbs.  A fool is a clever intelligent person who has a complete and total disregard for the consequences of his actions.  A fool cannot be persuaded to abandon his foolishness and will likely die from them - all the while blaming everyone else for his behavior - including God.

[Steve_S]

7 hours ago, choir loft said:

Fools demand evidence, but it is not evidence they seek.  

What they want is to be justified in their foolishness.(*)  That cannot happen because it is their own conscience and their own mind that irritates their awareness unto hatred of all that is light and truth.

This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. - Jesus as quoted by John 3:19

Evidence is not the issue.  Suppression of evidence is what is at hand.

"What a fool believes he sees,

no wise man can reason away."

- WHAT A FOOL BELIEVES  Doobie Brothers 1980

The cure for ignorance is knowledge.

There is no cure for stupid.

- John Wayne 

 

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

(*) Secular definition of a fool is stupidity.  It's all that to be sure, but the Biblical definition, Solomon's definition, of a fool can be gleaned from the pages of Proverbs.  A fool is a clever intelligent person who has a complete and total disregard for the consequences of his actions.  A fool cannot be persuaded to abandon his foolishness and will likely die from them - all the while blaming everyone else for his behavior - including God.

Poster removed from thread.