Mid Trib rapture anyone?

[Marilyn C]

43 minutes ago, Spock said:

Great visual Marilyn.  This photo may represent the 7th bowl....rather than the 6th seal. 

The “bowl” earthquake is the granddaddy of all quakes. Rev 16:18

Hi Spock,

I`m glad you liked the pic. Now can you please tell me how civilization as we know it can go on when EVERY MOUNTAIN AND EVERY ISLAND, (top of mountains in the sea) are moved out of their places. That will be a humungous shaking of the whole planet, the likes of which has not been nor will be again. The whole planet will shake!

If that was the 6th seal in the picture then all those skyscrapers would be toppled. Yes it would represent the 7th bowl, but I say also the 6th seal.

Marilyn.

[Marilyn C]

8 hours ago, Spock said:

Great stuff Marilyn.........

but.........

can you show me in scripture that that thinking is correct?  

In other words, it sounds like you INFER that to be the case.....a thought that came out of your imagination, not out of the Bible. 

I personally believe the four horsemen (seals 1-4) have already ridden.  I think I can support my thinking better than you can support yours but guess what?  I believe my thinking is also inferred from reading the text. I inferred that when the Lamb took the book and open the scrolls he did this shortly after his ascension. It really doesn’t say that, but I infer it does. 

Believing the seals are an overview of the 70th week of Daniel to me is an even greater stretch of thinking than my theory on where to place the seals. And to be honest my sister.....I read what you said, I pondered it, I went back into the Bible are read chapters 6,7, and 8 again in particular .........and found that I just can’t make that leap of faith that you made.  You may be right......but my gut and my mind say you are not. 

Thanks for sharing. In love,

spock

Hi spock,

So glad you enjoyed your `holiday to Canada,` (lol) illustration. So you want proof, and rightly so. Let`s look at Genesis 1 & 2.

Genesis 1 - 2:4. God created the heavens and earth with different elements on each of the 6 days & rest on the 7th day. (OK?)

Genesis 2: 5 - 25. God gives details of man & woman whom we see were created in Gen. 1: 25 & 26. Then we read of the animals in Gen. 2: 19, whereas God created them in Gen. 1: 25 previous to man.

So you can see that just reading straight through Gen. 1 & 2, people can think that there are two creations. (People have asked me that.) But logically we know that God has given the Overview of Creation and then gone on to write the details of some special part- man & woman.

How`s that, bro, helpful?

Marilyn.

[Spock]

29 minutes ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Spock,

I`m glad you liked the pic. Now can you please tell me how civilization as we know it can go on when EVERY MOUNTAIN AND EVERY ISLAND, (top of mountains in the sea) are moved out of their places. That will be a humungous shaking of the whole planet, the likes of which has not been nor will be again. The whole planet will shake!

If that was the 6th seal in the picture then all those skyscrapers would be toppled. Yes it would represent the 7th bowl, but I say also the 6th seal.

Marilyn.

Good morning Marilyn! A top of the morning to you my sister.....

Honestly, I really don’t think I need to prove anything because all I have to say is the trumpets FOLLOW THE SEALS IN THE book of Revelation.

seals.....chapter 6

trumpets.....chapters 8 and 9

Nevertheless, Spock’s timeline puts the 6th seal at the 3 year mark, which is quickly followed by the ecologically devastating first four trumpets.....not to mention the abomination thingy thrown in.

I agree, from the time of the rapture/6th seal, all hell will break loose here on earth and life won’t be the same. The 5th and 6th trumpets during the first half of the last 3.5 years will have the earth drunk on its side. And of course it won’t get any easier till Christ comes back.

4 years of Hell on Earth Marilyn, which all begins with the opening of the dreaded 6th seal. Civilization as we know will limp on for four more years of utter chaos, death, and destruction. 

Until the SAVIOR says enough is enough......

i hope this satisfies you. 

Spock

[Marilyn C]

29 minutes ago, Spock said:

Good morning Marilyn! A top of the morning to you my sister.....

Honestly, I really don’t think I need to prove anything because all I have to say is the trumpets FOLLOW THE SEALS IN THE book of Revelation.

seals.....chapter 6

trumpets.....chapters 8 and 9

Nevertheless, Spock’s timeline puts the 6th seal at the 3 year mark, which is quickly followed by the ecologically devastating first four trumpets.....not to mention the abomination thingy thrown in.

I agree, from the time of the rapture/6th seal, all hell will break loose here on earth and life won’t be the same. The 5th and 6th trumpets during the first half of the last 3.5 years will have the earth drunk on its side. And of course it won’t get any easier till Christ comes back.

4 years of Hell on Earth Marilyn, which all begins with the opening of the dreaded 6th seal. Civilization as we know will limp on for four more years of utter chaos, death, and destruction. 

Until the SAVIOR says enough is enough......

i hope this satisfies you. 

Spock

Hi Spock,

Thanks bro, and yes the sun is shinning and God is faithfully moving in our lives and conversation. I do have more for you...

Now you would have to agree that God does do an overview sometimes and then the details, just as we do sometimes in our conversation. That of itself is not sufficient proof, though, as we know.

So....SPECIFICALLY where do you read in Revelation that the Lord begins the judgments? And I mean that shows the Lord Himself dealing out the judgments, and not just enumerating the judgments.

Marilyn.

[Spock]

45 minutes ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi spock,

So glad you enjoyed your `holiday to Canada,` (lol) illustration. So you want proof, and rightly so. Let`s look at Genesis 1 & 2.

Genesis 1 - 2:4. God created the heavens and earth with different elements on each of the 6 days & rest on the 7th day. (OK?)

Genesis 2: 5 - 25. God gives details of man & woman whom we see were created in Gen. 1: 25 & 26. Then we read of the animals in Gen. 2: 19, whereas God created them in Gen. 1: 25 previous to man.

So you can see that just reading straight through Gen. 1 & 2, people can think that there are two creations. (People have asked me that.) But logically we know that God has given the Overview of Creation and then gone on to write the details of some special part- man & woman.

How`s that, bro, helpful?

Marilyn.

This is good stuff Marilyn. Yes, it appears God did provide an overview of man’s creation here in Ch 1 and then provided details of that creation in chapter 2.  Nice catch.  

But that is not proof God did this with the Seals. He “might have” and I even previously said this (you might be right) but I don’t think you are.

[Spock]

11 minutes ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Spock,

Thanks bro, and yes the sun is shinning and God is faithfully moving in our lives and conversation. I do have more for you...

Now you would have to agree that God does do an overview sometimes and then the details, just as we do sometimes in our conversation. That of itself is not sufficient proof, though, as we know.

So....SPECIFICALLY where do you read in Revelation that the Lord begins the judgments? And I mean that shows the Lord Himself dealing out the judgments, and not just enumerating the judgments.

Marilyn.

I believe the sixth seal tells us when the wrath of God begins....see Rev 6:16-17. 

I then believe everything SUBSEQUENT is the wrath of God, better known as the Day of the Lord. (All trumpets and bowls) 

[Marilyn C]

41 minutes ago, Spock said:

I believe the sixth seal tells us when the wrath of God begins....see Rev 6:16-17. 

I then believe everything SUBSEQUENT is the wrath of God, better known as the Day of the Lord. (All trumpets and bowls) 

Hi Spock,

However we need to see exactly where the Lord Himself is shown beginning the judgments. Not just when we think....

So, if you would like to follow me on this line of thinking for a little bit, maybe we can see something important. Now I know you do like Jewish events etc, so what Convocation (Feast) did God give Israel to enact, for their National Day of repentance. And what did the High Priest do that day?

Marilyn.

Hint - Leviticus 23

[Spock]

7 minutes ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Spock,

However we need to see exactly where the Lord Himself is shown beginning the judgments. Not just when we think....

So, if you would like to follow me on this line of thinking for a little bit, maybe we can see something important. Now I know you do like Jewish events etc, so what Convocation (Feast) did God give Israel to enact, for their National Day of repentance. And what did the High Priest do that day?

Marilyn.

Hint - Leviticus 23

You Kippur

I guess he made an offering after entering the holy of holies....

Edited March 10, 2019 by Spock

[iamlamad]

7 hours ago, Spock said:

I will be discussing two matters in this rebuttal:

1.  Gog Magog War of Ezekiel 38/39

2. The timing of the 7th trumpet

1. I have studied the passage in Ezekiel 38/39 and I am aware of the voices that say Gog War=Armageddon. I studied their reasoning and compared it with scripture and I determined......

that argument is found wanting! 

I cannot support a GogWar=Armageddon.  There are soooooooo many discrepancies to make your head spin. Yes, there are some similarities, I will give you that, but the discrepancies are too significant for my liking. I’m sure you have read the reasons not to see them as the same and obviously you rejected this so I won’t take up your time to say things you already know and have rejected unless you insist on me to show you. 

Again, you “may be” right, but I wouldn’t bet the house on it. 

 

2. As for the midpoint of Daniels week HAVING TO BE AT THE 7th trumpet.......I’m not so sure about that.

I know the 7th trumpet is discussed in Rev 11:15, but this chapter was all about the two witnesses. If you believe the two witnesses do their thing in the second half of the week, as I do, then the 7th trumpet I believe is released toward THE END of the week, not in the middle as you believe. Just because chapter 12 follows chapter 11 doesn’t mean all the events that played out in chapter 11 have to precede anything that happens in chapter 12.  I believe you are making a very serious error thinking that. These are not chronological chapters. These chapters are basically TIME OUT chapters to provide details of the main players of the book. 

Chapter 12 is a totally different subject that is being discussed. I do not believe you can say chapters 11, 12, and 13 are CHRONOLOGICAL. These are interludes and I believe the purpose is to give details regarding the main players during this week. So, chapter 11 imo has a timeline from just before the midpoint to just before the return of Christ. Chapter 12 and chapter 13 I believe both have a similar timeline because all 3 primarily come into play especially during the last 3.5 years. Again, I don’t believe you can say with any certainty the 7th trumpet has to be released at the midpoint.  Even the pre wrath gurus, Rosenthal and Van Kampen, place the 7th trumpet at the end of the week, not in the middle. In fact, I’m pretty sure your opinion that the 7th trumpet is smack dab in the middle is a minority opinion of all the Bible prophecy experts writing out there. Not that your opinion can’t be better than theirs....I just don’t believe it is on this one. 

11.....2 good witnesses

12....Satan and his dealings with believers 

13.....2 bad guys

So, if you make this conclusion....the 7th trumpet in 11:15 must be at the midpoint (AOD), I believe this is faulty exegesis on your part.  I don’t believe we really know what trumpet sound is at the midpoint so I can’t be dogmatic about this like you seem to be. If you have BETTER evidence to impress me with, I’m here and always open to learn. 

PS. Even our illustrious Sister, Marilyn C shows the 7th trumpet at THE END of the week. So, my challenge to you LA is to show me through scripture only, why you see the 7th trumpet in the middle of the week. Can’t wait.....

I see the midpoint "intermission" (my term) starting in chapter 10 and going to chapter 14. All these events are events that must and will take place before the first vial is poured out. But that being said, every event INSIDE this intermission is also in timing order.  In other words, 11:1-2 will take place before 11:3, but JUST before. And both of these events will take place before the 7th trumpet sounds - exactly in the order John wrote them.  But there is a caveat: 11:3 is just the moment the two witnesses SHOW UP. Then verses 11:1-2 are only the STARTING time for the countdown of the city being trampled.  Verse 11:3 is only the starting point for the countdown of the two witnesses starting their witnessing. 

What about 11:4 - through 11:13? They are written as a parenthesis - taking the reader down the path of the last half of the week with the two witnesses only, showing us THEIR time to the end of the week. Then when we get to the 14th verse, John snaps back to real time, OUT of the intermission, and has the 7th trumpet sounded. Then it is right back into the intermission.  John is forced to do this, because he was a real stickler to get things in perfect chronological order, and there are events just before the midpoint, and events just after the midpoint that MUST be written in chronological order. 

This brings up a question: how in the world to write of 5 parallel events (parallel in time) from the midpoint to the end of the week, and do it chronologically?  John is "saved by the bell" so to speak, because each of these 5 parallel paths (countdowns) to the end have a staggered beginning. In other words, the 11:1-2, 42 month countdown, will begin just before the 1260 days countdown of the two witnesses. 

Do you know what 11:1-2 is all about? I asked the Lord. It is the man of sin entering Jerusalem. He MUST get to Jerusalem, for in 3.5 days, he will enter the temple and stop the daily sacrifices, declaring he is God.  The two witnesses show up right then, because HE SHOWED UP. But when he comes, he will come with Gentile armies. THEY will trample the city. 

Notice carefully, there are 5 events that start on or near the midpoint and go to the end of the week.  Jesus' words to me:

"Every time I mentioned an event that would start at the midpoint, and go to the end of the week, I always included the 3 1/2 year period of time." 

This is why  I KNOW, when someone places the two witnesses in the first half, they are in error.  NO ONE imagines that in 11:3 the 42 months of trampling of 11:2 have already passed. NO ONE imagines that in 12:4 the 1260 days of testifying have already passed. NO ONE imagines that in 12:7 the 1260 days of fleeing are over.  No one imagines in 13:6 that the 42 months of authority has passed. 

Why then would ANYONE imagine that the several verses of the two witnesses of their 1260 days, would take place before verse 14? It is a PARENTHESIS! Their 1260 days DON'T take place before verse 14.  In truth, their 126o days of witnessing will not end until just 3 1/2 days before the end of the week.

THEREFORE, for Chronology:

42 months of trampling countdown probably begins  3.50 days before the abomination event that will divide the week.

The 1260 days witnessing countdown will begin 3.51 before the abomination. 

Then  1/2 days later, the man of sin will enter the temple and declare he is God.  The 7th trumpet sounds in heaven.

Then two or three seconds later, those in Judea begin their flight into the wilderness.

Also two or three seconds later, Michael goes after Satan to take him down. (the 7th trumpet is his signal to go.)

See how perfectly chronological this is? 

Then John goes to chapter 13 and starts the countdown of 42 months of authority. [Perhaps this is only seconds or minutes or hours after the midpoint - marked by the 7th trumpet. Then from verse 6 or so on to the end of the chapter, another parenthesis - John taking us down the path of the Beast and False Prophet to the end of the week - but OUTSIDE John's chronology. 

In other words, chapter 14 begins VERY SOON after the midpoint. 

Therefore, you SHOULD BE SURE the 7th trumpet sounds in heaven at the midpoint: Rev. 12:6 And Daniel 9:27 proves that point. The event that stops the daily sacrifices will divide the week. 

this chapter [11] was all about the two witnesses.   NO IT ISN'T! They are included, but this chapter is about every event that must happen just before the midpoint: the 42 months of trampling, the 1260 days of witnessing, the 7th trumpet and finally the transfer of the world from Satan to Jesus Christ (the most important part of the chapter).

If you believe the two witnesses do their thing in the second half of the week, as I do, then the 7th trumpet I believe is released toward THE END of the week, not in the middle as you believe  NO! For the reasons stated above. You just don't understand the length of time God spent with me teaching me this chapter! This is where God BEGAN teaching me, telling me I could find the exact midpoint "clearly marked." 

Just because chapter 12 follows chapter 11 doesn’t mean all the events that played out in chapter 11 have to precede anything that happens in chapter 12.  Everything except the parenthesis WILL precede everything in chapter 12. Remember the axiom. 

Chapter 12 is a totally different subject that is being discussed. I do not believe you can say chapters 11, 12, and 13 are CHRONOLOGICAL. Why would you even imagine God the Holy Spirit would NOT have John write in chronological order? Look at these three chapters this way: in chapter 11, God introduces John to the two witnesses. In chapter 12, God introduces John to the Dragon, and in chapter 13, God introduces John to the Beast through which the Dragon will operate.  I think God chose the right order. 

OF COURSE they are chronological! The 42 months of authority countdown will start some unknown time AFTER the 1260 days fleeing countdown, which in turn will start some unknown time after the 1260 days of witnessing countdown. Get the picture? These all have staggered beginnings: two before the midpoint and three after the midpoint. 

Speaking of the midpoint, did you ever stop to consider that the midpoint MUST be in these three chapters, 11 - 13? Why? Because these three chapters contain the beginning point of the 5 countdowns to the end. You can be quite sure, the 42 months countdown of authority is not going to be much time after the fleeing countdown. Perhaps all three chapters cover 4 days time. 

So, chapter 11 imo has a timeline from just before the midpoint to just before the return of Christ.   Many people imagine that, but it won't work. There is ONLY 3.5 years left. NONE of these countdowns can be added to another: they must be parallel, all taking place at the same time.  You must spend time thinking about Daniel 9:27 and the word "midst." It comes from a Hebrew word meaning to divide in half. John's 5 mentions of the 3.5 year period of time PROVES that the week is divided in two equal halves. Then consider what Jesus said: when they SEE the abomination, FLEE! In other words, the abomination that divides the week absolutely MUST be a few verses before 12:6. Spend some timing thinking about that. 

Another reason your statement is impossible: chapter 14 is the warning NOT to take the mark. Chapter 13 tells us about the mark, but chapter 14 is the warning sent out to refuse this mark. Do you imagine that God would send a warning after the fact? Or will you be forces to push the image and mark to after the week?  No, it is the enforcing of the image and mark that will CAUSE the days of GT Jesus spoke of. 

Of course, if you imagine God chose to have John write things in any order, I guess anything can be imagined.  However, if we leave things exactly in the order written, they make PERFECT sense. It is when someone has a wrong theory, such as the rapture in chapter 12, they are forces to imagine all kinds of things to make it fit - such as John NOT writing things in the right order.

These are not chronological chapters.   Your doctrine will be messed up of you proceed with this idea! Must I write the AXIOM again? Your theory will be proven wrong!

Again, I don’t believe you can say with any certainty the 7th trumpet has to be released at the midpoint.  OF COURSE it is certain: I would not say it otherwise! Daniel 9:27 [MIDST], Matthew 24 when Jesus tells them to flee, and 12:6 prove this without question.  This is the VERY FIRST THING God sent me to find: the midpoint "clearly marked." 

Do you also doubt that the 7th vial ends the week? Do you also doubt the 7th seal starts the week?  I am telling you the best way I know, that Jesus Christ, the head of the church TOLD me that the entire 70th week was "clearly marked" and all with the same marker.  I understand He did not say this to you - but we can learn from other's revelations. 

 Even the pre wrath gurus, Rosenthal and Van Kampen, place the 7th trumpet at the end of the week, not in the middle.   Oh well. They were wrong on many points: their biggest mistake not to realize or understand that the signs in the sun and moon will be seen TWICE - first with a blood moon as the sign of the Day of the Lord, then again 7 years later with an invisible moon [total darkness] as the sign of the coming of the Lord to Armageddon. Do you understand, their theory causes MASSIVE rearranging of Revelation; they insist the days of GT must fall in the seals - before seal 6. It is preposterous! Prewrath is probably the worst false theory of rapture timing ever. (I have both their books.) It is a fact - a sad fact - they did not recognize that 11:4 through 11:13 were written as a parenthesis.

I’m pretty sure your opinion that the 7th trumpet is smack dab in the middle is a minority opinion of all the Bible prophecy experts writing out there.  None of them had Jesus Christ, the head of the church, send them to FIND the exact midpoint "clearly marked."

Question: do you imagine Daniel was mistake when he wrote the word "midst?" Do you wonder what could cause the daily sacrifices to cease? God has given us clues: Antiochus Epiphanes became a TYPE of the Beast of Revelation by doing exactly what the Beast will do: enter the most holy place in the temple, polluting it, and stopping the daily sacrifices. 

Do you imagine that when the man of sin enters the temple, he will NOT stop the daily sacrifices? 

If you have BETTER evidence to impress me with, I’m here and always open to learn.   This is the very reason I am willing to spend time with you!  ?  I have hope!  Let me say this again: Daniel tells us the same individual that confirms the week will divide the week.

²⁷ And he will enter into a binding and irrevocable covenant with the many for one week (seven years), but in the middle of the week he will stop the sacrifice and grain offering [for the remaining three and one-half years]... [Amplified]

HOW will he divide the week? Jesus, quoting Daniel, tells us there will be an abomination. Daniel tells us Antiochus placed an abomination in the most holy place in the temple. We know from the Old Covenant that once the temple is polluted, it must be cleansed before it can be used again for sacrifices. In other words, the moment the man of sin will enter the most holy place in the temple, the sacrifices MUST stop. They will need to find a red heifer without spot or blemish. But at that moment the Dragon goes after those who fled and there is NO TIME for cleansing the temple.

Paul tells us what that abomination will be. Jesus told those in Judea to flee the moment that see it. Rev. 12:6 tells us when that fleeing begins. In other words, the abomination MUST take place seconds before 12:6.  God told me I would find it "clearly marked." Then He said the beginning and end of the week would use the same marker.  You are free to doubt this, but you will end up wrong. I am absolutely dogmatic on this point. 

Even our illustrious Sister, Marilyn C shows the 7th trumpet at THE END of the week  Truthfully, I disagree with most of her posts.

Notice also that Daniel told of the time of trouble, worse than any other time [12:1] and tells us there will be 3 1/2 years before it ends.  WHERE in Revelation does that time of trouble begin? It begins in Rev. 12 when the dragon goes after those that flee. This is yet another  proof of where the midpoint is in Revelation.

I wonder: how many proofs do you need?

[iamlamad]

29 minutes ago, Spock said:

This is good stuff Marilyn. Yes, it appears God did provide an overview of man’s creation here in Ch 1 and then provided details of that creation in chapter 2.  Nice catch.  

But that is not proof God did this with the Seals. He “might have” and I even previously said this (you might be right) but I don’t think you are.

I agree with Spock. Yes, God did give us details later in Genesis on the creation. So what? That does not mean He would EVER do it again. We have to go by the words in Revelation.

Edited March 10, 2019 by iamlamad