Mid Trib rapture anyone?

[Spock]

5 hours ago, ARGOSY said:

I see my post trib beliefs are not welcome in this thread, even though the other views are found wanting . Nice?

Occam's razor, why complicate a view if the simplest works without contradiction. Eg if you coincide every time there's a great earthquake, every time mountains move, every time there is a great war, every final trumpet, every time the lamb conquers kings of the Earth, then a simple picture emerges.

 

Regarding wrath, there is always wrath here, even during current times there is the wrath of God and the rise and fall of nations.  But there is final wrath , the great winepress of wrath outside Jerusalem, always placed at the second coming. That is the wrath we avoid, the good harvest of Rev 14 occurs before the harvest and winepress of wrath outside Jerusalem.

Argosy,

it was not my intention to upset anyone with my “please no post Trib rapture” comment, but I feel pretty certain that line of thinking is in error and I’ve debated and discussed that enough with people to where it is not fun anymore. 

So, my purpose was to discuss a pre Trib rapture vs and Mid Trib rapture ONLY here because that is where I am at and pondering.  I don’t think that is an unreasonable request to exclude post Trib rapture talk knowing that we have plenty of other threads on that or people who promote post Trib rapture could start their own threads for conversation. 

The bottom line for me was not to argue again pre Trib vs post Trib, but rather pre Trib vs a Mid Trib.  My timeline proposed a rapture about 3 years into the week, about half a year before the midpoint/AOD.  I REALLY didn’t want to cloud the discussion with post Trib talk. I know people like you believe in that so,I hope you can see it was not my intention to muzzle your beliefs. I think you know enough about me to know I am not like that.

[Spock]

7 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Spock,

As this is your thread I need to focus on your questions and comments & have told ARGOSY that we can do that topic later. Here is the first part of your written timeline.

Spock`s Timeline.

Seals 1-4 maybe already opened in past; if not in past immediately after peace treaty, start of week

Seals 5 and 6 released around the 3 year mark

Rapture at 6th seal

Trumpets 1-4 released

Midpoint....3.5 years....

 

My Comments.

I see 4 difficulties with that, so let`s discuss.

1.Three years - what is happening there, (from scripture) as it is the tribulation?

 

2.The martyrs. (5^th Seal) We are only told that the martyrs are those who do not take the mark of the beast & that is from the midpoint onwards when the anti-Christ persecutes them. So I would move the 5^th seal to the midpoint. (Rev. 20: 4)

 

3.The Great Earthquake. (6^th Seal) Now God has told us that He will only once more `shake the heavens and earth.` (Heb. 12: 26) Looking at the 6^th Seal we read that the heavens and the earth are shaken by the Lord.

`..sun became black….moon became like blood….stars fell from heaven, sky rolled up like a scroll, and every mountain and island was moved out of its place.` (Rev. 6: 12 - 14)

The Prophet Joel tells us when that great event occurs. The `valley of Decision` is the valley of Jehoshaphat outside Jerusalem where all the world`s armoies have been gathered.

`Multitude, multitudes in the valley of decision! For the Day of the Lord is near in the valley of decision. The sun and moon will grow dark, and the stars will diminish their brightness. The Lord also will roar from Zion, (heaven) and utter His voice from Jerusalem; the heavens and earth will shake,...`(Joel 3: 14 - 16)

Thus the Great Earthquake of the 6^th seal refers, I believe to just before the Lord returns in power and great glory with His angelic army, at the end of the tribulation.

 

 4. The Trumpets 1 - 4. You are perhaps thinking that they will occur during the 6 months before the midpoint. That could happen, except we see that the Lord, figured as the High Priest in the heavenly sanctuary, initiates these catastrophes. And that will commence the tribulation, for He is the executor of the Father`s will. (the judgment scroll) Thus I believe they are at the start of the tribulation.

Looking forward to our discussion. (BTW you always make me think as you ask interesting questions, so go for it.)

 Marilyn.

This is awesome M....thanks for doing this.

To start with, can you show me somewhere in scripture where the entire week of Daniel is called TRIBULATION. Even the book of Revelation never mentions 7 years but only 3.5 years. I know the OT May call it the time of Jacobs trouble but I don’t believe it specifically says it has to be 7 years of trouble. If you have anything on this, I’m all ears.

And of course Daniel 9 which talks about the final week does not really say the entire week is a time of tribulation. Now, what I see is this: a covenant being confirmed, a peace treaty maybe, which to me signifies a time of peace where people are saying PEACE AND SAFETY.  The Jews have rebuilt their temple and resumed sacrifices so all appears calm, unlike what we see going on out there now. So, I believe it is possible for 3 years things can be “tribulation free” until the 6th seal occurs, which I believe the rapture occurs as well.

the AC rises up to be the Beast he is described in Rev 13...and in a short time, does his AOD thingy, immediately following the shocking cataclysm events of trumpets 1-4, when the world will be reeling like a drunkard looking for answers and a leader to emerge.

This is all speculation of course, just trying to see if it fits. I do believe there may be a war BEFORE the peace treaty and I’m thinking the Gog War of Ezekiel 38/39.  My thinking is simply if this plays out like it says in the Bible, then God breaks his silence and supernaturally defeats the enemies of the Jews while they attempt to plunder Israel for its vast resources. They fail, God wins and the Jews now clearly have a wake up call...God is alive and well!  At this point, the Messianic message will be coming forth loud and clear and the remnant Jews will probably be converting to believing Jesus as the Messiah and will be ready to leave Jerusalem knowing the word regarding the soon to be midpoint activities of the AC. 

As for the 5th seal....I really am not clear on the timing of this. I can see this a few ways. I see these souls representing all time (2000yrs) Christian martyrs. They are impatient but then they receive their white robes and told to wait a LITTLE WHILE LONGER.  I wonder if they are told to wait until the time of the rapture, which perhaps could make  the 5th and 6th seals separated by a very short time.  A very short time could even be 3 years. Like I said, I’m not dogmatic about this, This could be meaning, wait until the Church age ends, which could be very soon....6th seal. 

Oh, just to be sure you understand, this timeline was born when I began thinking Rev 12:5 may be the rapture. Rev 12:5 is clearly to me around the midpoint, not pre 70th week. I know you and LAmad don’t see a rapture in 12:5 but I do. I understand I could be wrong in my interpretation of that passage Rev 12:1-5, so if I am, the chances of a pre Trib rapture go up for me because then it is more likely the 6th seal is opened BEFORE the peace treaty. But I don’t want to go there, just thinking out loud. For now, my main purpose is to discuss this one thing....IS THIS NEAR MIDPOINT RAPTURE POSSIBLE. 

Thanks,

spock

Edited March 18, 2019 by Spock

[ARGOSY]

32 minutes ago, Spock said:

Argosy,

it was not my intention to upset anyone with my “please no post Trib rapture” comment, but I feel pretty certain that line of thinking is in error and I’ve debated and discussed that enough with people to where it is not fun anymore. 

So, my purpose was to discuss a pre Trib rapture vs and Mid Trib rapture ONLY here because that is where I am at and pondering.  I don’t think that is an unreasonable request to exclude post Trib rapture talk knowing that we have plenty of other threads on that or people who promote post Trib rapture could start their own threads for conversation. 

The bottom line for me was not to argue again pre Trib vs post Trib, but rather pre Trib vs a Mid Trib.  My timeline proposed a rapture about 3 years into the week, about half a year before the midpoint/AOD.  I REALLY didn’t want to cloud the discussion with post Trib talk. I know people like you believe in that so,I hope you can see it was not my intention to muzzle your beliefs. I think you know enough about me to know I am not like that.

All good, fair enough.  Just in your own time, privately, think about the logic of keeping things simple.  When there is a significant matching event overlapping them nearly every time. Think about what kind of tribulation you end up with like that.

[Spock]

2 minutes ago, ARGOSY said:

All good, fair enough.  Just in your own time, privately, think about the logic of keeping things simple.  When there is a significant matching event overlapping them nearly every time. Think about what kind of tribulation you end up with like that.

Thanks.

btw, lord willing, my wife and I will be in Tanzania in August. Looking forward to seeing your continent. Do you live in South Africa?   

I think the CDC recommends us getting a bunch of shots:

hepatitus A

typhoid

cholera

meds, not shots, for malaria

Does this sound about right?  Lol

[ARGOSY]

14 minutes ago, Spock said:

Thanks.

btw, lord willing, my wife and I will be in Tanzania in August. Looking forward to seeing your continent. Do you live in South Africa?   

I think the CDC recommends us getting a bunch of shots:

hepatitus A

typhoid

cholera

meds, not shots, for malaria

Does this sound about right?  Lol

I'm from Cape Town, South Africa, things are much more first world here. Yes I would follow their advice,  I always take malaria pills if going north of Durban,  the pills have no side effects and do a good job. The other diseases, prevalent too.  

Very exciting! I've never been to Tanzania before. Are you going to see the wildebeest in Serengeti?

[Spock]

3 minutes ago, ARGOSY said:

I'm from Cape Town, South Africa, things are much more first world here. Yes I would follow their advice,  I always take malaria pills if going north of Durban,  the pills have no side effects and do a good job. The other diseases, prevalent too.  

Very exciting! I've never been to Tanzania before. Are you going to see the wildebeest in Serengeti?

Yes. 

We were originally going to Capetown and then switched it to all Tanzania. (Sorry)  Bush safaris is 2hat we decided we desired the most: 

Arusha

tarangire national park

serengeti national park

ngorongoro conservation area

[ARGOSY]

Just now, Spock said:

Yes. 

We were originally going to Capetown and then switched it to all Tanzania. (Sorry)  Bush safaris is 2hat we decided we desired the most: 

Arusha

tarangire national park

serengeti national park

ngorongoro conservation area

Nice, Cape Town isn't a true reflection of Africa.  It's too colonial, but a very pretty city.  No big game here except baboons, the leopards are small and no one ever sees them. Good choice to see the real Africa.

[Spock]

6 minutes ago, ARGOSY said:

Nice, Cape Town isn't a true reflection of Africa.  It's too colonial, but a very pretty city.  No big game here except baboons, the leopards are small and no one ever sees them. Good choice to see the real Africa.

We love the thought of your coast, cape peninsula, Table Mountain,   and of course the WHALES  and their calves but we decided to do that trip another time. 

Edited March 18, 2019 by Spock

[Marilyn C]

8 hours ago, Spock said:

This is awesome M....thanks for doing this.

To start with, can you show me somewhere in scripture where the entire week of Daniel is called TRIBULATION. Even the book of Revelation never mentions 7 years but only 3.5 years. I know the OT May call it the time of Jacobs trouble but I don’t believe it specifically says it has to be 7 years of trouble. If you have anything on this, I’m all ears.

And of course Daniel 9 which talks about the final week does not really say the entire week is a time of tribulation. Now, what I see is this: a covenant being confirmed, a peace treaty maybe, which to me signifies a time of peace where people are saying PEACE AND SAFETY.  The Jews have rebuilt their temple and resumed sacrifices so all appears calm, unlike what we see going on out there now. So, I believe it is possible for 3 years things can be “tribulation free” until the 6th seal occurs, which I believe the rapture occurs as well.

the AC rises up to be the Beast he is described in Rev 13...and in a short time, does his AOD thingy, immediately following the shocking cataclysm events of trumpets 1-4, when the world will be reeling like a drunkard looking for answers and a leader to emerge.

This is all speculation of course, just trying to see if it fits. I do believe there may be a war BEFORE the peace treaty and I’m thinking the Gog War of Ezekiel 38/39.  My thinking is simply if this plays out like it says in the Bible, then God breaks his silence and supernaturally defeats the enemies of the Jews while they attempt to plunder Israel for its vast resources. They fail, God wins and the Jews now clearly have a wake up call...God is alive and well!  At this point, the Messianic message will be coming forth loud and clear and the remnant Jews will probably be converting to believing Jesus as the Messiah and will be ready to leave Jerusalem knowing the word regarding the soon to be midpoint activities of the AC. 

As for the 5th seal....I really am not clear on the timing of this. I can see this a few ways. I see these souls representing all time (2000yrs) Christian martyrs. They are impatient but then they receive their white robes and told to wait a LITTLE WHILE LONGER.  I wonder if they are told to wait until the time of the rapture, which perhaps could make  the 5th and 6th seals separated by a very short time.  A very short time could even be 3 years. Like I said, I’m not dogmatic about this, This could be meaning, wait until the Church age ends, which could be very soon....6th seal. 

Oh, just to be sure you understand, this timeline was born when I began thinking Rev 12:5 may be the rapture. Rev 12:5 is clearly to me around the midpoint, not pre 70th week. I know you and LAmad don’t see a rapture in 12:5 but I do. I understand I could be wrong in my interpretation of that passage Rev 12:1-5, so if I am, the chances of a pre Trib rapture go up for me because then it is more likely the 6th seal is opened BEFORE the peace treaty. But I don’t want to go there, just thinking out loud. For now, my main purpose is to discuss this one thing....IS THIS NEAR MIDPOINT RAPTURE POSSIBLE. 

Thanks,

spock

Hi Spock,

Off to the hair dressers soon, so this will just be part of my comments. So, bro....`Peace & Safety` you say. Let`s then look at what you think leads up to the 6th seal.

Seal 1. Conquering & conquering.

Seal 2. Killing & killing, taking peace from the earth.

Seal 3. Food very dear, leads to hunger.

Seal 4. One fourth of people killed - sword, hunger, death & beasts.

HELL followed - opened up

Seal 5.Martyrs

So do you think that is a time of `Peace & Safety?` Mmmmmm

 

(Note: Trumpet 5 Pit opened up)

 

Marilyn.

[Spock]

2 minutes ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Spock,

Off to the hair dressers soon, so this will just be part of my comments. So, bro....`Peace & Safety` you say. Let`s then look at what you think leads up to the 6th seal.

Seal 1. Conquering & conquering.

Seal 2. Killing & killing, taking peace from the earth.

Seal 3. Food very dear, leads to hunger.

Seal 4. One fourth of people killed - sword, hunger, death & beasts.

HELL followed - opened up

Seal 5.Martyrs

So do you think that is a time of `Peace & Safety?` Mmmmmm

 

(Note: Trumpet 5 Pit opened up)

 

Marilyn.

M.,

You forgot some previous things I’ve said.  

At this moment I believe the 4 horsemen were opened when Christ ascended to heaven. I suppose the 5th can be open anytime if not then.

so, remove the seals from the 70th week, trumpets haven’t sounded yet....what do you have AFTER A PEACE TREATY (perhaps the result of the Gog War)?  

Peace and safety.......until the floodgates open at the 3 year mark. Then you have.....

6th seal

4 trumpets

rapture

all from 3-3.5 years.....then the AOD.......